An innate behavior

[bogio]

Scrounged up a couple of videos that Zagman shared with us previously that are good examples of innate behavior in action.

 What caused the coyotes to act in the way that they did?  Was it something in the set construction that turned them off? Was it something about the location? I'd like to know what happened after the sets were reworked.

We discuss the importance of a set they are comfortable with. What didn't they like here? The set with the dropping looks low all around it with the snow cover. Did they not like that or was it something else?

Does this location not offer what they are looking for in a stall out? Is it more of a pass through area where they are less receptive?

What about this setup compelled the coyotes to circle, back off ,leave a dropping, perform kickbacks, and leave the area without being caught?


EDITED: as per request by Zagman, the videos of an open field with coyote tracks in snow avoiding and circling a set that had caught a coyote

[jdpaint]

They circled on the edge of an old catch ring and had satisfied there curiosity of the bait/ lure in the drifted in hole at a previous time.The new turd /kick was not for the old turd but for the trapper himself.Only my thoughts.

[Zagman]

Woulda been nice if you'd showed the coyote in the new set the next day! LOL Guess that wasn't PM'd to you?

Or the context of the location, the text that came with those videos in the original post??....or at least changed the wording of the questions so it wasn't so clear who PM'd the videos and questions to you! LOL

Or, maybe let me post my own stuff? There's an idea!

But, since you called me out.........

I trapped that farm and location far longer that season than I ever did in years past due to NO winter in Jan/Feb (relative term)...it's at the confluence of two rivers systems....and there's a calf dump behind me.....I caught more coyotes at the location and farm that year than any total I've ever had at ANY farm in all my years, so I'm cool with that location chosen. I'm sure it's not THE SPOT....I just call it a great location.

So, what is the innate behavior you are pointing out? It seems that you guys find it hilarious that I'm the only guy in the country with coyotes that don't commit suicide at first whiff! So, it cannot be the avoidance or circling the first video showed. So what is the innate behavior you are pointing out? Or, were you being sarcastic with the title of the post. I am confused, but hey, you guys already know that!

BTW, any of you in the know actually trap in snow? I don't seem to see many catch pics with coyotes in traps in snow from you guys in the know!



MZ

[trappnman]

do you believe coyotes on snow, have different innate behaviors than on bare ground?

[brendemihl77]

I've had similar experiences with my coyote trapping in the past. I've been trapping coyotes by the find sign make sets. Get permission on farm, find sign, set up all ditch/culvert/tractor lane crossings, salient features etc. and then hope. Make multiple sets because of the huge amounts of trash. I'm in south central Wis. there is big populations of coon, skunks, possum, feral cats, and some fox. A good size farm maybe 4-5 hundred acres with the norm being 140 acres. I've had coyotes hit a property and run the "gauntlet" and go through unscathed. I've played the wind and didn't skimp on bait and lure. I'm really trying to learn something from all the coyRus posts. What home range are the coyotes here in southern Wis adhereing to? According to Wis DNR approx. 5-10 square miles. So then I need to find highly attractive spots that are dictated by their innate behavior and have overlapping home ranges. Then get try to get permission and find stall out location then hammer them? I realize I don't post much and now I've opened myself up to correction/critisism. I wish I had coyotes that committed suicide at first whiff so Zagman you're not the only one in the country with that problem.

[trappincoyotes39]

The are a few things snow will do/cause over early fall dirt trapping , one is in many areas by the time the snow flies in many areas you just have less coyotes if they get any pressure at all. Next the deer hunting and other big game hunting in many states can and will effect their movements as well. When snows come location can and will change depending on the depths of the snow. The areas they seek out for food and cover change as well.

Lastly snow trapping is just plain more work. I have done my share of snow trapping I enjoy it as a challange and did so to gain more insite on the critters, but I will be honest give me liberial snare laws and I just soon run 75-100 snares versus 40-50 traps when the snow is constant. The amount of work is night and day, but some have no other choice either keep on trapping or call it good for the year.

[bogio]

No sarcasm, honest questions.

