How much value do you put on urine?

[trappincoyotes39]

been looking and thinking about urine and it's real value at a set. How many will not make a set without urine? is there really a thing as superior urine or is much of what we can buy satisfactory? I have only really purchased bad urine a handful of times in my life, most has been good stuff and urine all breaks down the same and hard very hard to keep the obvious from happing. I make 50 percent or less of my sets with urine as with its use it also has a high attraction to non targets as well.

So do some you put urine up there with the best bait or lure one can use as a must at most every set?

What is the real value of urine in your opinion at a high percentage of your sets? I am talking fresh sets not remakes as I find more value in it at a remake set.

I guess what is the consistent reaction urine produces for you over say a good bait or lure compounded to elicit certain things from a coyote.

[trappnman]

I put a lot of value on urine.

I agree on remakes. I've always used a lot of urine pretty heavy over the entire set/pattern area. At the same time, I've read multiple times, and have countless conversations, on how a remake set didn't work for them- stuff like always having to have a fresh set at a location, pulling traps and setting with the catch circle at the backing whereas I found just the opposite- remakes were just fine for me, and I had a continual pattern of having coyotes in the same sets, leaving fresh or untouched sets be.

so 15 or so years ago, I started applying urine heavy at some fresh sets, and over the years I've come to the point where all sets, fresh or remakes
get a heavy application of urine. I truly believe what some say, that urine is NOT a lure, its NOT a bait per se, but it is what the old timers thought- a suspicion remover.

I can see no reason not to use a lot of urine, besides trying to save a few pennies. And that's one think I've learned about coyotes- if you try to skimp on just about anything- pattern size, depth of hole, amount of bait or peat or urine- costs you coyotes.

not to say "trick" sets (and I don't mean that in a bad way) might be just the ticket for a truly shy coyote you need to kill (but isn't that why most of the western guys in coyote control, also utilize snares and calls?) but day in and day out- it still comes down to what appeals to the most, most of the time?

let me make

[trappincoyotes39]

But do you value urine as much as bait or lure? Does urine by itself or just urine and bait create the response from the majority of coyotes that without the use of urine or using so called inferior urine cause a decrease in your catch percentage?

I differ on fresh sets if any is used it is lightly used on fresh sets m as I do not feel it adds enough by itself or as a lure to go it alone. The reactions I get from urine isn't the same as good bait or lure. It was mentioned by you that post sets are a low percentage set, wondering why if urine has that must get attraction, as a good bait or lure does and where dealing with 50-60 percent young coyotes what is the true value?

I think some over value urine as an attractor is what I am getting at. I have made many fresh sets without urine because of added attractions to non targets, and catch coyotes that my need and use for urine is to mask or spread out odors from with in the trap circle. More often than not. Some people would not think of making a coyote set without urine, I guess I can take it or leave it when it comes to fresh sets.

[Deleted]

The Use of urine has not been a priority to me or let's say, an addition or subtraction that I can objectively and quantitatively say anything worth while about! So let me inject what Russ Carmen has to say using his philosopy-.


I'll have to "cherry-pick"quots but it's the best I can do in order to provide another philosophical approach to the subject.-

"that is a perfectly natural addition to virtually any set. It can trigger a number of reactions in an animal. It can make him aggressive. It can make him angry, and it can make curious. All are very positive reactions for the trapper, as such reactions will replace the natural fear and timidness in the aniamal and make his reaction to your set, lure or bait far more aggressive!"

"There is absolutely no need of flooding a set with urine. Urine does not work as a cover up that will hide forgeign odors at the set. That is one of the great myths of urine usage."

"but I do not think pure urine will ever take the place of lure as a main attractor."

"It is also a fact that in some areas, even pure urine will attract too many rabbits to your sets."

"Urine is suppose to give the visiting aniamal a false sense of security. Once urine is detected,it becomes of secondary interest to your lure and/or bait."

