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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 9:58:12 GMT -6
The points you both brought up are great to show that their goals are minor ones and not major events LOL.
Coyotes eat deer yep but what is the cause and effect? Coyotes eat gophers but what is the cause and effect?
In terms of dollars in and out where is the producer and what is he/she willing to accept for Dollars out due to predation? What is the deer hunter willing to accept?
The issue being your examples have little impact same with fur trapping coyotes in the fall and the results of spring fawn recruitment cone next August.
Perception is different than results.
Had a few guys no badger trapping they eat prairie dogs yet we stand over a 250 acre dog town full of them LOL, if he wanted the p dogs dead position bait far quicker and more effective for sure than 20 badgers LOL
My point being I would not lead a land owner to believe that my fall fur trapping of coyotes is going to garner better lambing results come May/June the following year as that would be false and misleading. Same telling the deer or antelope hunter my fall fur trapping is going to show more fawns on your trail cameras next August either.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 10:04:29 GMT -6
Yes I get the customer is always right line of thought but not how I choose to live. That is why I could never be a car salesman LOL
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 12:22:47 GMT -6
You don't have to lead a deer hunting property owner into believing anything TC. Every coyote that is now dead that wasn't before stepping in a trap is no longer eating his deer and small game. That means to him that those animals that would have been daily prey are still alive. It also says to the property owner that every coyote made dead during trapping season will not be able to eat a fawn or a dozen fawns next spring. He also understands the converse of that statement being if that coyote is alive in the spring it'll eat as many fawns as it's able! Wouldn't you say that was true? You kill a sheep-killing coyote for a farmer, what happens? The dead coyote can't eat anymore sheep!
Why do you think farmers shoot deer in their bean fields? Same reasoning, shoot the deer, dead deer don't eat beans, so there are more beans for the farmer to harvest. Now these may be minor events to some but not in the mind of the property owner or the wallet of the farmer.
Also, if the fur trapper has little to no impact on coyote numbers or prey survival why is it that after the 1st year of fur trapping a virgin property there is an obvious drop in coyote sign year-round? Seriously, never have I seen a return of original numbers or sign that the coyote have returned as previously virgin. Also as would be expected, the catch rate drops correspondingly and levels off from the 1st year and stabilizes to some degree every year thereafter except for if Parvo or mange comes through?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 13:00:38 GMT -6
If those coyotes are killed at the proper time has been my point all along Never. To think killing coyotes on a sheep producer in Oct,Nov or Dec gives him the best bang for the buck is not really being realistic. Gives the trapper the beat bang for their buck. I had far less winter killed ewes and replacement lambs than I did summer range pbs for sure.
Hard winters mean lots more carrion for coyotes to feed on, my points are from a production stand point basis. You can kill coyotes in the fall till the cows come home by spring lambing their is going to be a den close by more often than not. Given one has a stable coyote population heck even with years of 60 percentage mange I still took dens out of the same areas year after year. The cycle of coyotes good coyote habitat fills in that is a given.
Vocal critters and for good reason. I had plenty of areas called and trapped and snared in the winter by guys made little difference into the relation or numbers of dens within 2 miles of my sheepmen come April.
So a dead coyote is just that but one needs to think larger scale for population reduction and timely control for the benefit of the goal being achieved is all.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 20, 2015 15:26:21 GMT -6
but we aren't talking sheep TC- we are talking simple math- the less coyotes to eat stuff, the less coyotes to eat stuff.
I agree on the point never brings up- the first year or two, more often than not unless a true "spot" I find that following years produce less sign, and less coyotes.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 17:28:20 GMT -6
First off I "think" Joe from Lubbock spent close to 4 decades as a govt trapper down that way.
Doesn't matter if we are talking sheep,cattle, deer fawns, antelope fawns or what ever. The point being "timely" control work is essential to maximizing the goal. To say dead coyotes helps with fawn or antelope recruitment is a misnomer.
If your trapping and killing coyotes in October and November or December those coyotes have already ate the bulk of the fawn crop already, that they could find,kill and feed pups with. That cycle has ended for a large part come October, so thendeer hunter likes to see lots of bucks let's say, one trapping in the fall is not going to maximize the year class of those buck deer as coyotes could careless if those fawns are male or female they need to feed pups. So if depredation is truly an issue in that area with the local deer heard he will find over a period of years his buck numbers drop off because by the time you or I roll in come fall those fawns are now broken down coyote scat.