The circling and kickbacks are the behavior I am talking about. In listening to and reading what others post, this is a behavior that is exhibited by coyotes everywhere they exist and are pursued. The snow on the ground in the videos shows us exactly how the coyote reacted, I want to know WHY.

We have been focusing on 2 main ideas for sometime, that location and/or set construction have a major influence on the coyote's state of mind and susceptibility to being caught. I simply am wanting input into whether or not that is what is at play here. Or is it as simplistic as he circled something he knew was there and left you a turd for good measure as jd suggests?

The circling to me indicates that this animal had a problem with something that he was seeing there. Was that the way the set it self looked or where it was located? Or neither? Was it where it was placed/encountered or did that have no bearing on his actions?

When my dog finds something of enough interest to lead to a kickback, he is all over it. His nose is buried into it, he'll scratch the ground to open it up so he can get a better whiff. He'll move back and forth acrossed it smelling from different angles, maybe pissing on it 2 or 3 times. His body language while performing the kickback is pure pleasure and dominance. He is happy with what he has found and done with it. There is no avoidance. He avoids sets but that is a learned behavior due to being caught and catch poled multiple times. Coyotes avoid sets and do kickbacks as a part of their makeup. It is wired into them, an innate behavior common to all of them.

My trapping, due to my job constraints, starts in mid-November. I have traps in the ground from then until the last day of January when our season closes. So yes, I trap in the snow, the mud and the pixie dust. I have no choice.





If that's not enough proof, I've got a bunch more.

[jsevering]

The circling to me indicates that this animal had a problem with something that he was seeing there. Was that the way the set it self looked or where it was located? Or neither? Was it where it was placed/encountered or did that have no bearing on his actions?
.......................................

i'll go with nether.... have had the same thing happen when a hot set gets an even blanket or enough snow, to nullify any visual effect... wouldn't call it so much an innate behavior as an associate type behavior at least in part.. being that late in the season and the number of animals mark already caught there, the coyote or coyotes were still stalling out for the sets and he caught it or another in a new set the next day... so don't think where the set was location wise was a factor ... bob wendt had a theory on stress and excess anal secretions, he shared a few times, have talked to others that thought possible active adrenaline gland secretions in the urine may relay the stress associated within the hot spot... cant say for sure like most things, just theory, but some interesting things to think on some anyhow when you see it happen with a fresh snow... memory in part or olfactory clues would be my guess with virgin snow cover at least... jim

[trappnman]

do you think this same thing happens, with the same frequency, on bare ground?

or on fresh sets?

do you think that where a coyotes mindset is, at a specific location, has a direct bearing on how he works a set?

[1080]

Sept 15, 2013 5:39:37 GMT -6 Zagman said:

Or the context of the location, the text that came with those videos in the original post??....or at least changed the wording of the questions so it wasn't so clear who PM'd the videos and questions to you! LOL

But, since you called me out.........

I trapped that farm and location far longer that season than I ever did in years past due to NO winter in Jan/Feb (relative term)...it's at the confluence of two rivers systems....and there's a calf dump behind me.....I caught more coyotes at the location and farm that year than any total I've ever had at ANY farm in all my years, so I'm cool with that location chosen. I'm sure it's not THE SPOT....I just call it a great location.

So, what is the innate behavior you are pointing out? It seems that you guys find it hilarious that I'm the only guy in the country with coyotes that don't commit suicide at first whiff! So, it cannot be the avoidance or circling the first video showed. So what is the innate behavior you are pointing out? Or, were you being sarcastic with the title of the post. I am confused, but hey, you guys already know that!

BTW, any of you in the know actually trap in snow? I don't seem to see many catch pics with coyotes in traps in snow from you guys in the know!

MZ

I guess


Since I am assumed the culprit...

I`ll dissect this line by line like I do with Tman(He likes that)


1st things 1st....I recieved these SAME questions(via PM) he posted on the forum,worded a little differently,but basically the same.I did however tell him he would have to wait for his answer.So here we are.A NEW thread,and a very good one at that!
Your Vids and HIS questions...Imagine that
I have read enough of Bogios posts to Know he`s a pretty sharp trapper,and asks intelligent questions.I enjoy reading his responses and questions.Go Bogio !!