[trappincoyotes39]

I agree with the last sentence and basically my thoughts on the issue of urine and the gurus who think urine is what makes a set and that the collection is some magical process that only a handful know how to do right............

I have bought urine from many suppliers through the years and most of it has done what is expected from its self limiting potential at a set.

I do not agree with Russ on the fact at remakes and heavier urine use age it doesn't effect all the odor concentration, if used over the entire area to a POINT. if the trap gets too rusty then yes it will never cover up that type of smell but a slightly rusted trap I have seen where it can have a positive effect for a limited period of time, then I am better off adding a new set to the area or replacing the trap. Until that point setting on the edge of the circle and using a good dose of urine over and around the moved trap I have found value to this practice.

[trappnman]

for the most part, I agree with what Russ states- and to answer TC's question- no, I don't feel urine in and of itself is much of an attractant. I think coyotes piss here there and just about everywhere- and setting up sets on urine points, pointed out by dogs or observed- is still a hit and miss operation.

I concur with TC concerning odor coverups- I discovered on my own, and later read the same in Hoofbeats, that using copious amounts of urine at a set, all but eliminated the digging you get with rusty traps- I know that to be true.

But I don't use a lot of urine to cover scents- I just believe that urine is one of the final pieces of the puzzle to a set, and I'm not talking a few drops on the backing or a weed stem, but a fairly comprehensive misting of a 4-6 foot area.

I'm going to tell a secret- I DO believe there is a Silver bullet in coyote trapping, as Wiley E always tenfed to call it- and that is this- as stated understand the inherent natures, understand why the do what they do, and when and where they do it- and that by finding that solution- you ae going to maximize your catch.

What true makes me go-

is reading/watching things I know to be true deemed false, and things I know to be untrue deemed truth- and said with all the confidence in the world- and I can only wonder- what world do the coyotes they trap live in, if trapping them has lead to such conclusions?

[Deleted]

I don't think I'm hyjacking the thread because in context with TC's question there is some merit in addressing urine quality. As most that know me I try to test every type of scent before I use it on the lines, well, urine is no different.

I think it was 3 years ago I had a little of Jameson's and O'Gorman's coyote urine left but was going to order more. Now let me say, subjectively I was having no problems with either but since I'm the curious-type I thought I'd order a pint from two other businesses, see what I recieved AND test all 5.

Immediately I revcieved a pint (quick service) and I've got to tell you it was weak in the nose AND extremely pale, similar in color to Millers Lite and maybe a little ighter yet. I called the business and complained but was told "we get our urine from the same dealer as everybody in the mid-west that sells supplies(he named several other big-named trapping suppliers) and I have no problem using the urine on my canine line." he told me. So, there was no replacing the pint.

In a short time I recieved the other pint both from a lure manufacturer and it looked and smelled just like the trapping supplier..

I purposely found a piece of plywood that that I wanted to use as the test "holder" so to speak. On each of the four corners I poured about a 1/2 TB so that the urine ran over the curt edge and the rest I just let it run and what soaked in, soaked in. The Jameson's and O'Gorman's both stained the plywood whereas the others just looked like a wet spot is all AND there was a huge difference in odor, being the first 2 were intense comparitively speaking. The whole basis of my urine test was to see if my nose tell a difference with the board set out in the open so that it would have both sun and shade on it each day.

In 3 days the very first pint I recieved and called the guy about, had just about lost all odor and in 5 days I had to really get close to be able to smell anything from the 2 pints. The other 2 were really very strong, almost as they were when I first pored them out for the test. Shortly after the 5th day we had a good rain come through but I didn't try smelling until the plywood dried. The 2 pints were completely gone to my nose- absolutely could not tell there was urine on the 2 corners with even the slight stain was gone. No sowith the other 2, stain still visable and a good strong urine odor.

Since the 2 sample pints were gone I started doung the sniff test every few days for little over another week and the first 2 were still good and we had another overnight raincome through on about after 2 weeks and a few days if I'm remebering correctly. Once the plywood dried after this rain I COULD STILL smell both urines though they were no longer strong, still there was no wondering that they were there. After that rain and drying time I gave up on the test figuring I'd proved to myself that if I wanted a lasting urine I knew who I should be buying from and who I shouldn't.  Those 2 pints I just poured out.

