How much value do you put on urine?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman it isn't all those it is what is left of the population. Again not something your going to see in the fall fur trapping For the most part. A larger degree on annual trapping.

Av far as humidity well summer has higher humidity than the fall, more dew in the summer than the fall because as the dew point rises above 65 warm air has more moisture content than cool air.

if your falls produce more more moisture on the ground so be it, I never let dew affect me I get wet and go about life. Where I have lived hay is far over in the month of October no worries there.

The higher and thicker the vegetation the better it can hold the moisture...........

Look at road side pheasant brood count surveys and why they pick July to August to run them.


Rew Wing pottery? yes I have heard of it and in fact went to their web site, if you look their clay comes from South Dakota Tennesee and Virgina , so looks like you ran out of clay in Minniesota?


Gland versus curiosity and call lures one is natural the other is not.............

Repeated presentation of a stimulus will cause a decrease in reaction to the stimulus. Habituation is also proclaimed to be a form of implicit learning, which is commonly the case with continually repeated stimuli. This characteristic is consistent with the definition of habituation as a procedure, but to confirm habituation as a process, additional characteristics must be demonstrated. Also observed is spontaneous recovery. That is, a habituated response to a stimulus recovers (increases in magnitude) when a significant amount of time (hours, days, weeks) passes between stimulus presentations.
Habituation is an extremely simple form of learning, in which an animal, after a period of exposure to a stimulus, stops responding. The most interesting thing about habituation is that it can occur at different levels in the nervous system. Sensory systems may stop, after a while, sending signals to the brain in response to a continuously present or often-repeated stimulus (Cohen et al. 1997). Lack of continued response to strong odors is a common example of sensory habitation. Habituation to complex stimuli may occur at the level of the brain; the stimulus is still perceived, but the animal has simply "decided" to no longer pay attention (Rose and Rankin 2001).

Even odor habituation can take place centrally, in the brain. In rats Deshmukh and Bhalla (2003) hypothesized that cells in the hippocampus could time the intervals between odor inputs; frequent stimuli resulted, in their study, in a cessation of response at the level of the hippocampus..


Habituation is important in filtering the large amounts of information received from the surrounding environment. By habituating to less important signals, an animal can focus its attention on the most important features of its environment.

[Deleted]

From "Hoof Beats of a Wolfer", pages 46-47:

"It is a real mistake to leave the bone(T-bone) and scent after you leave.  If you do leave them, you allow them to be investogated 24 hours a day, year round and will lose their noveliness and curiosity."

"Jim Mast and others of his time, recommended cleaning up after yourself and not leaving your scent sticks, etc. behind.  Straight gland scent, urine or droppings, or even natural baits, no problem, but commercial preparations left behind ove the years , will cause a top scent to be less effective by the 2nd and 3rd year."

[trappincoyotes39]

Never, instead of cleaning up after your self I have found through the years just to change lure and baits on a rotational basis.

[trappnman]

TC- your views on moisture fall vs summer I disagree with 100% and it shows me you have little experiece with such weather- but be that as it may, what I've seen day after day year after year walking those fields, tells me all I want to know vis a vis dew and its actions in various times of the year. My whole darn life it seems at times is regulated by dew/moisture. I give your conclusions on this NO validity-

and yes, the pottery took all of our clay- good grief

never- I just don't buy that. the only possible scenario to me, is if someone would use 1 lure, at every set, over and over and over and over again- and who does that? and even then- an attactive odor is an attractive odor- what triggers the response is still going to trigger that response. dpesn;t everyone use a variety of lures EVERY YEAR?

one just can't SAY there is lure burnout, one has to at least have possibilites as to how and why.

and no one on this thread has addressed that

or even the main question-

WHY use urine AT ALL?

I do- because I feel it diminishes their guard at sets. If I thought its use was as a lure, I'd not use any

so why do those that feel urine IS NOT a suspicion remover, use it? if a a lure, thats fine- and we will agree to disagree.

