How much value do you put on urine?

[trappnman]

TC- the use of urine for me, has nothing at all to do with scent marking

nor am I of the belief that coyotes use specific areas for urinating- I'm of the belief thye pee whenever they have to pee, and do so quite often anywhere from a few drops to a bladder full. and that in stall out areas, that the whole place reeks of coyotes and pee.

A direct question- do you feel the opposite on the above?

I don't think only a select few can collect urine- but at the same time- there is good urine and bad urine- if a urine smells like a coyote catch circle-its good urine, if it smells like a sewer, it is not.

I personally, would not start out coyote trapping, without urine. I feel its that important.

the reason I started this thread that some think urine collection is above and beyond and only a select few do it right

unless I missed it, this is first time you brought up urine quality- why wasn't that your opening statment? its a whole 'nother discussion.....

the only way one can decide if urine use, lots or little, is for them- is to put in seasons doing one or the other, and after enough time, the answer should be clear..........

for me, that answer is use a lot of urine- not because I like shelling out the money for it, but because I can, visually and materially, see the difference in my results with same sets, same locations...using a lot of urine simply gives me more coyotes, in less time than not doing so.

[trappincoyotes39]

During certain times of the year yes, urine and scat are used as territorial marking in the spring and summer I have seen it in various areas along gravel roads and other places. Inhave watched coyotes scent mark at these times of year, my old coyote dog found these areas as well. yes during fur harvesting time no territory to hold so less scent marking and more random peeing.

yet I have been and seen the light on urination aspects of the spot, the stall out what ever you want to call it, Scott H shown me the techniques used to create those urination spots in such areas as he has planted rocks in those areas. They will confine to those as they are a natural,urination spot within the spot as you gave them exactly what they wanted to pee on, like the fire hydrant deal And he used many getters in these areas as well with great success. if my memory serves me right Scott H isn't a major user of urine either, blanketing sets with such........... Good baits, good lures and a good set. In fact we had a bait for getters a govt formula made a batch with well aged not rotten bobcat meat that turned out to be a far better DH bait due to the reactions at getters and knowing those are the ticket for a great DH bait. That entire batch went from a getter bait to a great trapping bait, the thought process was we needed fresher bobcat meat for a better getter response.

Why would one feel the need in this type of environment to fog down the majority of sets with pee? You have everything you need in these areas and they will spend the time with good attractors and good setting techniques to catch them with little worry of suspicion.......

Do you agree with that statement?

urine quality would play into the discussion would it not? The quality some seek out tells me they are big users of urine overall correct?..............

In fact a few use just urine and bait no lure what so ever and feel lures are a waste of money and time or so they claim.

[trappnman]

TC- I can say it no clearer than I believe urine is a suspicion remover, and I want them to encounter that before the set- if you disagree, so be it.

[trappincoyotes39]

Remember the study showing up to 20 times more likely to investigate on the edge versus inside the home range.................

Also another study showing certain lures instigated far better response and length of such response over urine and feces.

Add those two together and you get some of the very reasons why I feel urine is not major player for me, more important through all of my years, Have I found I am missing things with less urine use age and not more.

Each to his own but a good discussion none the less.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2014 16:31:31 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Why would one feel the need in this type of environment to fog down the majority of sets with pee? You have everything you need in these areas and they will spend the time with good attractors and good setting techniques to catch them with little worry of suspicion.......

urine quality would play into the discussion would it not? The quality some seek out tells me they are big users of urine overall correct?..............

Well here's what O'Gorman has to say with several quotes on this facet of the particular subject-

"On a usual day on 60 traps, I will need up to 1 gallon of urine."

"Always remeber to use pure, clean urine only, over a trap and set.  Additives should not be used on the set, but only , beyond the trap, never on it."

"Research has proven that louder odors call further.  So we know that aged collection urine is louder than fresh. We know that generally, more coyote sounds or odors turn a coyote on, whether calling or trapping.  Logically, aged collection urine should call further and entice more interest to a coyote as it smells as if 5-10 coyotes urinated on the scent station or were at the dirt hole.  It should cause serious, territory infringement instenicts and aged collection urine should be the ultimate suspicion remover."