Personally,I don`t see him calling you out whatsoever.These 2 videos show,because of snow,what many on here I suspect have questions about.However I have no questions with regards to the behavior.

When you 1st posted these I had other questions for you but refrained.There was plenty of tension on the thread these were on and I chose not to engage.

My Questions would have been:

Why a Chevy truck? and a jake

Why broom out tracks?(you have been around long enough to know this is unnecessary)
Why the mention that your traps might be inoperable with an inch or 2 of snow?
Why in the world was the set(trap) and the surroundings LEFT covered with snow?


Now,,,,to your credit,a coyote was caught.Others as well,maybe.You didn`t elaborate.
Your technique and choice of location was not being questioned,at least by Bogio.The behavior demonstrated was what he had questions about,and it just so happens your Vids depict that to a T.(Now you see why the "Hey Bob" videos disappear)

Seems to me Bogio is owed an apology!

My track record is such that I can understand your conclusion!

Bogio is sincere in his questions(it appears to me with what I was asked) and your Vids provided the catalyst for HIS thread..

Nothing More !!!!!

  

[jsevering]

do you think this same thing happens, with the same frequency, on bare ground?

or on fresh sets?

do you think that where a coyotes mindset is, at a specific location, has a direct bearing on how he works a set?
...................................................


think after the first two to three weeks, it happens more often than we think, snow or not....

if the coyotes have been worked... same sets, same lures... same old sign post\flags at each set... why not?

think that video of marks is a good example of how a mind set can work, change some, for a lack of a better phrase at a specific location...coyotes and trappers both... kinda feel that the coyote stalling out, dumping along with both kickbacks was him working the set location, just not the way our mind wanted to see it, think mark adapted well with the mind set presented... guess my answer would be yes, where the coyotes mind set is, not necessarily ours... jim

[spring]

Great post Jim!!!

[braveheart]

I like my wind blown side hills or high spots in the dead of winter.But I am looking forward to some fair weather coyote trapping this year.Nice soft ground!!!

[trappnman]

to clarify- working the set to mean means sticking his nose in the hole- circling the set and not coming in, is avoiding the set.

[jsevering]

I don't know steve... to me it appears the existing sets were the catalyst for the behavior.... innate or associative in part, it still stalled out there and worked the location, with a different mind set, guess its how you look at it .... jim

[trappnman]

and how I look at it is that this behavior exists to the same degree on bare ground

but yes, I agree the existing set, WAS the catalyst for the behavior-

the question then becomes WHY as bogio asked.

or more apt, the reverse- how could that have been prevented, both on snow, and on bare ground- where I believe it occurs just as much as what you see on snow

[jsevering]

that's the million dollar question.... I already said I thought it was association at least in part... to me that would be like asking a two year old to put his hand back on the coal stove after they just got burnt, next two year old through the door might ... think like mark did when you see it happening you have to adapt... if your only going to be there a couple of weeks in the start of the season, take the young,dumb and run, don't worry about it.. if you have a better way im all ears.... jim

[Zagman]

When I talk about my trap line dogs use, grass tufts, "sleeper sets" in the fall, the question from this group was the same....why am I getting avoidance/circling, implying that you guys did not see this.....

I asked how one would know WITHOUT snow??....I have always took what I saw on snow and assumed it happened on fall ground as well, and my downwind grass tufts bore that out for me.

If the group agrees that coyotes are "neophobes".....nervous and jerky about something "new", then how does that apply to ANY trap set and stink that wasn't there yesterday? In other words, if we agree coyotes are neophobic, then why would it seem odd that coyotes would show "avoidance" to our offerings to any degree? What's more NEW than a big old hole in the ground with a myriad of smells coming from it? And it wasn't there yesterday!

How does a coyote show "avoidance" to a set? Standing back.....circling......NOT WORKING THE SET.

In the video, there are two other sets there and a couple different catch circles with no traps.....I found it completely normal that "a" coyote would not just run in and donate to the cause...but rather, it avoiding the "hot" area but still had to tell others (and me) he was there.

