ADC COYOTE PRICE

[trappincoyotes39]

Rshaw those coyotes will,get removed at some point on their own, never bought a lot into that theory as the majority of livestock killing coyotes are aggressive sorts not submissive types. Again all timing of the year and the pecking order.

Tman the assumptions you say are mine really are yours of what you think I am stating LOL.

1. never stated local wildlife population. But if we think about it why do coyote choose to den where they do? What are the keys to what a coyotes looks for,in a denning location?

2. There are many denning locations in any area but some are better than others exspecially if you have more than one family group hitting the same food source. Hence the reason they get used each and every year by knew coyote pairs, really that simple. Things change drastically so does the denning locations. Things remain more constant they keep getting used.

You state food is everywhere so why would they not use the same generalized areas? if good enough for the previous coyotes why not good enough for next years breeders? if things stay the same? If you think a coyote den can be anywhere then so be it. They look for keys to raise pups in most areas.

3. As soon as the coyotes are killed others move in, well depends on the time of year as Tray stated, the densities you have in a given area and if your looking at fill in on the 80 acre parcel or looking at a larger area? Unless your looking to kill the area out your leaving the seed that will be next springs breeding stock so your fill in would be slower because of what YOU leave after taking the cream and moving on. Would love to come locate coyotes about march in your area to see just how this all plays out .

The otter reference was this not what you stated. If I kill a few otters out of a family group and leave the rest what good am I doing the guy with a trophy pond of bass or catfish? I tell him boy I got 3 otters in Novemeber so your in good shape by next spring he goes to working rubber worms or spinner baits that normally produce bass or cut shad that produce catfish and he catches 1/10 the norm and most of his 5-7 lb bass are gone and his 10-15lb catfish are gone what good did I really do him? yes here because otters are much like coyotes you can get a permit easy enough to kill otters when damage is occurring not waiting for the fire to have already gone through.

The point remains as you have eluded to already, spring is the time to kill coyote for the benefit of much Wildife and livestock. Not fall fur trapping time...............

Predator control and fur trapping are 2 very different approaches that we have to agree upon do we not?

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman unless the fawns where collared how do you know if any fawn depredation occurred? Did they have temp sensors on these collars?

[TRay]

We have lost about 40% of the fawns that we collared this spring, would suspect 55-60% by end of 1 year as that is about what we have seen in past.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tray I read an artical on this very subject and is becoming a hot topic with QDM and other groups like minded on maximum deer benefits on their lease or private grounds because now with EHD being more prevalent in many states and areas of each state and many more harvest seasons the states feel the pressure along with landowners to find out why deer numbers are not bouncing back or maintaining like they did years previous.

We all,know the insurance companies love the new trend in deer numbers LOL. yet hunters are starting to take notice to the much reduced numbers. Here amissouri has for the past many years had healthy deer populations since I have moved here I see less deer than I did in NW SD for sure. I used to be able to drive 20 miles of HWy 212 and find many road killed deer along that stretch, here in NW Missouri I see very few road killed deer and even durring the fall not many deer as I thought I would. I can really see a noticeable difference in the number of deer here in this area and what people told me used to be here prior to 2011. EHD plus more coyotes and more depredation keeps them from bouncing back and the tag allotments have proven that out here. With far reduced doe tags and this year the talk of shortening the rifle deer season state wide.

[aaroncurtis]

Here's a bunch of pics from my brothers game camera where a pair of coyotes ambushed this fawn at the mineral lick site. Coyotes being coyotes
Judging by the fact that you see the coyotes taking down the fawn I am guessing the coyotes laid up on this lick site waiting for the fawn. I have numerous pics of coyotes actively checking out my mineral lick stations and in several cases I have had pics of coyotes bedded down in the weeds in front of the cams.
www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/coyotes-killing-fawn.515117/

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2015 20:31:06 GMT -6 aaroncurtis said:

Here's a bunch of pics from my brothers game camera where a pair of coyotes ambushed this fawn at the mineral lick site. Coyotes being coyotes

www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/threads/coyotes-killing-fawn.515117/

Perfect!  

Now TC, if I had killed those coyote in November fur trapping would those two coyotes, not others, those two specific coyotes be seen on the vidoe killing that specific fawn?  Of course not because they would be dead.  So, if those coyotes were already dead, that fawn would be alive or at least not killed by those two coyotes.  That is how my property owners look at trapping/killing coyote!  One or two less coyote, one or two more fawns.

"AH-HA she was heard to cry as she threw her leg on the kitchen table, peg-legged girls can have fun too!"

[trappnman]

blackhammer- of course its a small sample- but its the only sample from here, and it was posted only to show that predation of fawns was not automatic, I have no doubt it occurs- but, or so it would appear in a multi year study going from Goodhue to Houston, that predation on fawns is not high- certainly not close to the 40% TRay mentioned. An easy conclusion is that fawns are not high on the list, and venison in scat, does not increase during spring, early summer

TC- the fawns were collared.

TRAY- the 2 studies show different areas, have different results. Did I also point out that all seasons- voles were the #1 food source here?

TC- the only point I am debating with you- is your strong assertion that killing coyotes anytime but in the spring, has zero impact on wildlife numbers. I say it does, you say it does not. hard to move off that rock you climbed, so let it be

Food IS everywhere-WHY WOULD THEY MOVE if food was their goal? I honestly cannot see how that statement doesn't stand alone. Animals migrate FOR A REASON- not cause they got a day off.

on the otter- I could, really, really and truly- give a rats ass about any farmer losing animals or fish to coyotes, otter or bumblebees. They choose that profession- figure it out or not.

