How much value do you put on urine?

[trappnman]

a sec from out the door but I want to comment on a couple of things.

1) does other urine, do the same things that coyote urine does at a set. I've heard of 1 well known trapping legend, that was said to use nothing but cow urine. Could be- but my thought is that one can obviously tell the difference in urines, even after time (fox,coyote,cat) so it goes without saying, that a coyote knows its coyote urine. What does that urine tell a coyote? certainly nothing about any individual coyote- but yet, isn't scent marking done by overlays of various coyotes? that is one peeing where another did (let me take it back, that's not scent marking its just peeing)so my point more is if you got a lot of coyotes, you got a lot of various ones pissing in same places.

I DO think its a suspison remover, and all its telling a coyote, hopefully, is a lot of other coyotes have been here, come on in....

2)when I used speed dip, I had heavily rusted traps, and in rain, they were avoided like the plague. being a rookie, I started spraying them and started catching coyotes in them so sprayed more and started catching more. Does urine cover up the rust? No- but it says...lots of coyotes were here, come on in.......

3) I don't believe you cannot have a good set, without using urine- but again "the majority of coyotes the majority of the time", the actions of my mentors and the results on my line, lead me to a working conclusion that while not using urine doesn't preclude a set from being good- the use of urine makes it a great set.

4)why limit yourself by saying it doesn't have the value of a great bait so therefore not use it? the value is that, IMO, it enhances the appeal of bait.

time to go set some traps- slight drizzle, overcast week suppose to be warm and sunny, cooler toward later week, and dry which means I have more opportunities to drive places that would be dicey if a rainy period.i

[trappnman]

yesterday, both Lori and I used a quart, for 10 sets- so about 3.5 ozs a set-

[trappincoyotes39]

So the question would be what does 4oz of pee do that 1-2 would not, at the set?

Are you fogging the entire trap set on new sets? or directing the pee to a specific location on fresh sets?

[trappnman]

covers more area-

not a specific location at all, rather covering a large area pattern and beyond- a heavy mist

I'm not using urine in any way as a focus point or a lure- as a suspicion remover only.

[trappincoyotes39]

Isn't the smell though the suspicion remover? So what difference if concentrated in one area at the set versus fogged over the entire set? In fact coyotes do not spray urine they deposit it where needed. If the idea as a suspicion remover at a new set what happens when they lock onto the bait and lure? is their minds still on the concept of another coyote or fox being there or is it bingo the reaction to dog and investigate the odors they give off?

My main use of urine is on a remake IMO to even out all the odors coming from the circle and to help with pin pointing odors like blood,rust etc. I use maybe 1-2 oz on a remake . Yet urine will not hide odors like human scent and heavy rust but offer a very short advantage at best, maybe that is until they react to the other REAL attractors so to speak, but setting many fresh sets with no urine I have not seen where I am at a disadvantage of catching those coyotes in short order.

My main issue with urines is the non target increase if you have deer, rabbits, porcupines, well I choose to the leave the urine sit in areas of species like these in any numbers.

[trappnman]

I've caught zero rabbits, had zero traps set off by deer, etc this year, and over a year its so minimal as to be moot.

stay off the trials.

O'G says, in rusting conditions, he uses urine very heavily, to cover up that scent. I found that out long before I read the book, and the proof is the pudding

so you think a set is better, that reeks with your scent at the approach, with just a little bit of lure and bait in the hole, and a shot of urine on the backing? If that works best for you great- quite the opposite works best for me. I want him walking over urine for 3,4,5 feet before the hole- so MY smell isn't dominant, so that COYOTE smells ARE

you believe in minimal scents at a hole- no way can you understand what I mean, with that belief.

I'm not about to try to change your mind on how you use urine- but ask yourself why most of the old time guys, used lure they splashed all over the set? what was their reasoning? When did urine become a lure? with the advent of coyotes going into fox trapper areas?

[trappincoyotes39]

You really think that urine covers up your human odor? I have found the opposite to be factual when calling coyotes and trying to use urine. Ar best offers a guy a few seconds but as they break down that human smell they won't hang around long urine or not when down wind. Calling is best approached with them not getting your scent on approach and can be done with high success. But not relevant t to this discussion.