Interestingly, Carmen addresses both types of urine either in that pamphlet or in his coyote book but I'm not digging them out to write quotes. The jist of what he said is like very powerful lures, a very strong, concentrated urine can be over used. Folks can make their own interpetation of what he was saying with that. The converse of having a strong urine is having a very weak urine or a contaminated urine and he says it's far better to either use no urine at all if indoubt OR use only a gland lure at the set in place of urine.

I almost forgot to mention that before I tested those 4 urines against each other, the previous year I'd bought a qt of coyote urine from another very well known lure manufacturer and it was very similar to those 2 pints but rather then testit, I just poured it out .   In addition, of the 5 urines I've discussed, 4 were from not only lure manufacturers but they are all  noted canine trappers, only one was from a supplier.

[trappnman]

how much was Carmen talking fox, vs coyotes?


that comment about too strong, seems more like a fox trapper talking, rather than a coyote man

[Deleted]

The "too strong" comment came from that same pamphlet above and didn't differentiate between canines. The comment about the gland lure was from his coyote book.

[trappnman]

I'd have to say I disagree with him on that- I'll grant an exception for a particular coyote you might want to catch in ADC work or some such- but the research and my observations are different. read a good comment on another forum, when a guy stated quantities of lures don't cause rolling, ingredients do. And I'd agree, my thoughts lie in that same vein.

One thing I do believe, is that canines, can be selective about scents in both what the focus on, and the intensity of the scent. I have no research to back this up, just 50 years of following hounds, and my coyote trapping. I'll continue to believe to my dying day, that if a coyote can come daily to a dead pig pile, and fight over, roll on, in general have their way with the pile- that a 1/4 to 1/2 oz of lure, is going to spook and shy them away- whereas 5 drops of the same will not.

for discussion- are gland lures really gland lures insofar they would do what one would, I suspect, expect from a gland lure, and that is to make the set smell like a coyote?

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2014 10:56:57 GMT -6 trappnman said:

One thing I do believe, is that canines, can be selective about scents in both what the focus on, and the intensity of the scent. I have no research to back this up, just 50 years of following hounds, and my coyote trapping. I'll continue to believe to my dying day, that if a coyote can come daily to a dead pig pile, and fight over, roll on, in general have their way with the pile- that a 1/4 to 1/2 oz of lure, is going to spook and shy them away- whereas 5 drops of the same will not.

for discussion- are gland lures really gland lures insofar they would do what one would, I suspect, expect from a gland lure, and that is to make the set smell like a coyote?

Two points-

1.  Pertaining to your paragraph, don't forget that one study that spoke in terms of comparing 3 dead cows vs 30 dead cows.

2.  for discussion-  I'd certainly have to agree that an animal's gland has to smell like the animal to the very highest degree.  So, Carman's advice about using gland lure in place of poor urine would in my opipnin be very commonsensical.

[trappincoyotes39]

It has been known by ADC trappers that a dog urinating at a set has increased value as well, yet what is the true value of such versus a good bait or lure? Most people do not feed their trapline dogs a strict red meat diet in fact would be very hard on them, so when discussing lighter urine versus darker that is really telling you what they ate versus so called collection quality. Also how many are single collecting from one source per bottle? so your getting a run of the mill from a batch of penned fox,coyotes all mixed together.

No different really than the majority of coyote gland lure your getting old glands,young glands, male glands and female glands and trying to keep suspended the real value of those in a lure? Good luck. Again the source would tell them that yes another coyote has been there but outside of that? Hard to get clues with mixed batched urine or gland lure. I would want a gland lure made of glands and urine and not fillers that would break down and cause the lure to take on another note all together different due to the filler breaking down differently than glands.


One well,known trapper said he never uses gland lure as it scare off more coyotes than it attracts .