We know this. As all the trapping,calling, snaring and aerial hunting done in the fall while it produces dead coyotes, does leave the choice denning areas in the spring vacant for new coyotes to move in and call home. Thus leading to the key time frame for depredation to occur when those fawns are young and less able to fend off such attacks. Fawn predation is at the peak the first month they are born, the coyotes know this and so does the research. So if we want high fawn recruitment for more of each year class to make it to hunting season then we NEED timely control work, which happens to coincide with the spring May/June time frame of lambs and also in March when cattle are calving meaning March/June is a key period of time to remove denning coyotes from a given area for the betterment of livestock and wildlife. Not Prime fur season.
Again objectives and goals and the best easy to achieve such have to be figured into the work being done.
Unless one is covering a large area, then your coyote suppression is short lived and those areas will be filled in by coyotes at the times that are key to keeping depredation low, regardless of what we are trying to protect as a resource.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 17:48:17 GMT -6
Using the less sign less coyotes thought by fall is well "loose" at best what other things could change? Land topography,prey base, disease, other pressure applied etc. Also your talking on the farms you or I are trapping on in a micro location, is there more food available down the road?
The window of time October to next October much can change. Also what areas are key areas? Meaning does the area your trapping in Octoger does it hold much value for denning coyotrs come spring time? I had historic areas where ai could remove denning coyotes from each and very spring year after year and has been such for many years. Now all,other factors playing into it as mentioned above could correlate from 2-3 denning areas dropping off to 1-2 active denning locations, but ai could assure you fall fur trapping is not the key impact to such.
I had areas I could go into the fall that would produce 20-30 coyotes each and every year. These areas where not areas worked in th spring easy to see but the volume of coyotes caught,called or snared. Let those areas even sit one year and they will fill right back in as good coyote habitat mandates that coyotes fill those voids left.
Many of those dens even though brand new coyotes uncanny how close they would choose the pup rearing spot to all those before them, as long as things remained relatively stable year to year.
Out west in the old days many sheep men built "stone johnnies" they are a great tool in the spring for locating coyote dens not used for such but the information gathered by their placement meaning water holes much of the time give you and insight as to where to look for coyote denning preferences and other factors. I can't count how many coyotes I have called from such formations or set a trap by them as well. Not near as many left due to weather and age.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 17:54:44 GMT -6
Never not many deer killed by coyotes in a normal fall. The impacts of depredation in the fall versus spring far different would you agree?
Heavy bad winters mean more winter killed deer, resulting in more carrion that coyotes are more than happy to feed on, less effort to feed than to kill agree?
Sure some deer become coyote snacks in the winter, yet the bigger impact over all still remains in the spring. Winter kill and winter depredation combined creates a smaller breeding population but winter depredation by itself is not the same factor overall as is winter kill can have.
You have lengthy hunting seasons knocking down deer numbers, you have diseases,you have winter kill and winter depredation which one of those factors has the least impact on fully grown deer in a given winter?
Now it is spring what doe's are left are having twins or triplets how many of those do we want the deer hunter to see come August trail cam time? What is the objective and goal for the period of time he/she is afield?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 18:51:57 GMT -6
Never not many deer killed by coyotes in a normal fall. The impacts of depredation in the fall versus spring far different would you agree? Heavy bad winters mean more winter killed deer, resulting in more carrion that coyotes are more than happy to feed on, less effort to feed than to kill agree? Sure some deer become coyote snacks in the winter, yet the bigger impact over all still remains in the spring. Winter kill and winter depredation combined creates a smaller breeding population but winter depredation by itself is not the same factor overall as is winter kill can have. You have lengthy hunting seasons knocking down deer numbers, you have diseases,you have winter kill and winter depredation which one of those factors has the least impact on fully grown deer in a given winter? Now it is spring what doe's are left are having twins or triplets how many of those do we want the deer hunter to see come August trail cam time? What is the objective and goal for the period of time he/she is afield? 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. In my area, winter kill. TC, I've got property owners right now seeing coyote chase deer across fields and food plots. 4a. The property owner wants as many as possible. 4b. Same as 4a. TC, do you agree that a dead coyote is no longer an eating coyote and a dead deer is no longer eating beans? If you agree, you are in harmony with my deer hunting property owners and the crop farmers in my local. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 19:00:26 GMT -6
First off I "think" Joe from Lubbock spent close to 4 decades as a govt trapper down that way. OK. I gave this Joe the benefit of doubt that he wasn't being a dickhead because lots of times folks write stuff that can just plain come across as odd. Me being the "last of the nice guys" thought his two posts were odd. Now if Joe was being a dickhead and trying to besmirch my character or ridicule me well then he'll have a problem even if he sits on the right hand of God Almighty. |
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 20, 2015 19:37:18 GMT -6
I am sure they do pups are 3/4 grown getting taught to hunt we are almost to September. Wonder what the coyotes success rates are in full foliage and no snow?