We all leave scent at a set the time it takes to break down to a level those coyotes are comfortable with takes on many specifics to an area. In some areas coyotes seem not to be bothered by the sight of humans or their smell, other areas coyotes catch wind of you and they turn tail and are gone, also depends on the coyotes as well.

A guy I know goes out to California every January with his bees to pollinate almond fields, he sees coyotes all the time while out there and tells me they pay little attention to humans as they cause them no trouble.

Not minimal but I also have never seen or have the belief that I need to over use good bait or lure either. To me it makes a difference as to what is the lure made up of a food base, a loud call lure, a curiosity lure and weather conditions. many coyotes have pulled getters with a good getter bait and they aren't covered in a massive glob of bait. WE keep talking about my 3 drop deal but the fact of that matter is that is how I use strong call lures in conjunction with bait and other lures. If a coyote can smell me at 300 yrds away I feel confident than they can work out what is in my loud call lure with less of it a few feet away from them. The other lure and bait is what keeps them actively working the set.

dead piles are far different as they are accustomed to them and will work new ones after a period of time. I have seen many times when setting up draw stations for winter use that it takes a few days for them to get acquainted with them before they rush head first into a pile of carcasses, but once they do then adding to them causes little issues. Scott H had a bait station down the hill from his house to observe behavior and they would come in like clock work until he would add to them and they would hold back until his odor mitigated to a certain level. usually 2 days and they where back on it. Now that is in his area but parts of the country human scent to coyotes means food and opportunity so they bother little with human presence.

I was with a rancher once looking at some beaver damage he was having, he had a dodge dully diesel truck loud and we where going down a drainage and I watched 3 coyotes down in the bottom have little fear of that big old loud truck, He said if you want come back when we are done looking at the beaver and shoot them, so we did what we had to at the beaver deal and the coyotes still just relaxing and loving life, until I came back down in there with my gas pickup and they saw it and where gone in a heart beat. The lesson learned they got used to the diesel sound because he would cake feed the cattle with it and to them at meant a food source at times, yet my truck trigger them into a full panic. I had guys with tractors same thing the tractor meant a positive they came back in a truck they where off, so many just kept a rifle in the tractor and would get 75 yrd shots at those coyotes.

If you feel,urine doesn't hold an attraction to rabbits, porcupines, skunks then so be it. I have caught mule deer in coyote traps and letting them go well let's say not real fun and by ones self can be dangerous. I never felt the best coyote locations lack a big majority of non targets either. I have caught skunks and porcupines in areas where I have taken 20+ coyotes out of. None of us will ever be non target free but I do what I can to minimize that as well. No different with deer they are in areas where some of my better coyote areas are as well. deer have a big fascination to urine as well as raccoons we can debate them being non target or gas money etc. Again area dependent Inahve a great location down this way along some RR tracks great location for coyotes yet the skunks and possums still use this area along with the coyotes.

I too think on the rusting issue urine has a purpose to a point it buys one some time, don't really know the chemical changes involved in such just have seen it helps, but on remakes I am out nothing as it already reeks of urine and other smells so adding urine there is not something I worry about. I will spray the trap with the urine and then cover it up with dirt and more urine, but once the rust gets scaled then urine seems to help little as I have had too many traps in this condition dug up. Best IMO to replace traps on the d edge or pop in a new set if needed.

[trappnman]

You really think that urine covers up your human odor?

NO!


Absolutely not- but I do believe, that urine lessens the effects of human odor at a set. You don't believe that to be true, so lets move on

We all leave scent at a set the time it takes to break down to a level those coyotes are comfortable with takes on many specifics to an area. In some areas coyotes seem not to be bothered by the sight of humans or their smell, other areas coyotes catch wind of you and they turn tail and are gone, also depends on the coyotes as well.


IMO, much over an hour old, and coyotes don't turn tail at a human's scent- they know "not here now". Urine acts as....da ta da dah! a suspicion remover- NOT a coverup


how I use strong call lures in conjunction with bait and other lures.

so multiple lures AND other attractions? sounds familiar......