[Deleted]

Nope, I'm not stating a persoanl opinion, I'm only quoting from O'Gorman's writings inrelation to this scent burnout tangent the thread has evolved into.  Just because "someone to the greatest magnitude" (as quoted) says something, I'm not a sheeple and take everything as written as the gospel! 

Someone may ask who the heck are you to challenge the wisdom of  "who said it to the greatest magnitude" and I'll say screw you and them, I've got a brain and I use it to think, not to blindly follow becuse someone said it was so!!!

I learned many, many, many,(that's right a frigin long time ) years ago with my trade(welding &  pipe fabrication) just because someone has been doing the same thing for years does NOT make that person an bonified expert in all facets of the endeavor and many times, not even the most elementary facet of the endeavor do they understand the basic concepts or WHY they succeed at what they're doing!!!  Why would I think trapping is different?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman Inhave been out in every month of my life in fields, draws,grass etc as well. Must be a difference in areas I guess? The pheasant routes are ran when the dew will be the highest to force those wet birds to the roadsides in the morning to get a good count.

You brought up the fact of the red wing pottery being made in the area to show the clay content of your soils correct? I stated they use little to none of the local clay they use other clays for a reason correct?

Gray gumbo alkaline clay is very hard on steel, a coyote strips the wax and you will get one ore catch at best and that trap is slimy rust unless than gray gumbo is bone dry. Again just staying from experience. That is when urine can help for that one extra catch but not once the rust gets slimy they can and will pick out that odor through pee, I have seen it, results in a dug up or pawed at trap. Time to replace with a fresh trap and set. Our alkaline was so high you could see the white strips and the locals called them alkaline blows and another issue is with water for livestock shallow water very heavy in it and poison for cattle. Hence the reason to go so deep out there for water.

Coyote behavior can affect the number of “visits”. Harris (1983) found that coyotes are more likely to visit scent-stations when they were away from areas with which they were familiar than when they were within familiar areas. Andelt et al. (1985) suggested that previous adverse experiences, such as having been trapped, reduced scent-station visitations by coyotes. Fagre et al. (1983) suggested that coyotes may become habituated to specific lures if they are repeatedly exposed to it; however, changing lures could elicit a different response.

Tman did you not read any of the research I posted?

You have OG, Mast, Tray,Me and other guys I know would tell you the same, I guess if your in disbelief so be it, the only way to prove it to yourself is trap 9-10 months out of a year on your farms using the same 2-3 compounded lures and baits and see for your self what takes place.


But if you feel urine makes that big of a difference in nightly catch rates keep on sprayin them down.

[trappnman]

TC- clay- I mentioned it because you, having never been in Mn or certainly SE Mn, have zero knowledge of our soils, and I mentioned the very thing my county is most known for, is their clay. they used local clay- come over sometime and I'll show you the clay pits and where the old rails ran bringing it to Red wing. I brought it up, showing your red herring was false- our soils hold mositure as well.

secondly- your continuing to state dew evaporates faster in fall than summer, is ludicris.

suggested? suggested isn't fact. Location shy, isn't lure burnout-

what does 1080 tell you about urine use?

and again- HOW do these coyotes becomes lure shy? you making test stations all summer, or trapping? Or just missing thme multiple times?

when YOU are using the term lure burnout you are saying entire populations are doing so- your own research shows singularity

and I simply do not believe that.

Never- yes, I knew your point and agree

[trappincoyotes39]

yes been to Minniesota many,many times SE Minn and NE Iowa not that much different close to the mighty river. Terrace farming and all the rest. Silage cutting, hay etc.

Been to many areas in SW Minn through the years as well. been to the north as well a cousin lives in cook, MN and another in Rochester area.

Don't know what 1080 says about urine use?

No test stations, if you don't get it ,well you don't get it fair enough..............

Not entire populations Again this is something you have never dealt with so be it. Year round Tman of course next years pup crop has never been dealt with , heck they haven't been born yet ........

Try year round trapping in the same areas is all I can tell you. I am not talking about trapping the cream and moving on for 6 weeks in the fall, in fact most of these guys that mention the same are not talking 6 weeks in the fall or running test stations.

