How much value do you put on urine?

[RdFx]

Interesting ideas Steve, almost like some men losing interest in their partners and looking at the passing parade of females, but still the inner interest in the subjects passing by. I believe as you the same with yotes. Applying the inner interest of the animal in food, sex and just knowing who is around aka glands. One has to apply his or her experience overall and in the areas he or she is working in and apply the knowledge.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I used less m-44's than other guys, the summer time is not the best time to use such a tool far more hit and miss than fall/spring. I will tell you a trap is far more versatile tool, but m-44's at the right time can smack a pile of coyotes, other times I would have some of them in a trap where I didn't with the m-44.

The airplane was a specialized tool and in some areas not the best choice due to cover and other factors, some areas that was pretty much the main tool, when one has 10-12 guard dogs running around.

Again I make the point that year round use of things can become an issue nothing new really.

I had ranches where traps where in the ground year round year after year, no offense but not 2 summers with a few collared coyotes. these areas have been worked for years by me and the guy before me etc.

Random lures and baits, where I kept track of what lure and bait was used at what set, and what time of year. I also like to have various smells coming from many trap sets others in different seasons more singular smell like gland lure on a turd and nothing more. Each situation and time of year dictaits such.

Not all lures and baits have the same response form all coyotes that varies by attractant, age, sex etc.

The thing being this, how does all else stay equal? Seasonal changes Tman and different use of space along with that. I think you see this as a fall thing, where I look at it as a year long thing and lure avoidance, burn out can and does happen. One thing for sure use the same tool,over and over again for a period of time and avoidence will be seen. A buried trap by itself has not odor .................

You asked what makes coyotes avoid things? Their nature for one, Sights,sounds and smells and the ability over a "LONGER" period time things like bait and lure doesn't have the same appeal. The easiest coyotes to kill are the aggressive ones not matter what tool your using.

[trappnman]

sorry, I don't agree.

and there are two points here-

1) are there some lures that work better at certain times of the year?

yes, I believe there are

but the key word is "some".....not all. And part, perhaps the main part, is that milder lures work better in warmer/wetter climes than cold and dry. and natural or commercial bait as another example, would work better in some instances than others

I also believe that a GOOD lure, a go to lure, one that has passed the test of time- has the same effectiveness hot or cold. and I don't beleive a loud lure spooks or causes hesitation any more in the summer, than in fall or winter.

2) if I am understanding you right, you keep mentioning the places that have traps at the same locations year after year- and you are stating that coyotes get burnt out by using the same lure for those years and years- and that changing lures start things rolling again. Fair enough summation?

I don't believe it for a minute-

I think there are a lot of probable scenarios- but lure burnout not being one

sure, if one coyote was wandering around for for years, I'll concede not much left in that lure to excite him anymore. but why is that coyote wandering around? Surely that coyote would have either encountered his first trap, or 2nd trap, or 3rd or 4th trap- and been caught? or encountered coyotes in those traps- and then the remake would be nothing special and some bait and urine should take him next time through.

and if you do get one, that for whatever reason becomes wary of sets lured with that lure- hes lure shy, not burnt out

and again- even in a 24/7/365 operation- the majority of coyotes would be a) YOY or b) transcients- the % of those surviving for multiple seasons, or even a season, would be like hens teeth.

unless you are proposing lure burnout, is a taught trait?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman not that loud so called spooks coyotes in the summer it just doesn't get the reaction at this time of year. Summer time coyptres have one thing on their minds and your dealing with mostly adults, we can use that information to our advantage. Seasonals shifts be it calling, trapping or snaring can make a big difference in results. That Inhave no doubt in.

Tman you can believe it or not, but look up some scent station studies and the mere fact that guys before my time had seen coyote numbers increase as 1080 went along a few years episode to the ban.

Tman mostly YOY what? In a heavy pressured environment they are the first to die and are chased by callers, trappers, snowmobiles, shot from the roads etc. A pile of them killed before fall even comes into play on sheep men as you take the den.

They have areas to prosper all regions have that, but to think during the spring and summer your having many of those coyotes breeding in high pressured areas? The litter counts are a good way to figure out to a degree age of a female also looking at tooth wear, not talking 6-7 year old coyotes but plenty that fit the 2-3 year age group yes.