If you feel,urine doesn't hold an attraction to rabbits, porcupines, skunks then so be it.

actually, what I said, was "don't set on trails" meaning that if I don't set right on top of COTTONTAILS and deer, then problem is moot. Besides- I thought you were a high tension guy? what jackrabbits do is meaningless for me- but I DO know this- make big dirtholes in good rabbit country, and you are going to catch as many because of the hole, as urine use.

if its a problem for you- then you are right, don't do it. Its not for me.

I never felt the best coyote locations lack a big majority of non targets either

I feel just the opposite

[trappincoyotes39]

Big holes are not my thing auger sized holes for the majority of my dirt hole sets. remember out west I used a lot more flat sets due to soils and rock in many Good coyote locations. They worked well. easier digging in the Midwest overall so more DH with an auger. Size to me isn't near as important as how deep can I get it. urine and the salts in it attract non targets just that simple, trying to figure out when your in good porky country where they will be is not easy as those dang things seem to find a trap with urine about like a lamb in 1,000 acre pasture

An hour or so? That would be nothing but a guess on your part correct? Again comes back to where one is and the coyotes,humidity,soils, vegetation, where is the set location etc. Reeks of my scent? define reeks and then what time is that coyote coming through after I made such set? I have checked traps 4:30 am and had calls later that day from land owners saying you have a coyote in your trap, well he came after I checked said trap, so it didn't seem to bother those..........

High tension yes, but jack rabbits are not small cottontails and I have also caught swift fox with hi tension because what I am offering seems to be of very high interest to them as well. I caught one swift in very rugged broken coyote country not a swift fox location at all but there was the swift sitting in a 3 Bridger with a PIT pan.

[trappincoyotes39]

Your answer is you put HIGH value to urine at your sets while I do not on fresh sets I could take it or leave it and more often than not leave it....................

Let's hear from some others on urine as a mainstay at most sets made.

The old timers splashing lure all over a set well, that is something I would not advise especially if said lure caused a digging or rolling reaction to it.

OG wrote that before you started coyote trapping as well.

[trappnman]

yes, I put high value on urine use

An hour or so? That would be nothing but a guess on your part correct?

yes, just a guess-

scent is very intriguing, and for the 20 or so years I competed in beagle fd trials, I learned a lot about scent, and how it stays, moves, etc- and I have zero doubt, that as sophisticated as a coyote nose is, that a coyote has no trouble in the world knowing you are not there (that the scent is old) after a very, very short time.

but you do leave human scent- and I take very little precautions in attempting to leave minimal trace of myself- and while I know coyotes know I'm not there, and not a direct threat, I also think that a bunch of my scent, at the hole can make thme work a set differently, can make them overly cautious- and I believe, and this is something I've tried, not used, tried, not, enough times to SEE a definitive difference in using a pint a year vs using gallons of the stuff and the reason is, again in my opinion, that the smell of urine (faint as it might be because urine dissipates rather quickly and in fact is one thing I do renew at remakes- seldom bait/lure unless hole totally gone) around the set does act to lower their guard.

but lets look at your method- why bother putting urine over a trap that reeks, as does the whole catch circle, of coyote? there is urine all over that catch circle- that coyote has piddled all over during the night, and certainly on extended checks. plus there usually is a dropping or two- that I leave where they are.

point is I'm NOT using urine or scat as a lure- my bait & lures are my bait and lure (and we use several of the same, I know that)

and to really open up discussion- I further think that 99% of the time, digging at the trap is because of the bedding- not a few drops of blood, lure etc on trap- as Wiley once said- I'd hope what I got down the hole in quantity, outweighs the interest in a micro drop or 2 on the trap

[trappincoyotes39]

On a remake there can be many scents involved again varies a lot if they blow out a hole many will get bait odors on the trap, blood etc, I give each remake trap a quick scrubbing with a wire brush that has a scraper edge on it as well, the urine again for in explained reasons helps keep a trap that starts and goes through the rusting process less noticeable to a coyote. To a point as has been mentioned many times. I also like to move my sets to the edge another reason for longer chain, I feel at times inside of a catch circle and loose dirt it creates more digging and scratching because of what is inside the middle of the catch circle as far as odors go and loose soils. Plus you do,get bait and lure odors spread about inside as well if they really blow the holes out. Tough to do much with that IMO, hence the digging around the traps at times.