Just talked with a good friend in Wyoming about 2 weeks ago who was ordering some more of a certain brand to change out on some of his sheep ranches. yep another believer and year round guy that changes out lures and baits due to habituation or what ever word you would like to use.

Easier to to switch out a few lures and baits versus cleaning up after ones self for sure.

[trappincoyotes39]

So to surmise you put a heavy value to urine at all sets. Thanks.

[TRay]

In my opinion there are several ways for lure burnout, one way is when they become location shy.
Say you have a location where you have made several catches and have reset in the catch circle, along comes a coyote that refuses to enter the catch circle may be skittish or seen his buddies in traps or whatever. If he is on edge of circleand knows something isn't right and can smell your lure he may connect the two in the future, do that to a female when she's got pups and they may learn too. Common, probally not but I know it happens and working in areas 12 months out of the year will put those coyotes on edge.
I know I had a trap dog once that I was only ever able to catch once when she was a pup, forever after that she would avoid any set with any bait or lure even new ones that I was testing. Wanted to break her of M-44s with pepper capsules, but she would avoid them like the plague even though they were completely different lures than what she was trapped on, she was smart enough that I believe if she had first witnessed another dog get caught I never would have trapped her at all.
Several years ago I had a conversation with a lure maker about this subject, he felt due to the fact that many lures use ingredients that may be exotic to the area that animals may actually be able to pick up on even 1 ingredient in a lure that may put them on alert. I later read a study done by USDA that showed the same thing.

I may be 100% wrong on this theory, but I only started thinking and digging on this subject after I saw on several occasions where my favorite lure or bait would start to lose effectiveness than after a couple year rest work again.

I do wish now that I had tested urine on my dog just to see what type of reaction I would get from commercial urine cause she shure didn't shy away from spots where coyotes pissed.

Another thing I run into in my area the past few years is a growing number of young trappers who got hooked on big dollar muskrats several years ago, now that the rats are gone kids have turned to coon and coyotes and it seems that the old #2 square jaw victor is the trap of choice. Far more are lost than held.

[jim]

I have always used some urine but! This year had a big rain. Going to refresh the urine next day. Oops I don't have any. Next three days before I got any had my best catch of the two weeks I trapped. Still not many coyotes here. Did have a best coyote price for me $96 for one at Jan. NAFA auction.

Jim

[trappnman]

no TC- I don't get it. first of all, lets stop the implication you have all that year round trapping experience. I sincerely doubt you have much more than me in TRAPPING summer coyotes.

secondly, glad you rode by my area- you for sure weren't out in the fields much, if at all, and certainly not enough to determine dew suppositions. but if you want to continue to blieeve dew dissapates MORE in the fall than summer (something as far away from real world experiences as stating the sun rises in the west) by all means continue on doing so- it certainly isn't the first time, nor the last you would draw conclusions based on nothing BUT suppositions.

and thirdly, you don't have to sumise I prefer lots of urine (but odd how some can use 2 ozs of urine and its "right on" but if I use 2 oz then its "heavy use". but I'll flat out tell you- I use what I cnsider a lot of urine, but isn't it more PLACEMENT of such, than QUANTITY you are objecting to??

TRay you caught your dog once- you RELEASED her- so I'll go along with that if you release your coyotes, you will get those that would become LURE SHY. I released 35 or so coyotes- caught 20% of them in the same location, same lures within a year. Other trappers caught a few as well- so certainly 1 experience with a trap doesn't come close to making individuals trap shy

now set shy, or location shy- whole different kettle of fish. Could not agree more- and when that occurs, you really only have 1 choice and thats to move locations. That was part of the fun (take the silver linings when you can) of trapping my last few locations far longer than I should have, and that was I DID have location shy coyotes- coyotes that would still come to the set location, walk around the sets, but shy from approaching. I have proven, to my own satisfaction and thats all that really matters on my trapline, that once a coyote truly becomes location (that set) shy, all the changing of lures in the world, isn't going to make any difference at all.

perhaps we need to reflect on what has been posted in this thread, all leading up to wholesale populations becoming burnt out on lures. NOW, TC says of course not, not whole populations, not burn out- but individals becoming lure shy.

and once again, we have gone full circle

[trappincoyotes39]

Ok Tman.............. Your year round coyote trapping experience is right there with the best of them and you have the same time in the field trapping coyotes spring and summer as Myself, Tray, and others I know who have seen the same.