"we prefer and attempt to make aged looking sets for adult coyotes.  It seems very logical that to have a natural, aged set, that we should use aged urine.  George Good, who was very fussy about what urine he used always wanted clear, dark, stout, aged clooectionurine and felt the stoutier, the better.  Then too, we should re-call that most good coyote trappers like good strong aged coyote gland lure.  Obviously this will have aged collection urine in it and is a top performer on coyotes."

"If I have a choice for coyote trapping, I will be using aged, clean collection urine."

[trappincoyotes39]

Never all this means what? he has his thoughts just as do others.

I have always added some anti freeze to any pee or you end up with slushy pee that doesn't come out as well

Coyote sounds when calling? all dependent on the time of year and sounds used, come sept and October a good distress sound is hard to beat your calling to a pile of Virginia ears and coyotes that have just lost the kids, many come to a good distress sound with gusto as obtaining meat goods at this time of year tougher for sure. All the prey has grown along with those coyote pups and not as easy to gain a meal at times.

His territory infringement holds merit at certain times of year but not all or for the main portion of the fur harvesting season.

Aging a set in the summer time can be done real quick in hot weather with a. Spray bottle with water in it ...........

I have the same book somewhere never and I believe he also states in years of higher prey base he uses less urine and likes coyote urine during predator control months ie: April/ August.

Again I use gland lure during these times and use urine at a set proper as well, not every set though at these times he made a gland lure called rouge wolf which was one I used a lot for coyotes, but the verb age of added enragers? Well a feel a selling tatic more than any real evidence.

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2014 18:10:12 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Never all this means what? he has his thoughts just as do others.

THAT is exactly my point TC and the answer to your question that started this thread!!!  Your question has been answered by several folks here AND Carman, O'Gorman, AND several others that you've injected into the discussion in order to show "difference of belief-difference of perceived value".  

Sooooo, the only thing I can see that has been brought out is everyone has a difference of oipnion.  I mean, that's all both Carman and O'Gorman have with your question, their published opinions.  No facts, nor data, just feelings and opinions and no where do either say to the greatest magnitude, "if you don't do it my way you won't catch as many as you should."  Or am I wrong, are you saying that your way is the right way?  

I don't THINK you are but than again, Steve has stated that his method works for him and he believes it to be a value-added part of HIS process.  Your method differs from Steve's, cool beans, does that mean you're right and Steve's not or vice-verse? Seriously, is there any answer to your question other than a personal opinion and isn't a person's personal opinion all that matters?  Maybe you really weren't asking for an answer but rather just an exchange of opinions, with right and wrong not entering into the equation?

I can answer your question that I FEEL urine is a value.  I could be asked why I think that and I'd have to honestly tell you because I THINK or I FEEL it does  based on MY perception of an increased catch rate or it just makes me FEEL good to use it and gives me confidence because I THINK or I FEEL it's a suspicion remover. What more can be said, end of discussion!

[Deleted]

Your question just reminded me of what's going on in the stock market.

A person has a stock that they THINK has no value left in it for them so they sell it. In order to sell a stock, there has to be someone who wants to buy it and of course the reason for buying it is that someone THINKS there is value in the stock. So the question is- Who is the fool?  The seller who precieves there's no value or the buyer who precieves there is value??

[trappincoyotes39]

The one who loses the most money on the transaction in the short term. That is what the stock market is all about buy lower and sell higher

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2014 19:08:47 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

The one who loses the most money on the transaction in the short term. That is what the stock market is all about buy lower and sell higher

LOL!  You missed or avoided the entire correlation between the urine question and the stock question TC!  Previeved value or precieved lack of value!

[trappincoyotes39]

never, humor man humor Jeeze

[CoonDuke]

Why I use red fox urine at dirtholes...