I have no idea if I caught the culprit in the video....I just adapted to what I saw and gave the spot a new set. At minimum, the coyote I DID catch the next day didn't work the existing sets either, but rather, worked the blended turd.

To the question....YES, I DO believe what I saw there is innate and was caused by the other sets and catch circles and have contended that from Day One....never wavering from that belief, and thus the basis of my approach with the dogs.

Robust discussions on this forum have disagreed with those thoughts, implying that the "avoidance" (i.e. neophobic) I experienced was my own fault due to set type, location, and my overall presentation.

I just thought I was taking advantage of the innate behavior displayed above............and to some degree, exploiting it.

MZ

[trappnman]

zags-

let me put it to you what I believe, for me, on my line-

The "avoidance" (i.e. neophobic) I experienced was my own fault due to either set type, location, or my overall presentation, and that while i was catching coyotes, I wasn't getting the % i knew was possible.

and the cure for that, IS the set type, location or my overall presentation

there really seems to be 2 distinct views on all these discussiions over the years and that is two polar oppiste views:

#1 I doesn't matter where that coyote is, as long as he is coming back.

#2 Where he is is of the utmost importance.

thats it in a nutshell.

I used to believe in #1

now I'm convinced #2 is correct. That where he is, directly affects his mindset, and that has a direct result on behaviors.

thats one issue

A second issue then comes into play- is there, a set that substaintially reduces neophobic behaviors through the set type, and overall presentation/

I believe this to be correct as well.

[1080]

  



        I`ll bite...

But 1st,,,,I would ask YOU to address my prior 3 questions.Fair enough?

Why broom out your tracks?
Why did you think your traps might be inoperable with the snow?
Why was the NEW set(trap) AND surroundings left covered with snow,and the trap RE-covered with snow?

These are NOT rhetorical in nature AND not for a Ball Bustin as I told you before I would stop,as well as Tman asked I tone it down.Send me A PM if you prefer not to Post it.I`m more interested in this than any behavioral issues being discussed!!!


If I may

Zagman: When I talk about my trap line dogs use, grass tufts, "sleeper sets" in the fall, the question from this group was the same....why am I getting avoidance/circling, implying that you guys did not see this.....

I asked how one would know WITHOUT snow??....I have always took what I saw on snow and assumed it happened on fall ground as well, and my downwind grass tufts bore that out for me.


I personally never questioned why you saw certain behaviors/reactions.As with all trappers,SOME is unavoidable,much is trapper related.This very topic spurred me to be the Best I could be when I started.
Avoidance,in all forms was troubling to say the least.To the second question.

Bare ground,dry dirt,sand,Coal banks(dust),2 track,windblow,..Out west you get to see much if not most of what transpires.You don`t have the same luxury we do.BUT sign exists.When you walk as much as I do,following coyotes,watching,where they stop,why they stopped,where they don`t stop,where they got spooked,where they shiit,where they peed,on what they shiit and peed,how frequently they peed(mindblowing)at times,on&on&on.Times of the year,mud,snow,hot hot,little water.I could go on for hours.The more you know about/understand them,the fewer mistakes you make as a trapper!


zagman:If the group agrees that coyotes are "neophobes".....nervous and jerky about something "new", then how does that apply to ANY trap set and stink that wasn't there yesterday? In other words, if we agree coyotes are neophobic, then why would it seem odd that coyotes would show "avoidance" to our offerings to any degree?

Myself,,,,They can act Neophobic.Neophobes all the time,,,I don`t see that.In the right circumstance,,,you bet!