Again you don't know what you don't know.

Your system works for you in the fall and others that trap year round many make the choice to rotate lures and baits. Each to their own.

[trappincoyotes39]

So Jim you had your best period without the use of urine, any thoughts as to why?

[trappnman]

no, its not- and neither is yours. tell me honestly, how many SUMMER adults you trapped as a WS man in SD? summer and trapped being key words.

I've asked you directly, multiple times to tell me how you are getting all those coyotes that are burnt out on the lure you use- and you are unable or unwilling to even attempt to answer. YOU made the claim- back it up not with research that barely devles into the principle, but with your own experiences or at least theorys.

but I guess first of all we need to redefine your position- I'm no longer sure so lets play a little game of either or-

either this is true of your position- 1) wholesale use of a singular lure, causes populations to become burnt out on that lure

or 2)some indivduals become shy to a particular lure sums up your position.

either or- which is it?

[trappnman]

so concerning jim- he had sets with urine, had a big rain, and 3 days later caught coyotes.

Are you, TC, suggesting that after a rian and 3 days- no urine smell left at sets? Cause that's the only conclusion posisble since oyu stated his sets were "without urine" when clearly 3 days before, they had urine.

[TRay]

Not every coyote is going to figure it out, but put pressure on them for 365 days year after year and suddenly there ain't a lot of dumb ones standing around looking to be killed. I've had coyotes that won't pull a m-44, not something that they would learn due to a bad experience as there is no second chance with them. I've seen coyotes that can't be snared, know how to avoid airplanes, won't work dogs and wont work traps though usually no 1 coyote is educated to every method. Now I also believe that when you have coyotes like this they are very capable of teaching these behaviors to others mainly being their pups.

In some of the area that I currently work I am dealing with about 70% adult coyotes due to intense aerial hunting during spring denning season and in some areas when calf kill season is in swing I may just take the den and pups as time and workload does not allow time to remove adults. On calf kills 99% of time remove den and killing will stop.

Trapperman get in a situation where you have to catch every last coyote in a area time after time and I think you would possibly understand. Over the years I have had the opportunity to visit with a number of Western ADC guys about lure burnout and every one of them felt it was a real issue. Most guys have there own theory's as to why or how it happens but they have seen it.

I also believe that even in a uneducated coyote population, not every coyote is going to respond to lure or bait, much like not every human likes the same foods or smells. Trap a area with the same smell year after year and it may be possible to have a good percentage of your population that is just not interested in the smell you have.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I would have to check my records packed away in a tub,how about you? There was never a spring/summer where I didn't have traps out in the ground. On multiple ranches. I used traps because I couldn't be every where every day. Snares the same.

Tman you keep coming back to all of those, in ADC it isn't all of those it is some what one needs to kill. Your thinking fur trapping versus ADC work the 2 are night and day different even though you do not believe such they are. That tells me your experience with such is limited in nature no offense just is. You have no sheep to protect and nor summer cattle issues. Your land owner tolerance for coyotes is much higher than the majority I worked for, again2 different worlds and mind sets your system works you want to cream the crop in nice weather and move on, so be it, that is different than trapping all year round on the same places.

So the answer is the coyotes in that given area that refuse to work what your offering and changing up scents and location traps these coyotes.


Location is part of it but I have moved and changed lures and baits and it has worked better than moving location and using the same lure and baits. Not just a singular lure or bait the same combinations as well. 2-3 lure bait Combos in an area for repeated use. So you can switch out inside the same brands or switch brands. Easy to do but many have seen a difference by doing so just fact.