The very best denning locations will be made up of aggressive coyotes on the norm.
When you have mange the ones that die first are a lot of those new born pups so by fall your pup crop is knocked done hence the lower numbers, same with parvo the adults can live with either much better than young coyotes.

Lure shy to that lure or all what is your contention?

[trappnman]

as I said, we will have to diagree

90% of what you posted above, has nothing to do with the conversation

for example- scent station studies and the mere fact that guys before my time had seen coyote numbers increase as 1080 went along a few years episode to the ban.


I don't even know what that means.

[TRay]

Man I'm lost, don't know where to even start with this topic as it had jumped around so much. LOL

I have used less and less urine over the years to the point I have not used on a trap in several years, and I have seen no drop off in catch rates. In fact catch rates have probally risen as I have nearly eliminated the problems with deer,cattle and rabbits plugging or snapping traps. I use very little gland lure for the same reason outside of late spring into summer when I am looking for a certain response from the adults.

I do think urine has value and use a lot of it on M-44s during winter and spring seasons as it will cause the coyote to (stall out) and spend time marking in that area, increasing potential for them to make a bad decision.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tray easy to get lost on here at times for sure LOL. Things start one way and move in a different direction LOL. I will gladly take seem of that lost blame LOL.

I agree with the less urine useage because of things you mention and I will add in porcupines as well.

Long and short for me is from page 2

"setting many fresh sets with no urine I have not seen where I am at a disadvantage of catching those coyotes in short order. "

I started this topic frankly because of various post on another site on how some special branded urine is the so called God send to successful coyote trapping. I was out to see if others had such an opinion on urine and the importance they put in such and if in fact some branded urine was the God send.

[rionueces]

A long time ago I used straight urine that was collected by a trapper in my home town. He gathered urine from coyotes that he kept in cages, and that stuff was really strong. Probably had some turds mixed in with it as well. We would spray that stuff into a bush or backing behind a set with no other lure or bait, and it worked very well. I would also set two traps at each location to increase my odds of a catch. I'm not sure if that helped, but that was before I became a self proclaimed "expert" after reading all of the trapping books that advised differently.

[trappincoyotes39]

A funny thing though is this, for years many books wanted us to spray down everything and anything in urine: traps, gloves, kneeling pad, trowel, sifter,dirt and maybe a swig or two for our bad breath

Also another thing how many have smelled fresh bladder urine from a fox and coyote and the first thoughts are dark and rank for the most part?

A good read on urine collection and bacteria growth was written about by Sam Collera a large white tailed deer urine collector in Iowa.

Which by the way trapping urine is a drop in the bucket compaired to all those that buy deer urine annually.

[trappnman]

nothing to be confused about- do it both ways for multiple years, and you will have your answer. I did, and have.


so its ok to use urine at M44s to remove suscpicon- but not so at traps?

if deer and other animals are suhch a concern, then you are wise to use or not use whatever works.

you started this for one simple reason- yet, that reason hasn't been mentioned since your opening post, and i'm guessing if I reread that, it wouldn't be mentioned there either. Urine for the most part is just urine.

the old timers lived and breathed coyotes- this new don't use but a drop of urine thing- is a internet thing- if you are going to hang your hat on tat- then don't forget to never set on a backing a coyote can't see over, make sure you bring that kneeling cloth along, and for heavens sakes don't use more than a drop of lure- 2 if you are feeling giddy but for Gods sake not more than that!

[trappnman]

do not feel urine does much with a activly rusting trap Becuase of the odor of said rust,scaling rust to me seems to be a far bigger digging issue than ones that get scratched

either rusting causes concern, or it does not.

scaling rust? you mean so bad that chunks are falling of trap? don't know, never set a trap like that.

but I have set traps that have caught something, that start to rust underground- and there is not one doubt in my mind, that a trap with FRESH rust on it, is avoided at the set. I found that if one used speed dip, that any moisture started the refuslas- and that yes, spraying the set down with urine, takes care of the problem. It was very gratifying, to, after all the internet gurus telling me that I was not only wrong but damn wrong, to see O'G mention that WHEN TRAPS WERE RUSTING IN THE GROUND, HE OFTEN USED A GAL OF URINE TO TREAT 50-60 SETS IN A DAY BY SPRAYING THEM WITH URINE

I'll leave it to you to figure out why.

