How much value do you put on urine?

[jsevering]

dumb question ... but wouldn't urine be a natural or natures biological lure prior to mating season .... one reason for winter meat fed urine... stronger urine with a somewhat higher sulfide content, seems the biological changes in the males and females wouldn't just happen overnight and there should be a time period where interest in urine or its actual biological content should start to be more beneficial at a set type, or am I off base with that line of thought...jim

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman your inferring again, one I have never stated my "norm" is one lure at a set I use bait and lure in combination always have and always will. You hang on one reference I made about strong call lure LOL. In fact again if I may inject my urine/gland mix at times would be it at a flat set with a turd, other times the gland/lure mix goes down the hole with bait and with another lure or not depends on the situation. I have made many punch hole style flat sets just as you through the years with multiple attractants used at most of them. Also Tom Miranda brought that concept out on video but he was not the first to do such either . So your inference of me using 2 drops and that being it at my trap sets as a majority is false period.

The T bone sets Again most of the time 2 smells coming from it. Great contrast in the summer green grass and a bleached out bone. travel way settings because of their activity patterns during the summer. Stands to reason.

Let Jim answer for himself I for one would like to hear what he has to say.

Urine useage? On my remakes every catch and it gets new sprayed urine around the catch circle. The only time it will get a misting is after a catch.

Fresh sets it is always a focused if used.

Again Tman your hearing the reason as to why and simply refuse to listen. No big deal keep,using the same things at the same places and catching coyotes.

Others will change things up out of a need not just doing it for the sake of such.

[trappincoyotes39]

Jim yes studies have shown that the highest attraction to urine is during the mating period and stands to reason as to why. It isn't about meat fed so much which adds sulfides and so does eating certain plant materials as well, as what pheromones are present in the urine at these times and other chemical compounds. The hardest part is trying to keep these as suspended in active in the urine as possible.

There is a study out there on urine and what inside of it has the most reactions by coyotes.

The urine collection process is something a few in the deer lure industry have spent a lot of time and money on because they are going to sell a lot of it and can warrant such collection methods and R&D , again trappers just do not consume near the volume needed to arrant single collection pee on a commercial basis like the hunting industry spending millions of dollars annually on such.

getting trappers to spend 20-30 per oz on pee well that will never happen

I also do not feel that urine in that regard outside of special circumstances would mean much to most trappers either.

Single source coyote lee will remain a small operation done by a few trappers.

[trappincoyotes39]

Page 27 and 28 of the information I posted under seasonal changes shows the break down of what parts of urines and such has the most attraction .

Here it is once again.

www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/98pubs/98-66.pdf

[trappnman]

you say-

So your inference of me using 2 drops and that being it at my trap sets as a majority is false period.


was an inference gleened after reading post after post after post after post where you stated you only use a small amount of lure, because you didn't want to overlure. 2 drops are your words, not mine. I fully understand you mean 8-10

I'm not quite sure your point throughout this thread-

guess it is summed up in I use urine not as a lure, but as a suspcion remover.

I don't understand why you would mist a remake with urine given your beleifs of urine use- aren't they already urine soaked?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman please find 5 post where I stated all,lure is 2 drops and singular at the majority of my sets

Your assuming things, strong call,lures close to a travel way yes I use less hasn't hurt me at all, but again I use the wind as much as possible. I probably get more sets per 4 oz of lure than many but again hasn't hurt me in the least as the volume smell for me is the bait at many sets, that in itself is a lure per say just cheaper by the volume.

Most standard lures probably 1/8 oz per set? Would be a good guess? Do I feel using such puts me at a disadvantage to those that might use 1/4 or more per set? Nope never found that to be the case. I have always stated many of my sets I want them to find it with their nose before their eyes. yet even with my lure and bait approach they seem to do just that.

My misting at a remake is not one for more urine as a suspicion or lure but as a cover scent dealing with all odors be it blood, gland secretions etc. Too help cover up smells on the trap even though I give them each a fast cleaning with a wire brush. My misting at a remake is to get rid of the focal point being the unclean trap more than anything.

The beauty of longer chain is if I want I can move the trap close to the edge of the catch circle and make my remake there as well at times.

Again each to their own.

[TRay]

I was wrong when I stated removing 100 % of coyotes in area as in most situations it's just not possible or cost efficient. My complaints stop when the killing stops so I am more in the mode of killing specific coyotes, but in areas of hard aerial hunting there may be very few to kill. Certain times if the year complete removal is possible but not on a large scale.
Lure burnout will not lead to 100% refusal, just a higher percent of refusals than I find acceptable. It is a complete judgement call on a trappers part on when this is happening.
Several old times have made the comment to me that you learn a lot more from coyotes you don't catch then the ones you do.

I didn't try to imply that lure avoidance is genetic, only that if you add together the percentage of coyotes year after year that may not respond to your lure after 5-6 years there may be some drop off in catch rate. This would probably be more likely in fur tapping where guys tend to use the same set/lure applications and catch the easy ones and move on.
When I talk about lure avoidance I am talking about both lure and bait as in my opinion they are fairly close.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tray I am sure most would understand what your stating and I agree with your summation. In the summer on sheep ranchers I always liked to remove every den within 3 miles of the sheep, leaned that the hard way as we all do starting out, you kill out the ones closest generally the suspects and think we have the world solved and then 2-3 weeks later more killing as that next group has moved up on those summer sheep pastures. So we try and kill out all of those denning coyotes within that 3 mile radius around them. In effect killing 100 percent in that area at that time. Pick up a few transients and everyone is happy until late fall for the most part.