I'm concerned about PUBLIC wildlife, and as such- if you have 5 otter and kill 3, you have reduced the food intake by 60%- meaning 60% more fish, frogs, clams, etc. That's not debatable, that's just math and common sense.

Deer- on open land, on mixed public and private land, benefit from less predators, all year. Again, its just math, and common sense.

blackhammer- the reasons you turned down the job, are why I charge a setup fee, and somewhat "high" prices

[TRay]

Trapperman, so what your saying is in your area coyote trapping has no impact on the deer population but your doing your best to increase the vole population. Not sure about your landowners I don't think I could sell that to mine. LOL

[Deleted]

Speak of the devil! One of my property owners who has a large(500 acres) deer hunting acreage flagged me down this morning to show me this. Little boy learning how to be a big boy! Camera is setup about 50 yds from my primary setting location.

 

[trappnman]

I guess that is one way of looking at it.


I'm not saying coyotes don't take a fawn cause that would be untrue, but I don't think that here, the coyote populations has much effect on the overall deer population. I do think the coyote populations have a direct impact on small game and birds, far more so than on deer

but the same is true for cows here as well- loosing a calf to a coyote happens very rarely around here, it truly its something landowners don't even think about.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman otter and coyotes do not kill just for food they kill for the sake of killing at times and to teach pups how to hunt, so kill those adults and pups in the spring and there is no teaching taking place on that farm or ranch for that season for the MOST part. Livestock or wildlife.

In fact otter will clean out a pond quickly and not all are eaten, here in Missouri our otter harvest is very large and has little impact, so much so a few legislators wanted to put a bounty on River otter. So in that regard common sense not so common,I guess?


Never if you could kill those coyotes in the spring that little boy would be worm food and not on the trail cam !

Never kill back those coyotes the highest majority of them and you don't have to worry about those 2 or another 2 because you killed them back in the spring and summer. Again they wouldn't make it to the video which by the way your link doesn't work!

[aaroncurtis]

TC,
I believe that was my link. Could you guys not view the coyote pics with the fawn?

[aaroncurtis]

Here they are if the links not working for you guys. It probably isn't if your not a member on that forum which I am sure most aren't except for Never.

[trappincoyotes39]

Thanks Aaron proves my point rather well, these coyotes are killing in July you kill them in May or June that fawn and others would be around unless disease got them for the most part.

Never seems to think that by waiting until November and then killing these coyotes he has saved fawns, they are dead in the summer so yes a dead coyote in Novemeber is well a dead coyote but they have already effected the fawn population by the time he gets steel in the ground and under normal conditions this area would have coyotes in it come next spring or close enough to cause an impact to the wild deer Hurd.

Kill them when you want but no better time for maximum fawn production than the spring and early summer months. I would have a very hard time telling a person looking for max deer or livestock by me trapping for 6 weeks in the fall we can and will achieve those results.

[aaroncurtis]

I don't think Never is arguing that fall is better than spring for coyote killing. Unless your doing ADC work (correct permits) then were stuck following the guidelines the DNR has set forth for us. And unless it changes (or landowner hires a licensed) ADC guy then the landowners get what they get and that's dead coyotes in fall/winter. While not ideal it's what we/they have to work within the time constraints were given. And in my area coyotes are more of a perceived problem than an actual problem. Sure they snack on fawns but our deer populations are high as it is and everything balances out in the end. My family has sheep and we have never lost a lamb to a coyote. I should note that we do have donkeys in with the sheep.

[aaroncurtis]

Anyone notice how many pics the coyotes were looking up in the air.

[Deleted]

Sept 2, 2015 19:55:01 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Never seems to think that by waiting until November and then killing these coyotes he has saved fawns, they are dead in the summer so yes a dead coyote in Novemeber is well a dead coyote but they have already effected the fawn population by the time he gets steel in the ground and under normal conditions this area would have coyotes in it come next spring or close enough to cause an impact to the wild deer Hurd.

No, that is incorrect TC.  I am not "waiting" for anything nor arguing the point, I can only kill coyote between 10/15 & 3/1!!  I do know that a dead coyote can no longer eat regardless of the time of year.  If it's dead before spring fawn drop it is not eating in-addition to the coyote still alive!  It's death is still a subtraction from the whole.

[trappnman]

agreed never-

aaron thanks for the pics, and your comment about your area.

[trappnman]

so killing summer coyotes helps wildlife, but killing fall coyotes does not?

that seems to be your theme, beyond that removing animals doesn't reduce the total number of prey animals killed, which is a statement that truly boggles my mind.

A small trout stream- never had otter living there, last year (2013)killed those 2 otter- no otter since- but good to know killing those otter had no bearing on the trout eaten by otter on that creek.

[TRay]

One would have to know if your trout population was at the streams carrying capacity, was there a surplus? nature always produces an excess of prey populations trout/deer/voles all included. Coyotes may be eating the natural surplus of deer same as otter could be in trout.

We as trappers talk about being managers of wildlife by removing excess or the surplus furbearer populations to prevent disease or overpopulation, same could be said for most any other predator.

Otter could just as well be eating a lot of suckers,carp,bullheads all of which can prey on trout and their eggs. Removing the otter may actually hurt the trout population. Not saying for sure they are, but just trying to point out that not everything is black and white in these situations.
Same with deer, get to high of densitys in the right areas at the wrong time and things like EHD or CWD can show up and do far more destruction to a deer herd than coyotes ever will.
Nature usually has a way of balancing everything out.