[TRay]

so its ok to use urine at M44s to remove suscpicon- but not so at traps?

When I use urine I'm not using it to remove suspicion, while that may happen it's not the reaction I'm looking for. When using M-44s the non targets become a non factor.

While coyote urine way act as a suspicion remover I have seen countless times where coyotes have stopped and pissed in the same spot where I stopped to take a piss earlier. I would think there would be a big difference in smell between myself and coyotes urine but I can't say they have ever acted skittish in these areas.

For me when coyote trapping (with traps) and I look at the 3 main smell attractors being bait, lure, urine and determine their value to me. Bait is by far the most probally 95% of sets, lure probally 20% of sets, and urine at less than 2%.

[trappnman]

why then Tray do you use it at all on M44s? granted I've never used them, but the concept I understand is that you want a odor that will cause the coyote to come into the set, and want to put that scent into his mouth. in othre words- grabbing the cototn, or wick or whatever it is by his mouth, and pulling it hard enough to fire the device.

So urine wouldn't be any factor in that urge, would it? Nothing in urine responses to trigger the wanted reaction of biting pulling the lure holder.

I've heard from one that took lessons from him, that Thorpe use cow urine as his canine urine. And I have no doubt that would work- urine is a universal attractant for animals- yours, mine, the next coyote or the next whatever. It bothers me not to use fox urine, or a mix of both and I see no slap me in the head difference than using pure coyote urine.

I don't know if coyote urine use is a suspicion remover per se, although the term is suggestive as to what it does. I think urine use, drops defenses. I think its a mild coverup, and I think it brings them into the set with less than 100% full alert mode.

So if I understand you right- you use bait only at 95% of your sets?

lure at only 20 and urine practically not at all?

Are you living in a high population coyote area, where food is the overridng concern? I ask that, because if I would have to choose to go with 1 thing- I'd hands down pick lure over any bait or urine. But I truly feel that to take the msot coyotes, most of the time, qucik- that a combination of all three is the way to go.

[TRay]

I don't use urine on the M-44s, rather I use it at the location. I am trying to create a sent post / stall out area for the coyotes, usally on a rock or bone along a trail or in a saddle. I have several locations where years ago I placed a large rock alongside a trail and would soak with urine to create a draw station, when I go back to them areas now in the fall the only green grass in the pastere will be around them rocks, as the coyotes keep the spot watered and fertilized. Some spots they have actually killed the grass around the rocks.

I won't argue that urine doesn't have value as I know it is important. Just in the area I currently work it causes me more problems with non targets.

To me most baits have so many different ingredients in them that they are nearly the same as lure. I rotate between several different baits every year to prevent any habituation problems. I have kept fairly good records over the years as I test several new baits and M-44 lures every year and saw very little difference in catch percentage in lures vs baits. I do use 4-5 different lures on M-44s but I never use those lures in trap sets to prevent any "burnout" in those lures.
The one thing mentioned earlier that I do agree with in regard to urine is there should be no burnout with it.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman big difference to me in small spotting rust and wet slimy rust, work different soild in different times of the year and you will see what I and others talk about. Fall/winter humidity levels far lower than spring and summer for sure, alkaline soils very hard on exsposed steel, a gallon of pee on 60 sets is 2 oz per set to cover up rust sounds logical to me and what I have done in the past as well.

2 drops of pee? Where does that notion come from? Fresh sets if and when I use it it is from a squirt bottle application for the most part mixed with gland lure.

Tray I agree no burnout with URINE.

Scott H showed and told me that trick with setting up urinating spots in those good saddle areas to make a stall out and giving them the place if one already doesn"t exsist.

[trappnman]

no, I have found no difference in QUANTITY of fresh rust- the key is FRESH, RUSTING. but I do find it refreshing to see 1) you now profess rust spooks coyotes (a first I believe) and that urine can cover that up (another first I believe)

and fyi- fall trapping here is very humid- one needs to wear wet boots more days than not becasue of the heavy dew- and low temps makes that mositure stick around.

TC- and they don't get burnt out with a gland lure mixed with that urine?