1). Adds a lot of calling power to the set. I can smell a fox scent post when walking through the woods. I'm sure a canine can smell it for quite some distance.

2). Urine never gets old or wore out on foxes. They encounter it every day and use it to communicate and will usually check out urine odors. I would suspect coyotes are similar.

I agree with O'Gorman and the old time wolfers at least when it comes to foxes. Rotted and aged glands mixed with an aged urine component gets the reaction I want.

Wanna know why I think fresh gland lures are pushed heavily today? Because they are easy. Luremakers can get it from the animal to the shelf in short order. No rotting down process.

Another thing luremakers are pushing are thick gland lures with no urine. More smoke and mirrors from some luremakers. They remove the urine component which IS ATTRACTIVE and add filler and thickener and advertise as 100 percent pure glands put up fresh.

IMO the old time western wolfers and the northeast fox men had it right when it came to gland lures. Strong aged glands and urine. Somewhere along the line this mentality got changed and in my opinion not for the better...

[trappincoyotes39]

Coon duke I have no doubt canines can smell pee that is a given the question becomes what is the true attraction to it? Does it garner the same response as a good bait or lure? The frequency they spend investigating pee versus a good lure and do pined bait has been studied to some degree and the time spent investigating urine has been shown in SOME testing to be less than that of good lure and bait. I will add this study was limits to certain lures two to be exact and they both had a longer time frame of investigation over urine and much more than scat, although scat at times is a great visual. One thing to get a coyote to a trap set, the other component is how long can you keep him there investing? the longer the better.

[CoonDuke]

In my observations of a lot of trail cam footage on red foxes showed that there is very little reaction to urine. A quick sniff and urination and the fox is on its way.

Lures made them spend a lot of time and work the set harder. BUT, the foxes would lose interest in lures each time they encountered them. Lure that got amazing reactions the first time the fox smell them were totally burned out after a coupe of weeks.

My observations were that foxes never became burned out on urine. They almost always checked it out if the post was made correctly.

I run almost all close double sets. One set gets lure and urine and the sister set gets lure. Most of the time the set with the urine makes the catch. It gets to the point that I start with 50 percent of my sets having urine to 100 percent later on....simply because my line is telling me that sets with urine are making the catches.

Urine is also the ultimate set refresher. I absolutely dread relure days after a rain, etc. With a smaller shower, a shot of pee seems to get the sets going again. And your not dealing with lure stick, spoons, etc. You can get the urine all over and not really contaminate equipment.

I don't think urine takes the place of lure or bait, but the calling benefits, ease of refreshing sets, and the way it seems to make my sets better is why I use it.

[braveheart]

If gland lure is made right it takes 2 yrs. to be ready for the shelf.Like most lures it has to have several freeze thaw to blend right.Only filler is glycerin to keep from freezing.
Marty

[turkeyfanatic]

Very interesting read......

Is everyone speaking in terms of Dirthole sets only. Steve do you use your urine strategies with your flat sets ?

Not that this pertains to anything however I do find it interesting and obvisouly there are way to many variables at play here, but I remember as a kid my dad and I would always use red fox urine on our boots as a cover scent when hunting archery, not sure if it worked but we did see more red fox.

Thanks for the wealth of information guys.

[trappincoyotes39]

Coon duke after revisitng this and your comments, another reason why working the same ranches for a period of years different lures by different lure makers where switched out on a rotational basis, to keep that burn out lower.

I use some urine but more urine and gland mix myself, I feel it adds so much more than just urine by it self at fresh sets.

[trappnman]

I think it comes down to simply 1 thing- do you believe urine is a lure, or a suspicion remover?

And while we have talked about it before, it bears repeating & thinking about

if a lure- then use it as a lure and apply it to the hole or backing

if a suspicion remover- then use it liberally all over the set

regarding lure burnout- during a season- yes

year to year- no

1) 60-70% of the population are YOY
2) a considerable % of the next years population that isn't YOY, are transients and fill ins.
3) of my collared coyotes- 6 I recaught- 2 same season, 4 next year- all with same lures, and same locations where previously thought

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman lure burn out happens when you have traps sets on the same places in the same areas for long periods of time year in and out.