Again not worried about gland lure and fresh natural baits. They work well, but so do some other compounded lures and baits. Again read the research and No we aren't talking fall populations of coyotes either. Everyone knows no matter what one used young coyotes are easier tot take with such tools doesn't matter which one your using.


Calling was a main tool of mine and then traps and snares on deperedation calls. During the drought years ,traps very important as if you had a body of water setting off back from that water usually meant 2-3 family groups using that single source of water. Because it was so scarce during those years.

Bottom line is people do such because of results. I have killed my share of hard to get coyotes with traps in the summer where all other options never panned out.

It could be one coyote or mutliples that show such, either way changing things up makes a difference to many people.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I never implied anything, I asked Jim his thoughts as to why his best period was one without daily urine useage? it rained he was going to refresh and didn't.

Nothing more or less, your inferring things not me LOL.

[trappnman]

jim said- I have always used some urine but! This year had a big rain. Going to refresh the urine next day. Oops I don't have any. Next three days before I got any had my best catch of the two weeks I trapped.

and you responded- you had your best period without the use of urine

and I asked about the only logical conclusion- since you stated "without urine" I assummed (me bad) that you meant "without urine"

and I then asked you if you concluded that 3 days after a rain, without adding urine, was the equivalant of not usng urine

you then come back with I asked Jim his thoughts as to why his best period was one without daily urine useage? when in fact that was not what you asked- and if that indeed was what yo uwere asking, I don;t reapply urine everyday, or every other day or every third day- in fact, in a week, I mighht or might not reapply to untouched sets. but since you couldn't defend what you posted you switch it to "daily urine use" and I'll go out on a limb and say jim was not stating he applied urine daily- just that his usual habit was to refresh after a rain (mine too sometimes). have you read by anybody, anywhere on this forum about daily urine use- yet now it will be your new herring.

and while we are on the subject of making shite up, you state "I think ADC work is the same as fur work" and not only is that false, it also goes agasint what I've stated many times.

2-3 lure bait Combos in an area for repeated use

truly, I think you've fallen down the rabbit hole, and am not going to follow you- that is something you have spoken against time after time after time! now, its your norm.


It could be one coyote or mutliples that show such, either way changing things up makes a difference to many people.


now you are talking apples, where you were trapping oranges.
--------------------

Tray-

Trapperman get in a situation where you have to catch every last coyote in a area time after time and I think you would possibly understand. Over the years I have had the opportunity to visit with a number of Western ADC guys about lure burnout and every one of them felt it was a real issue. Most guys have there own theory's as to why or how it happens but they have seen it.

so let me understand- you have an area, where you take out every last coyote.

You are using very few lures to begin with- only at 20% of your sets. Am I correct in believing that?

when you are satisfied the last resident coyote is gone, what do you do with the sets then?

I also believe that even in a uneducated coyote population, not every coyote is going to respond to lure or bait, much like not every human likes the same foods or smells. Trap a area with the same smell year after year and it may be possible to have a good percentage of your population that is just not interested in the smell you have.

I agree with your first statement 100%.

now on your second- are you implying you think that it becomes a genetic trait? That those very few that don't respond to the lure and get caught are doing so because of genetic makeup, and thus passing that along? If so, interesting and I would have no trouble saying that was a real possiblity.

In fact I give credance to the idea, and do think it applies- but it would apply to any trapped population- those having no genetic interest, for whatever trait that brings out, could well become the dominate breeding population, and recessives crossed make things occur. No doubt in my mind, that intensive rabbit hunting for example, breeds a population of more ground dwelling, external rabbits.

but new coyotes coming in, would not have that genetic trait

--------------------------------------------

I think we are using the terms location shy meaning the same as lure burnout-

and my defintion of lure burnout is that a coyote or coyotes has become so used to the lure, has investigated it by smelling it, tasteing it, rolling on it so many repeated occasions. like a pic farmer having no more reaction to the smell of pigs.

that in placing this lure miles away from the original trap location place, that while he used to be vigorusly interested in it, now its so old hat he never breaks stride.ok, say thats true.

WHY would a transcient coyote, feel the same?

and that is the crux of the discussion