Again this talk of boss dog urine I find to be far fetched as well as again you would be back to single source collecting and far more time and cost would be involved and your still going to loose the key ingredients that some will tell you is in there.........

bacteria formation is the major issue in collecting pee and if one looks at the cost and expense the deer guys do at their facilities we would not be buying predator pee for 35.00 a gallon . The deer guys can justify the cost and time do the the volume a they sell in a year a pile more than trappers use and at a much higher cost. So we are back to what real value does urine play versus a good lure or bait at a trap set,aside from a masking agent at best.

3 dead cows versus 30 is different as your getting mass volume of smells, sights and sounds when you have large holdings of livestock dead or alive both go hand in hand. Different than comparing the first whiff of a gallon of pee from one source or the other.

In some areas having a dead pile of 3-6 whole carcasses in the right places can be very good indeed as it beats the heck out of nothing and the coyotes sure know that to. In the dead of winter one can create that milling spot with a well maintained carcass location. Apples and organs when talking the value of one makers urine over another at a set IMO.

[Deleted]

I don't think we've been talking about using urine as a lure, I haven't. Supplement yes, lure no and isn't the fact that whether you use urine OR gland, the reason for using it is to tell the visiting coyote that another coyote has been there. Remember, Carman said if you can't get "good" urine, use gland lure instead. So his belief if I understand it correctly is that he expects both to provide the visiting coyote the thought that another coyote has been there and as the guy with the dog, add value to the set? Isn't that the purpose of using urine at a set? If they react in a similer manner if a dog pisses at spot, why wouldn't it be senseable to assume they'd be even more assured (a feeling of well-being) if they smell coyote piss or coyote gland?

[trappnman]

that I agree with-

urine as a suspicion remover- yes

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2014 17:11:55 GMT -6 trappnman said:

that I agree with-

urine as a suspicion remover- yes

You know, I would've saved myself a bunch of thinking and tippy-tapping on this IPad if I'd just wrote what you did!!!!!!!LOL

[trappincoyotes39]

So then does it really matter what kind of urine used? if a coyote thinks a dog piss is the same as a coyotes or a fox for,that matter? Are the basic clues gained is another canine has been there? Does that over take the NEED to react to a good bait or lure? The digging,scratching that both can do for you? What holding ability does urine really have against a good bait or lure? The a step further does a set like a dirt hole gain any benefit from urine or not? if they are committed to finding and getting the source of the odor of a good bait lure combination what effect does urine have overall with the end result of a caught coyote?

There are some that don't use a drop of lure per say they are using a bait which in itself is a lure due to the compounding of many odors and ingredients and not just a straight meat type,offering with every set getting a shot of urine, which these people feel no set is complete without urine down the hole etc. For that matter does every set then need a gland lure added without a good urine?

Does feeling assured go out the window once they hit that scent cone of good bait and lure?

[Deleted]

Everything, questions included, you've said TC really has more to do with the trapper's feelings/philosophies and are only assumptions of what we hope and assume the coyote thinks.  Just as I told about my testing of the different urines.  It was MY feelings, not a coyote's because I couldn't ask him so it was all about human feeling, subjectiveness for sure toward something that smelled strong and something that had little to no odor.  Strictly a subjective assumption but it was my assumption, nobody has to agree or even disagree.  So I made the decision that I wanted to use the strong ones rather then the weak, not a coyote.  

Can it be objectively proven that urine is a suspison remover? If it were, nobody would question the use of it and who wouldn't want to remove suspicion from a coyote you're trying to trap?? But as you pointed out, there are trappers whose experiences and observations tell them that it isn't needed. Why would that be? This really goes back to what Steve wrote in a previous reply of what perturbs him within the traoping fraternity. The profusion of "subjective" facts that differ 180 degrees.