I assure you digging because of bedding doesn't relate as I pack in my traps very tight always have and always will for the benefits it brings for me.

No precautions either I get in and get out fairly fast, everything I need is at hand, cable anchor already attached to traps, drill DH or flat set, dig trap bed, set anchor, cover and pack trap add bait and lure and gone. I do have my pair of boots that are used only for trapping not other things that is as far as I go with scent containment control.

Remakes to me are a different deal than a fresh set...................

My urine usage through the years has far more at remakes than fresh sets.

[trappnman]

I didn't mean you specifically Randy- I was referring to the general masses of land trappers.

yes, I fully agree on the rusting- some say it matters not, but I've seen way too many rusting traps with tracks everywhere but over trap, and then seen that the application of heavy urine makes that go away.

A question- if you don't consider urine a lure, then why place it in one spot? isn't pinpointing where it is, making it act like a lure (new sets)?

remakes might well cause digging and scratching- but I've never seen the remake problems I hear about so often. Again this year, far more of my coyotes at locations with remakes and fresh sets- the next coyote is in a remake, Just had one today, 3 days in a row same set- with a fresh set sitting 30 feet away. I did, on 2 locations that have given me, 4, and 5- throw in a fresh set- but more because I feel "I should" than any real benefit I see on the line

[Deleted]

TC, you're getting me confused! It seems as though you're using the word "lure" interchangably with urine. Are you saying that urine is a lure or is it just the way you're writing or I'm reading?  Studies have pretty much proven urine isn't a lure so as I read this thread what are you saying,?

In your opinion, is urine a suspicion remover(my definition of "suspicion remover" is that a coyote approaching a set knows a human has been there at some time but so has a bunch of others of it's kind so it feels better/more confident/less neophobic about investigating the other good odors it's also smelling[lure/bait]) and if you say no, what exactly then do you think urine is doing when applied?

[trappincoyotes39]

Does a coyote squirt piss all over the place or lift their leg or squat and deposit pee?

I like to keep all odors on a fresh set above the trap and by the backing.

A coyote has an attraction to pee and depending on time of year it can be greater than others like marking territory in the spring and summer versus much less of that in the fall. Studies also show alpha males do much of the urinating durring time of territory holdings. At much higher rates .

Theybalso show that coyotes spend about 2x's the amount of time checking out urine from non related coyotes as they do related. So is it a lure or not? No factual answer some great as a lure some as a so called suspicion remover. The studies also say, that scent marking is a different deal than just peeing for the sake of a full bladder, the rates, the locations being the same time after time. Those key areas of scent marking at certain times of the year become great spots to take coyotes for obvious reasons.

Studies also will tell you that stronger odors carry further so is urine a top notch lure? or is something with more carrying power like skunk and others a better lure? Studies on fox show over marking in the presence of foreign urine markings, so again just a suspicion remover or a lure ?

The responses from urine are they as beneficial as a lure or bait compounded of multiple ingredients? Again time of year and what your expecting from it. I know of no,one that uses urine at a getter, yet they kill 100's of coyotes on them if urine was a GREAT suspicion remover why not use it around every getter? many coyotes will investigate a getter getting them to pull them a far different story. The getter itself creates little fear to them, neither should a trap set in the right places and that fits the area generally speaking.

The problem being we are talking trapping season time and that is when the least amount of scent marking is done for obvious reasons, you don't have coyotes holding much territory at these times of year and you have pups breaking away from am and pa in many areas of the US.

So does it really matter if one is using fox pee or coyote pee at a coyote set?

I again will state I do not find urine at fresh sets to be the end all and needed at the majority of them, if I want urine ere it will generally be mixed with gland lure and used at flats sets if I get the notion to use it at dirt holes if is going beyond the trap every time. Urine is still a mystery that even studies and science have not proven out yet.

Ask a deer hunter is deer urine is a suspicion remover or attractant? depends on the urine type and what time of year...........

[bogio]

Think these have all been up before but pertain to the conversation.



First check, first location two seasons ago. Not only did one coyote not care I had been there earlier the day before, two didn't care.


click it

First check, first location last season. Again, not only one but two didn't care about my doings the day before.


click it

Checked here in the dark, came back in the afternoon to remake some sets and found that this one did not care that I had been through earlier wallowing around.