Some areas just dictate more movement of coyotes even in the summer than others specially as the summer gets longer and those pups get bigger and more Mobil.

[trappnman]

sweet lord TC- please read my comment aobut 2 drops, then yours and then bang your head against the wall because that is what your posts do for me- your comprehensive skills are about zero it seems- no matter what the response, you either misread it, or bring up a new bit to go off about.

TC, truly interesting as to how you say one thing- then quote about a multiple of other things, and then point to your original suppositon and say see?

I will say this- I find quite a bit of what you say about coyotes, traps, lures, etc as 100% contrary to what I see, learn and have experienced. So be it, i'm sure you feel the same. We both have a leaning to certain schools of thoguht, obviously 2 quite different schools.

This would probably be more likely in fur tapping where guys tend to use the same set/lure applications and catch the easy ones and move on.

doesn't appear to be so- we got the dumb ones- can catch 30% of them again same lures same sets- fact, not guess at least on the known ones I've released

TRay- I continue to discuss this with you because I do want to increase my knowledge.

note we have gone in this discussion from every 2-3 years, to 5-6 years. That makes a difference, perhaps, if one wishes to theorize the why?

I know, that from minimum of 12 years using Catchottier at 100% of my sets, that I noticed no large scale or rather no noticible scale in refusals. But that was, as stated, for 5-6 weeks, with sporadic spring summer use.

And we also can conclude that for another canine, fox, that burnout isn't too much a factor, when guys consistently take 1000+ fox on the same lure for decades, in an area wherem any take 100+. Yes, I know coyotes are not fox, but canine noses are similar, its the innate things that are different.

So if in some area where the same lure is used for extended periods of years, coyotes on a large scale (yes, I know not 100%)start refusing those sets- why?

again, if you take say 90% of the coyotes by trap, another 5% of more by snares, calling, 44s- the pool of left coyotes is very small. I don't know the average life of your coyotes, but here in the study showed 2 years or less before death for the most part after collaring.

transcients would have zero knowledge or exposure

neither would pups

since all of the above make sense, then it makes me wonder if what is perceived as lure burnout is really that-

is it only on one ranch? or is it wide spread, occurring on all the ranches line wide?

are they the same locations, or moved to opposite edges of range?

[trappincoyotes39]

I try and give you reference to things nothing more or less.

AS stated if it works for you then that is great.

your use is to remove suspicion , mine is mainly on remakes to blend out concintraited smells.

I think for ME this has run its course . My thoughts on traps and yours please I gave up on them small traps 25 years ago.

Good day.

[TRay]

I don't remember saying 2-3 years, 5-6 years I say because that I what I think the age my coyotes will live to, even with a ton of pressure. If yours are only living to 2 than most of this discussion would be pointless as it would not apply to your area.
It surprises me that your country would have that much turnover in your coyote population. I trapped a little in SE MN 20 years ago and that area had some of the highest densitys I have ever seen.

[trappnman]

I'm very familar with all of what is considered SE Mn- what part did you trap?

don't know about the densities- I know I put on about 25000 miles a year most all back road country roads, actively looking for coyotes and see 2-3 in a good year, so they aren't that hgh. I see more riding my bike to Sturgis in a day, than I see here in multiple years.

I didn't say the average age was 2, I said the average time being collared before being killed was about that, so it was an assumption that turnover here was high.

but in a country where coyotes are being actively pursued i nthe air, by posion, by traps, guns and snares 365- it would be a very young population as well-

[TRay]

Houston area

[trappnman]

thats nice country, similar to mine except here more flat country on top of the coulees- down there, a bit more depth to the hills with the minor river systems- I have several good friends in the Houston/ Money Creek area

[jim]

MY best three days of the two weeks, maybe just happenstance. This was in Oct. too. When I was testing lures/baits twenty years ago in Sept. I couldn't get the coyotes to respond to a pee post. I am sure later in the year it would be different.
Jim

[coyotus]

After reading this post I thought I'll add my two cents. I think urine is of value.First it needs to be clean,collected off one meat fed adult male,not blended from several coyotes.I only use it on urine post sets with a gland lure.I squirt it on the scent object in a small bead or stream.I don't spray it all over the set.I have skinned tons of coyotes and fox I've caught and none of them had a nozzle that sprayed their urine out in a mist all over the area.Most years I'll drive my lines and squirt a bead of urine on objects I'm going to make urine/scent post sets with a couple of weeks before I set my lines.Matt Jones is right,the only way to remove the suspicion of a coyote is to put a bullet in his head.Bill

[trappnman]

hey coyotue- welcome to the forum. would you please post your region or state- helps knowing in discussions

Matts a great guy, and is exprienced- but I don't agree with that statment-because if one was NOT able to aleviate suspcion, no coyote would be caught unless in blind sets. The very fact that a coyote eventually work a set, says that suspicion factor has been knocked down. Now, I'm not saying this is because of the urine alone, because its also set construction and location

[coyotus]

My profile says S.D. I'm 50 miles west of Aberdeen.I canine trapped when I lived in N.E. Montana for 20 plus years.My experience is you get a urination response with urine use,marking.

[trappnman]

nice country- I like it

what about the times territory is not defended? marking doesn't occur then

[coyotus]

Steve I'm talking about trapping during "my" fur season the last week of October through November,roughly a 5 week time period.From my age 28 years to now age 64+ years old during this time period in Montana,North Dakota and now in South Dakota urine posts and gland lure have always been productive for me.Bill