I guess I just don't understand where lure brunout comes from- why are all those coyoteso ut there wandering around with multiple exposure to your lures, without putitng steel on him?

the burnout theory stands no test of logic BEYOND AN OCCASIONAL ANIMAL YOU MADE LURE SHY

[trappincoyotes39]

T man it's obvious you never trapped in harsh soils before there is a difference between rust I am talking about the kind you swipe your finger across the trap Jaws and your finger is orange and wet even my nose can detect the odor of such in heavy gumbo it rarely ever gets a chance to dry out. I have found after a catch your best off just to replace it with a fresh set versus fighting in working with such most of the time .

Again remakes different than fresh sets and urine useage for me.

I live in Missouri so I know what real humidity is like I can tell the difference in the fall when I can turn off my dehumidifier and not have to empty it every 24 hours like in the summer so yes humidity levels are lower in fall winter versus summer or even late summer.



Lower is relative but lower is still lower in one can Feel The difference. Heavy dew in the fall gone much quicker than summer, again mowing grass can tell a guy that as well. How quick one can get on it summer takes longer versus the fall time.

As far as this being a first for me stating with some rust urine has a benefit well that's simply not the case

Again Curiosity Lures I think you would agree are far different make up then urine or Gland llure or a mix of both being natural coyote smells. Just because something might say gland base does not make it a true Gland lure in my mind if mixed with other non coyote make up.

Again if you think the burn out doesn't exists with baits and lures so be it, not just me telling you it can and dose happen working the same areas .............

Tman trap your farms year round for 3 years with the same multiple compounded baits and lures and then get back to us. It doesn't have to be different brands if one offers enough selections to change up either. But I always like a couple brands in my arsenal.


I will give you that 6-8 weeks in the fall lure and bait burn out not much of an issue at all and will not effect most fur trappers .

[trappnman]

you still avoid the main question- WHY are there all those coyotes wandering around with enough exposure to be burnt out on a particular lure?

I'll disagree 100% with your summation of dew and water evaporating much quicker in the fall than summer- thats just false and to say such makes me think your livng in MO for a year has taught you nothing. I'm in the fields most everyday from april to dec- and I can tell you flat out, here at least in Mn, that summation is as dead wrong as anything I've read.

gumbo? you ever heard of Red Wing pottery? know what that was made from? know where it came from?

Heavy dew in the fall gone much quicker than summer, again mowing grass can tell a guy that as well. How quick one can get on it summer takes longer versus the fall time.


tell the truth- your kids mow your grass?

Have you never baled hay in any state where high humidity is the norm most of the year? or even bene around it? if so- then you should know about drying timesi n fall, vs summer. Do you even drive on dirt roads all year? becasue, again, the drying time in summer is nothing compared to fall- and its NOT that it dries quicker in the fall.



btw- kansas city has an average year round relative humidity rate of 81%- Minneapolis 79% so call it a wash and move on.

yes, I agree curiosity lures are different than gland lures? And?

Again- WHY are you having so many coyotes out there, burnt out on your lure? or do you contend its a learned trait?

[TRay]

Not 100% sure what leads to lure burnout but I have seen good lures lose effectiveness. I quite using those lures for several years then things went back to normal. I have several theorys why but nothing conclusive. In talking to several other very good coyote trappers who have seen the same thing.
I do have equipment in the ground in most areas 10-12 months out of the year, probally most fur trappers would never see burnout problems as they don't set one location for long periods of time.

I know several good fur trappers in the west who won't even set the same locations from year to year as they have seen significant location avoidance when a spot is trapped year after year. I think Ogorman even talks about it in his articles.

[trappnman]

I'd be interested in your theorys even if you aren;t 100% sure

for discussion, not to bust youre balls-

you are only using lure at 20% of your sets, and I'm going to assume you are getting a high % of coyotes, and those that you don't you take other ways, I just don't see how lure burn out can occur.

Again, an individual exposed to it, the same odor day after day with no reward- yes, seems not only possible but likely.

but a population? Again, 60-70% of the population is YOY- so dealing with that is the same if trapping for 1 day or 365 days. first time at a set would be 1st exposure.

and if you are dealing with traps all year, than you are having a very good portion of those coyotes that you would catch after a period of time, as transcients and they too, would have their first exposure at the 1st set they encountered.

now location shy- you bet