Is urine or a gland lure a suspicion remover or not? You know Carman says so, so is that a fact or theory? It's his theroy, his belief, and maybe a fact to him so who can prove him wrong? ,If a person believes it is a fact, that person will use it as such and feel confident with that thought in mind regardless if others believe it to be so or a fact. You figure it is a positive to spray over a slightly rusted trap, so does O'Gornman. Why?  For what reason do you believe that to be so?   What is the urine doing to the coyote that it no longer is concerned/bothered/aware of the rust, Is it a fact?   You' and O'Gorman have agreed that it does something positive over a slightly rusted trap but not a more rusted trap. WHY?   What was the urine doing with the less amount of rust it couldn't do with more? Unless a person can objectively prove with quantifiable data/evidence that to be fact, it isn't, it's only a theroy, a subjective assumption based on observations which to the observer can be and is construed as fact TO THAT PERSON and that is the only person that really counts! If others agree in-principle then it may be fact to them and that is a personal perogative of every indiuvidual. 

"Does feeling assured(less suspicion) go out the window once they hit the scent cone of good bait and lure.?" If urine is thought to be a suspicion remover, I'd again think the less suspicion it feels the more respective the coyote would be to appraoch the scents. So again and I know I'm being repetitive but I think it's a good example, using urine over a slightly rusted trap, what is it doing to the coyote when it hits the scent cone? What is the urine not doing over a more heavily rusted trap that it supposedly did over the slightly rusted trap? I guess I'd have to "feel" from that kind of observation, the urine covered-up the scent of rust or removed suspicion / gave assurance from the scent of rust allowing the coyote to approach the slightly rusted trap.  What do you think the urine did?

So, back to your question, if it works in your "rusted trap scenerio", why wouldn't the addition/use of urine at a set without a rusted trap not be advantageous as giving assurance/suspicion remover???

[Deleted]

Oct 12, 2014 20:06:45 GMT -6 @never said:

Oct 11, 2014 20:46:56 GMT -6 trappnman said:

.

What true makes me go-

is reading/watching things I know to be true deemed false, and things I know to be untrue deemed truth- and said with all the confidence in the world- and I can only wonder- what world do the coyotes they trap live in, if trapping them has lead to such conclusions?

[
This quote of Steve's really answers all questions about this thread's topic and most other thought to be fundementals of trapping. Being that there are only opinions by the persons themselves as fact, based on their experiences, observations, or just because they are followers of someone else's theroy or philosophy ! If a person believes urine is a suspicion remover and another believes it doesn't do anything but wastes money, cool beans. Whose money is being spent? Whose trapping in whose shoes? Whose time is being wasted??? Whose success is whose concern? Now there are a ton of folks out there writing books and making videos and in every one I've seen they, will tell you "this is how I do it". Not a single one I've seen have stated that therfe is no other way. Some have come pretty close to that but not quite.

So if your opinion is to use a 1/2 pint of urine at YOUR set, go for it. If in YOUR opinion you don't feel the need to use any at YOUR set, go for it and if either approach is wrong according to someone else's opinion, let them prove it objectively and quantitatively!!!

[trappincoyotes39]

I do not feel urine does much with a activly rusting trap Becuase of the odor of said rust,scaling rust to me seems to be a far bigger digging issue than ones that get scratched up and lose the wax coating and in a few days to week depending on climates and soils start getting that wet scaly type rust. At that point I have seen coyotes pick out those types of traps. Out west we generally had lower humidity for sure, but gray gumbo with any moisture to it and bare steel inside of 5 days or so would get that scaly rust going urine did little to keep them from pin pointing a trap in that condition. Lighter rust urine seemed to help them not pin point the trap. Once they started to rust over the entire exsposed areas time for a new set or trap.

here in Missouri you have higher humidity but the soils aren't as strong so it works out to about the same time frame on rusting of traps.

I guess I do not feel urine is something that NEEDS to be at every set in order to make it a good one. The value of it is less than good bait and lure IMO on a fresh set and it is buying one sometime when it comes to rust but that window again depending on conditions is limited as well.

[Deleted]

Now that's a good answer TC AND a good explaination of your opinion!