I don't worry much about my stink. Just be sensible and set. Some sets get urine all over from a squirt bottle, some get it down the hole. I almost always remake by augering out the original hole. If the trap looks like it is or is going to rust, cut the damn rivet and hook up a new one and get to it. I find that if I am catching coyotes, I'm catching few non targets. If I'm catching trash, I'm not catching many coyotes. As far as porkys are concerned, last one I saw was several hundred miles west of here squashed into the shoulder of the road. I pulled some quills out of it for my collection.

[bogio]

Oct 20, 2014 18:29:44 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Does a coyote squirt piss all over the place or lift their leg or squat and deposit pee?

I like to keep all odors on a fresh set above the trap and by the backing.

A coyote has an attraction to pee and depending on time of year it can be greater than others like marking territory in the spring and summer versus much less of that in the fall. Studies also show alpha males do much of the urinating durring time of territory holdings. At much higher rates .

Theybalso show that coyotes spend about 2x's the amount of time checking out urine from non related coyotes as they do related. So is it a lure or not? No factual answer some great as a lure some as a so called suspicion remover. The studies also say, that scent marking is a different deal than just peeing for the sake of a full bladder, the rates, the locations being the same time after time. Those key areas of scent marking at certain times of the year become great spots to take coyotes for obvious reasons.

Studies also will tell you that stronger odors carry further so is urine a top notch lure? or is something with more carrying power like skunk and others a better lure? Studies on fox show over marking in the presence of foreign urine markings, so again just a suspicion remover or a lure ?

The responses from urine are they as beneficial as a lure or bait compounded of multiple ingredients? Again time of year and what your expecting from it. I know of no,one that uses urine at a getter, yet they kill 100's of coyotes on them if urine was a GREAT suspicion remover why not use it around every getter? many coyotes will investigate a getter getting them to pull them a far different story. The getter itself creates little fear to them, neither should a trap set in the right places and that fits the area generally speaking.

The problem being we are talking trapping season time and that is when the least amount of scent marking is done for obvious reasons, you don't have coyotes holding much territory at these times of year and you have pups breaking away from am and pa in many areas of the US.

So does it really matter if one is using fox pee or coyote pee at a coyote set?

I again will state I do not find urine at fresh sets to be the end all and needed at the majority of them, if I want urine ere it will generally be mixed with gland lure and used at flats sets if I get the notion to use it at dirt holes if is going beyond the trap every time. Urine is still a mystery that even studies and science have not proven out yet.

Ask a deer hunter is deer urine is a suspicion remover or attractant? depends on the urine type and what time of year...........

It is claimed by some that nothing but correctly collected, winter, meat fed urine is needed. The rest is just fluff.


One of these days they are going to try it to prove that is the case.

[Deleted]

Well, there appears to be an universal difference of opinion and in books, videos, as reflected in this discussion concerning urine use in general. Too much vs too little, large area vs spot, dark vs light, etc. It appears to me to be all subjectiveness and conjecture based strictly on the feeling/opinion of the user. No one can say quantifiably speaking, urine used one way will catch more coyotes and if you use it the other way you'll catch fewer. I'd say however urine is chosen to be used, if it gives confidence to the user, they certainly should use it however they see fit!

[trappincoyotes39]

I have had places out west that yielded 20-30 coyotes the deer where there and so where the coyotes and for good reason. We didn't have possums out there but we had lots of porky's . The possum of the west except way better money from the porky guard hair that is a fact.

Areas are different for sure and again many Midwest coyotes are more accustomed to human scent than other areas just the way it is.

I have noticed in some of my areas where I have been on a 24 hr check for 4 years now that these coyotes work with human interaction far better than other areas out west. Different land use practices and land holdings and pressure applied for sure.

Lots of non targets can be related to up and down cycles in their populations as well........

[trappincoyotes39]

Bogio, you hit the reason I started this thread that some think urine collection is above and beyond and only a select few do it right, that being 100 percent meat fed, which in reality not many coyotes can make that claim in life. seasonal food changes and we know it isn't 100 percent meat fed.

I also wanted to see who else held the belief that urine is needed at every set to be complete.