An innate behavior

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I've had coyotes come over and watch me make sets a half dozen times or so in my life. Everytime I drove down the road and made another set or two then went back and picked them up.

I've also seen pretty good populations quit the country , or at least move back from the roads, when hunting season opened up.

I understand that you live in a far busier part of the world than I do but I still think that you probably have coyotes that observe your actions and understand that there is danger there.

Trying to put every individual coyote in the same box doesn't work any more than it does humans. Lots of behaviors are predictable across the species but there are individual personalities as well.

It might not even be that he saw you, seeing a sibling caught in a set would certainly cause some of them to be shy of that area.

[trappnman]

without a doubt, there are individual personalities and reactions, but one cannot worry about them, because they are unpredictable and therefore we must use behaviors that are present, or at least common to most.

I have no doubt coyotes are observing my reactions- Slim once asid "what else to they have to do?"

but WHY would my actions setting gopher traps, observed, be any different than in being observed setting a coyote trap?

the real question here is this: are behaviors such as circling, going to occur no matter the location?

that there is nothing one can do, except make subtle sets around not so subtle ones?

thats where the different views come into play- I think that location (and no, not meaning here is a track, set on it) has EVERYTHING to do, in how a set is worked- and that cicling actions to the point of not working the set at all, would appear or disappear, depending on the location and how a set as presented

[Zagman]

Sept 24, 2013 10:47:09 GMT -6 mostinterestingmanintheworld said:

I didn't read every post so if this has been brought up disregard.

I could be as simple as that coyote watched you make that set, or saw you getting out to relure it, spooky because it sees your truck in there everyday.

Some of my favorite sets for coyotes when I used to longline were to make a big flashy set by a cow skull or big dirt hole with skunky lure and then go out 10/20/30 yards and make a simple blended flat set using nothing but a turd maybe, or sometimes a partially buried piece of charred wood, or a few drops of "coyote water" which I learned from Wiley Carroll. Put a skinned coyote hide in a 5 gallon bucket and soak the dog smell out of it, then sprinkle a little bit of that water on a little clump of grass or a bush.

Or...............nothing at all!! That works well out here where there are large bare areas like dry stock dams and such. I small thing that sticks out in a mud flat will cause them to go over to it. Especially if there is a big attraction or even better yet another coyote tangled up causing hyperactive responses.

It gets those circling coyotes.

Yay!

Sounds familiar.........

MZ

[trappnman]

well then- I guess one answer is to put in subtle sets to catch those circling coyotes.

[Zagman]

correct...

Don't confuse the term "circling coyotes" meaning they DON"T GET CAUGHT when they circle. I/we contend they circle the first time they see/smell our offering (neophobes, right???) but then go in and get caught OR get caught in one of the other sets. The video shows one that circled and did not get caught. I think coyotes I catch daily circled or paced a bit before getting caught that night....I'd love to believe the lure makers and their statements that at first whiff they run in with their tongues and dicks out, but experience has shown me otherwise.

And it seems like MOST coyote trappers agree...........

Now, unless this has now turned into "there's only one way to do something"? therefore the rest of us are wrong?

As you often say, if it works for you, you are doing it right.....

It seems that a vast majority of good coyote trappers accept this "innate behavior" and work with it, exploit it, deal with it.....

Its like coon,coon trails, and food sources, .....one day they are going to apples and have a highway beat into the ground...then, like that, POOF they are gone. You set the trails a day late and you are scratching your head. This innate behavior is accepted, and good coon trappers adjust/adapt. They miss some here and there but across their line, they constantly adapt, and set more spots, and the averages work out.

They don't even attempt to change the behavior of the animal.....they adapt their methods and locations....and keep catching coon.

I am not saying that I, we don't want to get better. "Better" to me is more coyotes a day and more than I caught last year. Period. Constant improvement on CATCH NUMBERS and TOTALS.....is my focus.

At the end of the year no one pays me on catch percentages or how "few" traps I set. The fur buyer (and me) only care how many I haul to him.

Doesn't mean I don't care about percentages...I am always happier when I catch more than less! Still, I accept the percentages I hit across the board and feel I will personally do better setting MORE traps......not LESS.

If one extreme is 150 land traps a day and a "low" catch percentage, the other is why not just set two traps total? If you want high percentages, that would achieve the goal.

Frankly, the more traps and locations I show to new coyotes, the more I catch.

In based ball terms, I am swinging for average......I want as many times at the plate as I can get. If I have
one thousand at-bats, I should hit more homers than a designated hitter that only gets up to the plate everyone once in a while.

I read the studies, I have a three-ring binder with all of them printed out. I told 1080, if I need to fall asleep and can't, I just read the studies!

I've enjoyed reading them.....though I have not had an epiphany from them OR found any silver bullet in them that is tempting me to change my ways......

I'm all ears and have followed your journey in an attempt to catch more with less.......and will continue to listen, engage, partake, discuss, argue....I have TONS of video and other photos that would support and/or erode my theories and yours.....but, as in the beginning of this thread, posting them here usually bites me in the butt....maybe not today, but down the road. Further, anything I say or post is poo-pooed because, frankly, you are SO sold on this as to only seeking direction from yourself, studies, or 1080. The rest of us are amateurs at best.

