ADC COYOTE PRICE

[RdFx]

Interesting what the coyote does and doesnt do in this discourse. Much more interesting than listening to the local news or reading the newspaper. One has to take in to concern how the differant areas affect the coyote in differant ways. Yet overall the coyote is being a coyote and the means of taking him are basically the same but differant with the individual trapper or shooter.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2015 6:24:08 GMT -6 RdFx said:

Interesting what the coyote does and doesnt do in this discourse. Much more interesting than listening to the local news or reading the newspaper. One has to take in to concern how the differant areas affect the coyote in differant ways. Yet overall the coyote is being a coyote and the means of taking him are basically the same but differant with the individual trapper or shooter.

You're very right!  

I think two more facets that require consideration within this thread is the difference in coyote populations AND the difference in prey species.

[9wire]

Aug 30, 2015 6:21:38 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Funny 9 wire the same guy that tried to tell,people his 3 weeks fall trapping In ND was keeping the areas pretty well void of coyotes for an entire year, is the samw guy telling me many fawns are born in November and Decemeber down your way LOL.

I've seen fawns in November and early December that still had spots but they were fading out quickly... The fawning season is right now down here, no doubt about it... In Nov and Dec (and Jan) most coyotes are feeding on the thousands and thousands of gut piles and carcasses left behind by the deer and hog hunters..

[trappnman]

TC- you can bow out if you wish- but you are going to see the only point that never and I were trying to make.

that removing coyotes in the fall and winter reduces predation on WILDLIFE.

YOU keep bringing it back to sheep

and no, I DON"t have denning in same farms every year, which is why there is ups and downs because the denning fill in isn't immediate and the reason was explained- virtually unlimited denning areas (not unlimited coyotes, there is a difference) and there is no IMMEDIATE reason to move.

Why is that so hard to understand?

so I'll shoot it right back at you- if you feel coyotes being killed fall and winter have zero effect on the survival of wildlife, then you do.

[TRay]

While there is no question that dead coyotes don't kill, I don't think it helps wildlife as much as most people think at least in the west. Problem is the in the best quality habitat as coyotes are removed they will fill in from the "lesser" areas back into the best stuff. Generally this quality habitat is also where most wildlife is going to be found throughout the year causing problems for wildlife. Now that would mostly be deer we are talking, studies have shown that removel of coyotes can have a negative impact on small game in some areas, if the coyote density is lowered enough it can lead to a increase in fox, coon, skunk, house cat, ground squirrel populations which in turn leads to more nest depridation on birds and small mammals.
If dealing with unlimited time and budget than yes killing fall coyotes can be beneficial as long as one keeps at it thru the spring, budget wise most landowners would be better paying 2 or 3 times more to kill coyotes in the late winter/ early spring time.

[trappnman]

the thing is, is at least here, if one removes the coyotes, one is also removing the incidentals as well

the one concept of "fill in" depends, I would guess, on the habitat.

if seems to be taken as a given, and while its true in some areas, its not true in others- and that is that there is a waiting list for the "prime" real estate.

and I 100% feel that is true...if, and a big IF- there is a reason to move.

but if there is not- then I do not believe animals move, or migrate on a whim, or by nature- unless there IS a reason. Over population, lack of habitat for denning, bad weather a'coming, lay ups, food, etc

[Deleted]

Aug 17, 2015 15:31:28 GMT -6 blackhammer said:

Got a deer hunter from the Twin Cities who will pay to have coyote trapped,but no trapping Oct or Nov. His land is about 25 miles away. Don't know much else. Before I talk to him I want to have a price. It aint going to be cheap. Ideas?

Blackhammer, have you and the property owner negotiated a deal and game plan?

[trappnman]

in case there is any misunderstanding- I DO believe that you get your most bang for your buck during the denning season

I just can't get onboard with there being zero benefit in removing fall/winter coyotes on wildlife populations.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2015 7:17:05 GMT -6 trappnman said:

in case there is any misunderstanding- I DO believe that you get your most bang for your buck during the denning season

I just can't get onboard with there being zero benefit in removing fall/winter coyotes on wildlife populations.

Me either especially when I can't trap coyote out of season and that's denning time! 

I will also say this, I think it's illogical to believe that when a coyote is killed, that the quantity of prey it would have consumed during his life span had it remained alive, makes no difference in the prey population!!  As with the bean farmer, when he kills a deer that would eat say 200lbs of beans during the crop season, he kills that deer after it's consumed 20lbs, that farmer will realize a net gain of 180lbs of beans that would have been eaten by the deer if he hadn't killed it!  

As an example because I don't like the way my last sentence reads- If a coyote in it's average normal life span kills 20 deer but when it's a year old and is killed has only killed 1 deer, that leaves 19 deer that will not be killed by THAT particular coyote that would have been.  If a particular coyote eats 1000lbs of prey during an average life span but is killed after only eating 200lbs of prey, there is the equivalent of 800lbs of prey that will not be killed by THAT particular coyote!  It makes absolutely no difference if another coyote eats the 800lbs because it was going to eat 1000lbs anyway!

