ADC COYOTE PRICE

[TRay]

This spring I was glassing a area looking for a twin to a fawn we had collared the day before when I found a coyote den in the same quarter that the fawn was in, I figured the fawn would be dead within a week but was wrong. That fawn and several others within a mile of that location are still alive, nothing has been killed in that location.
In my opinion I don't believe all coyotes will kill deer, same with calves. I have found over the years that by far the majority of my calf killers have been older coyotes. I think it may take experiance before coyotes get bold enough to kill something that large, same may be true with killing deer, which may be why the fawns have been left alone.
Trapperman, I think you said in the past that you had a fairly high turnover in your coyote population. That may be the reason for low fawn and livestock predation in your area, not sure.
I have also found that generally in calf kills if I can remove one of the adults the killing will stop. Seems like it takes 2 experienced coyotes to get the job done.

Just for fun I looked up vole reproduction, 1 vole can have up to 15 litters in a year with her first batch having 12 litters in same year and those litters having litters at same rate on downSomething like 1 vole could potentialy be responsible for 20,000-40,000 additional voles in 1 year, think if a coyote is eating 10 a night and you remove him how many extra voles you are putting on landscape. LOL

[trappnman]

just did some reading myself- the average number of young raised to weaning, is 1.6. the average lifespan, is 1 month.

[RdFx]

Usually carp and bullheads arent in the same waters as trout. At least here in Wis. Suckers yes.

[trappincoyotes39]

Like I said which came first the chicken or the egg?

You guys keep knocking them out in the month of October and November and let me know how that helps with fawn production and reduce depredation of fawn deer.

Funny how that works that your best time to help out the deer population is when the fur is prime.

I agree very few bullheads in the trout streams that I've ever fished.

At least here in Missouri the otter is about is well-liked to a fisherman as coyotes are to a sheep Ranch or in the west.

I don't know too many other states that have the otter harvest Missouri does and yet still doesn't make a big dent in the overall population you can trap them later than most other furbearers as well they don't call them water wolves for nothing

Tman your estimated coyote harvest in 2012/2013 in your state was listed as 53,690! That is a crazy amount of coyotes and they all have their own place to call home and leaving areas void of such? I would figure this harvest had to come from the lower 2/3 rds for the most part due to the number of wolves in the northern 1/3 rd of the state?

[aaroncurtis]

My family has a hunting camp on Drummnd island at the east end of Michigans U.P. A local on the island used to put a whooping on the coyotes and since the wolves returned to the Island his catch rates have dropped dramatically. We used to hear coyotes all the time and we don't hear them nearly as much. About five years ago I was hunting one night and some coyotes were going crazy down in the swamp below me and then a Wolf howled behind me and I never heard another coyote that night. I always wondered if the coyote population was lower because of the wolves or if the coyotes just weren't as vocal because of the wolves presence.

[wileycoyote300]

edited: goodbye

[trappnman]

TC- don't know where you pulled that from- but the MN DNR states on their website the following:

Coyotes can be harvested by hunting and trapping. In Minnesota, roughly 4,000 are shot or trapped each year.

so if you say half of them are shot, that means 2000 or so trapped- and perhaps 1/2 of those snared

so heck- I trap about 1/10 of all the trapped coyotes in Mn each year

[trappnman]

aaron- no personal knowledge but talking to friends such as Rally who live in wolf country- they say wolves move in, coyotes move out. I'd also imagine those remaining, would be less vocal. Any here with thoughts on that?

[aaroncurtis]

I do agree that the coyotes probably will move out when the wolves move in and whatever coyotes remain probably won't be as vocal. Similar to when the bully on the block has a bigger bully move in and the old bully sneaks out the back door.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman read at the bottom of the arrival this was from a mm DNR guy?

www.pipestonestar.com/Stories/Story.cfm?SID=45305

[trappnman]

don't know what to tell you- I know John, he was point man on the otter program ,good guy- but I took my number direct from DNR website- so don't know what the paper is reporting.

[trappincoyotes39]

Well I go by what this guy stated to your paper is all. He is MINN DNR and made that number known or one heck of a typo. Bill Schuna seems to be the name quoted and hard to believe a typo because the other numbers mentioned are 5 figure numbers as well not 4.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman of course less vocal be like calling the dinner bell otherwise. Coyotes can co exists with Wolves but smaller numbers for sure, shrunken home range and less out and about by them. They did a collared study I believe in Yellowstone on this subject and showed that they didn't move around much and used the areas less used by the wolf pack in order to try and stay alive.