Changing up lures and baits and set construction does add extra critters, also seasonal changes and using lures and baits with those changes can make a difference as well.

I can tell you stink isn't always the best choice at certain times of the year.

When a fresh killed summer lamb hits a certain stage they will not feed on it versus taking down a fresh one.

I know plenty of guys that change out lures and baits on a semi or annual basis and for good reason and the results are more to their liking. Inhave seen a difference it can make, no different than a great getter lure in the fall and winter becomes marginal at best in the heat of the summer.


Some lures not the same in weather below 50 degrees as they are when it is 80-100 degrees out. I know some lures that go from a thicker paste to water runny in the summer.

lots of factors involved like prey, weather, coyote densities and if your trapping them for 4-6 weeks in the fall versus having traps set on them year round or for a good portion of the year. I can only tell you from my experience and others that practice the same that changing out lures and baits does make a difference.

other signs that point to such occurrences is using an airplane too much in a given area on an annual basis, no one gets them all, the sound of the plane will have them heading for the nearest road culvert to hole up or in western SD holes and water gaps in banks, when this happens you need a good ground guy that can go in and get these coyotes as these are the important ones to get rid of for sure. I had some killing on a ranch no dice in the traps and snares due to locations I could set without having to worry about sheep, the coyote would hear the plane and head for some standing sunflowers good sized and powder dry conditions, he was always moving back in by first light, so one morning I told the plane to hold back for an extra period of time I worked on my 4 wheeler back and four along the sunflower boundry back and fourth, I am sure that coyote hunkered down in a low spot in some tall grass by a water seep, I never did see him, then the plane came over the horizon with good morning light I shut down the 4 wheeler and they got him up moving towards the flowers and shot him down in the last little draw before getting to the flowers.

When I say using too much we are not talking every week but a handful of times each year over a period of years.

lots of neat stories on hole divers and coyotes that would work around what where really good blended snares at times.

If we where just looking at a small window of time over a period of eyars would be one thing, but look at the avoidance to 1080 bait stations as the years went on?

So not so cut and dry really.

[trappnman]

While not trapping as much i nthe spring and summer a I do i nthe fall- at the same time, I collared coyotes for 2 spring/summers and periodically do ADC summer work.

So I do have some experience with summer lures and baits, if not concentrated periods, periods done over time.

and I'm fairly confident that you weren't running traps in any concentrated effort either- with M-44s, calling, planes and snares- why would you?

When I trap during this period, I use the same lures, the same methods and have the same success


like 99% of the stuff discussed here, the time period is oct-jan- fur season, and as such burnout is not something I've worried about, nor seen any il effects from finding a good lure (I used Stefs for 10 years or more, Martys going on 5) good each time I use it, year after year. And keep in mind our very different luring methods- I use a random combination of 2 lures, and 2 baits- that gives me what- doing the math a whole bunch of possible combinations- very few sets will have the same odor coming from them- but at the same time, the basic scent of the 2-3 given lures is always there.
While I'll grant there are rare exceptions of a true lure shy (100% odor based)coyotes, they are rare.

And I'll say that by asking this question- what makes a lure shy coyote? You might say yo usaid "lure burnout"- but lure shy and lure burnout are the same thing- that is, lure avoidance.

So what would burn out or make a coyote lure shy to the point the same sets will work, but not that lure- meaning add a new lure, and bang!

Over exposure? How would that occur? How many times does a coyote work a set before being caught?

My firm belief is that if a canine has a certain response to an odor, that behavior will be repeated. as long as all else is equal.

now- you have set lured with 1 lure, and you take 10 coyotes in it in 10 days, and there are 1 or 2 left-I can certainly see how they might avoid that set- but thats location shy, not lure burnout

now- if you would expose 1 coyote to the same lure, day after day for season after season- yes, I'll concede his interest would be less.