It makes absolutely no difference how many coyotes backfill or den!  I think one mistake I'm seeing in this thread is folks are thinking way to large of an area, I'm talking about 40-200 arces.  All coyotes eat and one less coyote mouth that eats is equaited in that amount of prey that is still alive.  Sure the prey that the dead coyote would have consumed may be eaten by another but it makes no difference, the live coyote is going to eat so much anyway(life span amount) regardless.  To believe differently you'd have to believe that the live coyote is going to eat it's life span amount PLUS the rest of the life span amount of prey of the dead coyote and that is completely illogical.
 
I think I've plowed this ground before but it is what it is!

[blackhammer]

Aug 31, 2015 5:51:04 GMT -6 @never said:

Aug 17, 2015 15:31:28 GMT -6 blackhammer said:

Got a deer hunter from the Twin Cities who will pay to have coyote trapped,but no trapping Oct or Nov. His land is about 25 miles away. Don't know much else. Before I talk to him I want to have a price. It aint going to be cheap. Ideas?

Blackhammer, have you and the property owner negotiated a deal and game plan?

Gave the job to someone else. Easier ways to make money. I would be regulated to january snaring and not enough money plus I think fur wise you would be looking at ten dollsr animals. Maybe I'm wrong but the coyote market for commercial coyotes I think is going to be tough.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2015 11:55:56 GMT -6 blackhammer said:

Aug 31, 2015 5:51:04 GMT -6 @never said:

Blackhammer, have you and the property owner negotiated a deal and game plan?

Gave the job to someone else. Easier ways to make money. I would be regulated to january snaring and not enough money plus I think fur wise you would be looking at ten dollsr animals. Maybe I'm wrong but the coyote market for commercial coyotes I think is going to be tough.

Thanks for the update Blackhammer!  Nothing about the fur market will suprise me this year except if it went UP.

[trappincoyotes39]

Never you can't figure things that way trapping on a micro hunk of land and expecting macro results from such activity in the fall. Like saying I trap an otter and that is one less fish eater in the pond, the others will make up for the one or two or three I kill.

I could remove one den of coyotes but if I don't remove the others close by nature is going to dictait if the food source is viable and easier to,obtain due to concentrations and shear numbers available they are going to move in on the food source at some point. The key to good predator control is to get them when the food source your protecting needs it the most, not when fur is prime the two ever hardly correlate for maximum numbers of the source one is protecting from coyote depredation unless circumstances change.

Bottom line if one wants max deer numbers then the spring is the time to control the coyotes, you could say every coyote you kill means one less feeding, on the other foot I can state every fawn that is given the chance to see the breeding season is one more to produce 2-3 more fawns. hard to do if the bulk of the fawns are depredated upon by August compaired to those left come sept. I understand no season for you in the Spring but your game dept and others are complaing about too many coyotes and many Midwestern states giving out fewer and fewer deer tags because of a combination of disease and spring predation on fawns. Again a food source is heavily utilized when the Pickens are the easiest even though can take place at other times of the year.

Tman so why aren't these areas being utilized each spring? other coyotes taking over the vacated area in their territory? Your coyote numbers from what I saw because of higher prey base much like here in Mo densities much higher, so why wouldn't there be the small shift to Move over if things stay the same? I know here in Missouri Inhave seen the same as SD my neighbor has goats about 75-80 head and a guard dog because he has had problems in the past, we have a great denning area just to the north of my place, I Took out a family last fall, guess what? There is a new one there this year and has been there raising pups Imhave them on my trail cam. I also have 2 other family groups within 1 mile of my house one to the south across the road and another to the west and the area to the north. As the ground stays the same and the food source and habitat being key for denning I have little doubts the ones I take out in the fall trapping will ever have an impact by itself on the dennings locations of the next pair to move in the following spring. Just like you here in MO the food source for them is crazy high, plenty of rabbits,mice,voles,shrews,moles,deer etc to feed on. Rarely ever a real drought here and little true pressure ever applied to the overall population of coyotes.

2013-14 based off 43 licensed buyers in Missouri the coyote harvest was 7,631 we know it was higher because not all coyote fur went though one of the 43 licensed buyers. Yet this year deer seasons will be shortened by a few days, tag allotment numbers are down again and hunters report seeing less deer even with those 7,631 coyotes harvested by fur trappers? yes a mix of EHD and predation has meant a down turn of decent size in the overall deer population in this state. Comes back to helping those fawns see fall and that is done by timely control done durring the crucial time. Not fur trapping.

[RShaw]

I have had ranchers refuse permission to call or trap coyotes on their ranch because the coyotes that lived there posed no problem. Those ranchers feared that the coyotes who would move-in might not be so peaceable.