If your trapping 1/10 of the entire state harvest then your opening up all kinds of areas for newbies to move on into!

[trappnman]

there is no way your figures are right- but it doesn't matter.

heres the latest from the official DNR website- if you think they are lying, then that's up to you- I'll take it as fact, rather than a misquoted newspaper article.

www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/coyote.html

why you won't admit that killing any predator, reduces the intake of that animal, is beyond me. its akin to saying YOUR sun rises in the West...........

but I'm done on this one

[trappincoyotes39]

We are talking effective predator control for the benedit of other species and the timing to do such, that is why the simple analogy that a dead coyote is worth as much in October as it is in May holds little water. Science proves that out.

I Know if I want more deer on my place my best bet is to take them out on the den, the adults present and the pups, those fawns then have the best possible chance of seeing the fall possible. if I wait until October to kill those coyotes many of those fawns a dead, so how did I give them the best possible chance of survival waiting? I might give what is LEFT the chance to survive, but half of half is still less than the entire fawn drop in spring. Maximize their potential to see August and September would be my choice. I f a sheep rancher example only has 1,000 lambs come June 1 and I let them coyotes eat all summer by Sept 1 he has 800 left then I tell him no worries I am going to protect them now until you sell in October and I keep his loss rates at 5 percent so he losses another 40 that leaves him with 760 going to the sale barn, or I kill out those dens before they go to summer pasture and I keep his loss rates at that same 5 percent he takes 950 to the sale barn. No different than fawn deer what so ever.maximize the crop be it lambs or fawns.

tman the numbers I went by are what was posted by either the DNR guy or the paper if someone had the wrong numbers then so be it, I went by what was posted in 3 sets of past harvest numbers.

[trappnman]

WE AREN'T TALKING ADC CONTROL WORK ON DOMESTICATED ANIMALS

so comparisons with goldfish or emus or sheep or whatever means ZERO

I could repeat my argument over and over that a dead animal kills nothing, but it would be a waste of time.

NO ONE IS SAYING OR WILL BE SAYING THAT A ANIMAL KILLED IN OCT IS THE EQUAL OF 1 KILLED IN THE SPRING BUT THE VALUE OF THE OCT COYOTE ON WILDLIFE DAMN SURE ISN;T ZERO, AS YOU KEEP SAYING

[trappincoyotes39]

There is 4,000 coyotes in wabasha county alone is there not?

From your link:
From autumn until mid-winter, the pups leave the den and begin to search for their own territories.

Yet you claim little movement takes place? Your trapping on the micro not the macro so the effects one has on total population reduction over a large area means very little is done to control wildlife depredation in October.

You have ingress and egress taking place because of the smaller tracts Tman. Your basis would hold true if you where do large scale predator control over a larger area but hitting here and there your going to have movement regardless of food, in the fall/ mid winter is a natural time for movement to take place correct?

Killing out those adults and dens in the spring time leads to far less migration until the time you plan on trapping them in October if your killing them back far enough to begin with. Fill in is at the lowest durring the summer months again that is fact.

The dead animal kills nothing concept works only when one is killing the "predator" over a larger area and you then keep infiltration to very low numbers because you killed out a suficant number over a sufficient aarea to keep killing to a minimum.

ADC practices carry over from domesticated stock to wildlife has been proven many,many times.

Predation on many forms of willdife is additive and not compensatory to the overall population. Again depending on when your killing those coyotes and the size and scope of the control work being done.

So again no killing a few coyotes in October on smaller holdings is not the same as effective larger scale den removal in the spring time regardless of the resource being protected. Again fur trapping and predator control are two very different forms of a harvest and outcomes and goals far different as well.

[trappnman]

whatever you say

what I say There is 4,000 coyotes in wabasha county alone is there not?


you are freaking nuts- why make shite up just to make shite up? I mean if you are going to argue with the dnr of a state you don;t live in on the figures they post, fine, but I don't have to read it, or respond to it. Good GReif!

no more on this TC- its gone beyond silly

[Deleted]

Too Silly!

[northof50]

Black hammer to bad you did not ask me at the Minn conference and I would have put you in touch with two Manitoba trappers and their ADC COST in Canada and this thread would not have gotten to 6 pages
The only coyotes in wolf country are ones the trappers get in their travelsDOR and claim on their sales records