if that is the objective and goal great, but IMO is short sided as far as max numbers of deer go.
Sure a dead coyote can't eat but what is the point? A dead deer either, yet we could say a dead fawn doesn't eat as many soybeans as an adult either.
beans are better off served from EHD and deer as it does far more than coyote depredation come this time of year.
Again each goes hand in hand. Agree?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2015 20:29:12 GMT -6
I am sure they do pups are 3/4 grown getting taught to hunt we are almost to September. Wonder what the coyotes success rates are in full foliage and no snow?
if that is the objective and goal great, but IMO is short sided as far as max numbers of deer go.I have no idea what their success rate would be . Maybe it's just an exercise in part of the "hunt training" going on I don't know nor do the people observing this. It is a fact that one of my property owners had complaints a few years ago for the adjacent subdivision before I started trapping the property of hearing "bleating and blaating" and coyote howling in the same spot at this time of year. In more then a couple instances, the property owner investigated where the other folks pointed out to him to look and he found freshly killed mostly eaten remains of deer. The subdivision folks didn't like waking up at 3 in the morning to those sounds. Enter Never!  Sure a dead coyote can't eat but what is the point?The point is that if the coyote was to remain alive it would continue to kill something in order to eat. If it's dead regardless of time of year, it's no longer able to kill anything to eat Same with the deer/beans scenario. If the deer is allowed to live it'll continue to eat beans, it can't if it's dead! To me AND my property owners it's just a simple reduction of numbers, numbers that would still be available to kill or eat beans if they stayed alive regardless of when they were killed. If there is one problem in our discussion is that your goals are not the same as my property owner's because you haven't anything invested but they do. This is where your minor and major are it seems the opposite of the property owners and farmers. Time of year is meaningless to these folks in regard to whether a coyote is killed in July, November, or April it all has to do with the mindset that every coyote made dead is one less coyote able to kill.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 21, 2015 4:46:19 GMT -6
If your landowners have the funding to pay for such during fall fur trapping time frames again great. Sub division paying you to keep the howling to a minimum? Great gig But very limited in scope LOL.
If your removal of random coyotes keeps them happy, hey what can I say? More power to you and them.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 21, 2015 4:55:12 GMT -6
Tman that beaver job was a decent pay day? how much insurance does the nuke plants require you to carry? I Know some places have like a 2 million minimum for doing any type of work for them, back in the lawn care days we just added that to the bill spread out over the entire contract.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 21, 2015 7:08:56 GMT -6
I understand what you are saying TC about denning coyotes and predation, sheep etc
and I also understand that when coyotes are taken in the fall, others move in.
but that really doesn't matter in the scenario never is talking about- whether it meets your criteria or not-
and it doesn't really matter is there are more deer or not, what matters is ARE THE HUNTERS SEEING MORE DEER?
now think about that- their goal is to see and hunt more deer. and they see, as I do, that the number of coyotes working an area directly relates to that goal. the less coyotes around, the more deer around.
so lets take that micro situation- lets say you have 3-4 pair working the area plus yoy and loners- disrupting the pair by taking one- creates the very real possibility that there will be a litter or two less raised in that area...and for sure eliminating any YOY or loners shows the benefit of having 1 less coyote there taking a fawn, or harassing deer.
a small property isn't worried about the macro situation, he is only concerned with the end result- more pheasants, more deer.