[trappnman]

so if you have 2 otter, and you kill one, the other eats 2xs as much?

you have 5 coyotes, and you kill 3- the food intake of the others increases so there is no difference in predation?

that makes zero sense, by any standard.

lets look at some of your assumptions-

1- every area with a local wildlife population, has denning coyotes right in the middle
2- everyone of those dens, is in the best area compared to al other dens
3- as soon as those coyotes are killed others move in

now, that might or might not be true on your area- I don't know, never having lived in your areas.

but I assure you, the above is not true here.

meaning that pretty much there is unlimited denning areas- and I mean that literally.
and unlimited food

and what that means, is denning area A is the same as denning area B, and so on-

so while migration occurs, it IS NOT a priority- meaning needing to move for better food, habitat, etc

and the proof is in the local population year to year. Never stated this, and I think you missed it- and I concur- unless at a true spot- meaning a large attraction used by multiple groups- the population on a farm is NEVER the same after 1-2 years of trapping the area. If it was a fill in denning area- the population would be stable year after year from day 1(with the odd year thrown in) and it is not- unless the above exception, killing coyotes in micro areas DOES reduce the populations.

[TRay]

I have been involved in a fawn survival study for the past several years in my area, in the study area we have a large wildlife refuge (35 sq miles) that does not allow trapping or coyote hunting. Fawn survival around the refuge where several guys trap and inside the refuge has shown no difference in survival rates on the fawns. Now I know this is only one area and habitat is different than most other guys here.

In contrast several years ago a fawn survival study was being conducted in a large area (250 sq miles) that has in intense coyote control done year round and in 2 years they never lost a fawn to predation. In this area the coon and skunk population has exploded which has really hurt the pheasant nesting success. In some of my areas where we work coyotes year round I have lost permissions on large grain farmers who have seen the increase in depridation by deer, geese, and coons that will come with extremely high pressure on the coyote population.

Some areas that I have trapped in Western states where intense coyote control was in place had some of the highest densitys of fox and bobcats anywhere. Remove the top predator and something will take his place.

As for "fill in" I don't have enough experience in the East to say it does or doesn't happen, I know Slim said once that even with a extremely high density of coyotes where he was in Georgia once you removed the locals fill in was really slow. In my area it's fairly quickly, what can happen here is if we start our aerial maintance program in January we can fly the same country weekly and kill the same numbers in the same areas with very little drop off in numbers till April. If we start in mid March we can kill less coyotes overall but will again see little fill in once April starts which is no surprise as this is when territories have mostly been established. No question that killing coyotes in January isn't lowering population somewhere, just not here. Over the years of observing the aircraft hunt I have found numerous spots that always hold coyotes in my country, some are obvious and some not but when I observe coyotes killed in the same spots year round every time they hunt year after year a trapped takes notice. Usually once the local coyotes are removed within a week new ones will replace them, summertime it will take a little longer but very seldom are these areas vacant regardless of how many are removed in the surrounding areas. Many times these locations are located in proximity to the best habitat in the area which is also where deer, pheasants or other game is also located.
This past winter while working a complaint I had the airplane hunting in 5" of fresh snow that had fallen in the night, I cut tracks leaving the calving pen and got the plane on them we followed the tracks over 13 miles before we caught up to them, again probably not typical movement but not uncommon in this area.

[TRay]

I have no problems with telling producers that removing fall coyotes will positively impact game species cause I'm sure at some level it does. Just looking at bang for the buck I don't think it's worth paying for. In areas with seasons than a guy had no choice but to kill as many as possible in the fall/winter to do any good.

[Deleted]

All of your replies on this thread have been extremely interesting and well worded/described!  Glad to have you participating on this board TRay.

[trappnman]

I echo that Tray.

my collaring here, was in conjunction with a collared doe and fawn program. 80+ does were collared (to my best recollection) and I don't know how many fawns were collared. We had 12 coyotes collared at most times over a 3 year period- a total of 30 some coyotes Coyotes were collared in the area of the study, and not one instance was shown of coyotes preying on the deer.

interesting, isn't it?

[trappnman]

fill in does occur here of course- but I'd have to say my observations mirror what slim said.

[blackhammer]

Sept 1, 2015 18:09:18 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I echo that Tray.

my collaring here, was in conjunction with a collared doe and fawn program. 80+ does were collared (to my best recollection) and I don't know how many fawns were collared. We had 12 coyotes collared at most times over a 3 year period- a total of 30 some coyotes Coyotes were collared in the area of the study, and not one instance was shown of coyotes preying on the deer.

interesting, isn't it?

Just one study so I don't think the sample size is large enough. Things can vary from location to even years How coyotes behave could change from five years ago to five years from now. Ican't imasge the four,five fawns I walk into mushroom hunting each spring would be ignored by a coyote. I would think a coyote would encouter during the week or so fawns would be most vulnerble more fawns than I. On a side note I recall a few years ago seeing a red fox dragging a dead fawn across the road pretty sure it was a roadkill but tasty for a canine.