Detection of an artificial scent station in a familiar environment
may result in avoidance rather than approach and
investigation. Griffith et al. (1981) presented evidence, based
upon tracks in roads, that some coyotes actively avoid scent
stations. In a previous report (Griffith 1976) he estimated
that only 28.8% of the coyotes that came within 9.1 m of
scent stations scored at them. The olfactory and (or) visual
aspects of the dusted scent stations attract some coyotes, but
it also seems likely that wary individuals might avoid the
disturbed ground, at least initially. Coyotes may also be less
attentive to mild novel stimuli inside their home ranges than
outside (Hibler 1977). In our study, wild coyotes more frequently
visited scent stations near the periphery of or outside
their home areas until they became more familiar with the
stations.
We are not implying that coyotes do not thoroughly
explore areas of their home ranges, but as
familiarity with a particular environment increases, habituation
may replace attentiveness and exploration. If inattentive,
a coyote might inadvertently and repeatedly bypass scent
stations in a familiar environment without detecting or responding
to the stimuli. Griffith (1976) reported that 12.1%
of the coyotes in their study passed within 0.45–1.36 m of a
scent station, they did so without scoring, and an additional
35.2% passed within 2.27–5.00 m without scoring.
Previous experience with, or repeated presentation of, a
stimulus can affect behavior during subsequent encounters.
The coyotes in the field aspect of our
study that visited scent stations within their home ranges had
previously visited scent stations on the periphery of or outside
their home areas (Table 4). Having previously investigated
these stimuli and suffered no adverse consequences,
they may have been more likely to approach and investigate
them in a familiar environment. Conversely, it might be
argued that repeated exposure may lead to habituation and
eventual disinterest in investigating a stimulus.
The importance of understanding coyote behavioral responses
to various stimuli lies in the premise that we can
better tailor management and research techniques through a
better understanding of coyote behaviors (Knowlton 1972;
Lehner 1976). We conclude that responses of captive coyotes
to novel objects and scent stations are dependent upon
the coyotes’ familiarity with them, as well as their familiarity
with the area in which they encounter these stimuli. Coyotes
showed greater caution toward, and avoidance of, novel
objects and scent stations encountered in familiar environments
than in unfamiliar environments. The results of our
field study suggest that coyotes are more apt to visit scent
stations encountered along the periphery of or outside their
home ranges than inside.


As GG always said,"Do it right the 1st time"and I will add,You may not get a second chance.I personally can`t imagine NOT taking them in familiar areas.I also know you better do it right the 1st TIME.Livestock producers want results ! Not Excuses....



A set,it`s presentation,AND where it is offered Matters!
Vern said to me one time,,,,"A" coyote can be taken anywhere.MOST, never will.
He was right!!!!!


zagman:In the video, there are two other sets there and a couple different catch circles with no traps.....I found it completely normal that "a" coyote would not just run in and donate to the cause...but rather, it avoiding the "hot" area but still had to tell others (and me) he was there.

I won`t get into why you set there.You had success,good for you!
I will tell you I never would have set that general location and still wouldn`t no matter how many YOU caught,but I have my reasons... 


Tman says he catches most of his coyotes in the "same" set that caught before.
I see much of the same in Indiana WHERE a higher density exist,and no ADC work done.Out West,No.
Do I think they become location shy?,,,You Bet.BUT they avoid the area all together.
You had a visitor,but leary.Had it seen others caught in those traps.Could be.
Those 2 sets were much closer than I ever set together.Had they both connected before and that coyote saw them,some will show neophobic behavior.Others commit suicide.
Always pays to have a fresh set or 2,at the right SPOT...

 

zagman;Robust discussions on this forum have disagreed with those thoughts, implying that the "avoidance" (i.e. neophobic) I experienced was my own fault due to set type, location, and my overall presentation.

I just thought I was taking advantage of the innate behavior displayed above............and to some degree, exploiting it.




With your Dirt hole IE.man made sets,I do think certain mistakes are made,hence your transformation to your sleeper set as a "Go to" or mainstay on your line.I am certain the dogs have taught you plenty and their assistance has been welcome..


You are taking advantage of innate behavior.

They pee/mark,,,,,and if you were to set EVERY place they pee/mark,you wouldn`t have enough traps!About like blind sets FOR ME.
Not that they don`t work,as I do use on complaints,but for your general approach to "Joe Coyote" not what I like..

To often they lift/squat,squirt and GO......and about that fast !!!

The feet don`t shuffle,the approach is often in/out.I just want the visit to be longer,and always lethal.... 


The way I see it,we all do what we see as best for us.Each of us do it different and if it were all the same,nothing to talk about..