If there is one problem in our discussion is that your goals are not the same as my property owner's because you haven't anything invested but they do. This is where your minor and major are it seems the opposite of the property owners and farmers. Time of year is meaningless to these folks in regard to whether a coyote is killed in July, November, or April it all has to do with the mindset that every coyote made dead is one less coyote able to kill.
exactly.
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as far as Joe- his comment was a smart ass remark, and as such he was called out on it. I don't care what his job occupation is or was-
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I've been there 3 times over the years, and also had city and other commercial jobs- never asked for insurance and if I needed more than my personal liability insurance I'd tell them to take a hike. as far as decent payday....yes and no- the time and travel required and the general pain in the butt of access makes it a wash.
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just got a adc call concerning a skunk in town. I told him $75 set up, $75 skunk-
why the set up? cage traps, squirrels, cats, small dogs, early check times, etc
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Post by blackhammer on Aug 21, 2015 8:22:04 GMT -6
I'm not so sure unless you have a real high population if coyotes keep numbers of deer of property imo. Frankly if the guy pays me money to thin down coyotes and it makes him feel good taking his money I have no problem with. Better yet if it opens more gates for trapping permission. I do think keeping coyotes thinned out will help red fox to some degree, more than deer. In both cases the predation you see would be in fawns and red fox pups for the most part. With fox though the coyote is competing for the same food and habitat.
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Post by wileycoyote300 on Aug 21, 2015 8:44:29 GMT -6
First off I "think" Joe from Lubbock spent close to 4 decades as a govt trapper down that way.
I did indeed.Didn`t intend to offend anyone,just my observation. Looks like a guy needs to do a dvd and magazine article to get some respect around here from these thin skinned flash in the pan types. Glen S. told me it had been awhile since you left S.D.,Hows life outside the adc program? I sure enjoy my retirement.You get time your welcome down this way.
Joe
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Post by trappnman on Aug 21, 2015 8:48:53 GMT -6
see now joe- you continue to want to make this adversarial- and thats not going to happen.
if that makes me thin skinned to ask for manners from the posters, so be it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2015 8:52:36 GMT -6
First off I "think" Joe from Lubbock spent close to 4 decades as a govt trapper down that way.
I did indeed.Didn`t intend to offend anyone,just my observation.Looks like a guy needs to do a dvd and magazine article to get some respect around here from these thin skinned flash in the pan types.  Glen S. told me it had been awhile since you left S.D.,Hows life outside the adc program? I sure enjoy my retirement.You get time your welcome down this way.
Joe
You're a F-N liar and an A-hole! If you're looking for respect from me now A-hole you're behind the turd! Why would you want to come to a forum of "thin skinned flash in the pan types" unless after 40 years you're dumber then a stump! |
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 21, 2015 16:18:20 GMT -6
You would have to really thin down the coyotes to see a REAL bump in red fox numbers, generally mange does a much better job at that than control work done in the fall and winter again not he,ping the fox or any other speices to any real extent.
Tman NO Way the hunters are seeing "more deer" the timing is ALL WRONG, what they want or you are trying to provide is too SEE more of the deer that are left after the bulk of the depredation has already occurred.
Your inference to 3-4 pairs and pups chasing deer, now he has a problem no he missed the true problem all ready, meaning kill those coyotes in May and June and for the most part he isn't watching those coyots chasing what is left. many areas are seeing less for deer numbers in many states, the storm hit EHD, predation and very Liberial deer seasons have all combined for far lower numbers in many areas.
No offense to you or never, but there is a big difference of fire prevention and putting out a blaze.................
I really have a hard time unless some are clueless, as to how charging someone at a less than ideal time for control work opens doors? if the deer hunter keeps seeing a dwindling deer population and less fawns come August/Sept how is that satisfying their needs?
unless they are short sided and just want to see what deer are left not getting chased by coyotes at a time the deer have the upper hand , still won't help the population continue to offer maximum year class of deer ................
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Glen S. told me it had been awhile since you left S.D.,Hows life outside the adc program? I sure enjoy my retirement.You get time your welcome down this way.