I know what I do, and what I do compare to MOST people. Trying to compare that to what ONE man does or thinks makes little sense to me.....apples and oranges.

Doesn't mean I am not listening.....but I am not going to go out opening day this year and try to set LESS traps.....I am going to bust my hump to set MORE. Everything else being equal, I will have more coyotes than I did last year.

Zagman

[RdFx]

Amen!!!

[trappnman]

Don't confuse the term "circling coyotes" meaning they DON"T GET CAUGHT when they circle. I/we contend they circle the first time they see/smell our offering (neophobes, right???) but then go in and get caught OR get caught in one of the other sets. The video shows one that circled and did not get caught. I think coyotes I catch daily circled or paced a bit before getting caught that night....I'd love to believe the lure makers and their statements that at first whiff they run in with their tongues and dicks out, but experience has shown me otherwise.


and I/we contend, that every coyote exhibiting "they circle the first time" isn't true, that in the right location, this occurs far less than an "average" location. and that the REASON they circle, can be determined, and can be controlled.

And it seems like MOST coyote trappers agree...........

no disrespect to anyone, but what "most" coyote trappers believe, is of little consequence to me. "Most" believe that you can't set over a high backing, or that you need remake tools for remakes, that you dasn't use more than 5 drops of lure (and never use 2 lures), that you need a kneeling cloth to reduce human odors, etc. Indeed, one of the most recommended videos series touts many of those things. "Most" coyote trappers do little beyond "'set a track" or set on field road connections.

Now, unless this has now turned into "there's only one way to do something"? therefore the rest of us are wrong?


there are countless ways to do things- but are all equal? for example, to rake my yard with a rake- I can tweak that rake all I want- longer handle, rubber grips, bent handle, lighter tines, bigger spread....and I can make it the finest rake one could buy beg borrow or steal- and by dint of hard work and hours spent, I could rake my lawn. Or. I could get a leaf blower, and accomplish the same in a fraction of the time, and then if I felt like it- I could do the whole block, in te time I used ot spend raking my own.

As you often say, if it works for you, you are doing it right.....

more apt- if you are happy with what you are doing, keep doing it.......

It seems that a vast majority of good coyote trappers accept this "innate behavior" and work with it, exploit it, deal with it.....

I think the vast majority, doesn't give it one thought from daylight to sundown

Its like coon,coon trails, and food sources, .....one day they are going to apples and have a highway beat into the ground...then, like that, POOF they are gone. You set the trails a day late and you are scratching your head. This innate behavior is accepted, and good coon trappers adjust/adapt. They miss some here and there but across their line, they constantly adapt, and set more spots, and the averages work out.

don't know what to say to this- but comparing the coyotes social structure and innate behaviors to a coons, is like averaging out the life expectency of a tortoise and a cicada


They don't even attempt to change the behavior of the animal.....they adapt their methods and locations....and keep catching coon.

ahhh..the goal isn't to change the behavior of the coyote, the goal is to understand, and work with that behavior, rather than doing things that increase 'negative" behaviors.

I am not saying that I, we don't want to get better. "Better" to me is more coyotes a day and more than I caught last year. Period. Constant improvement on CATCH NUMBERS and TOTALS.....is my focus.

At the end of the year no one pays me on catch percentages or how "few" traps I set. The fur buyer (and me) only care how many I haul to him.

Doesn't mean I don't care about percentages...I am always happier when I catch more than less! Still, I accept the percentages I hit across the board and feel I will personally do better setting MORE traps......not LESS.

If one extreme is 150 land traps a day and a "low" catch percentage, the other is why not just set two traps total? If you want high percentages, that would achieve the goal.

Frankly, the more traps and locations I show to new coyotes, the more I catch.

In based ball terms, I am swinging for average......I want as many times at the plate as I can get. If I have
one thousand at-bats, I should hit more homers than a designated hitter that only gets up to the plate everyone once in a while.

low percentages mean that one is wasting energy, time and money in checking empty traps. I'll bring up the 7% ratio, since you did write about it as a consencous, good as it gets. so day in and day out- on 100 traps you are checking 93 non coyote traps.

there seems to be this continued misunderstanding about me running less traps that last 3 years- don't know if its inadvertent, or a delibrate misunderstanding. so let me clear that up once and for all-

I know I can catch coyotes 1 here, 1 there, 1 over there- I used to always run 100 traps and I'd be about 100 coyotes at end of season.

so- if the goal is to run 100 traps- I could do 2 things- continue setting ADC style, and taking a coyote here, coyote there and check those 93 empty traps every day- or I could learn to reduce those numbers of empty traps.

you once called me to ask how could I change my entire thought process, on the success of 1080 in Indiana. I ask you- how could one not?

be like me leaning on my rake, watching the neighbor use a blower on his lawn.

I'm a slow learner, so couldn't assimilate decades of living with coyotes 365 into a couple of years- THEREFORE to LEARN how to find locations where the coyotes came to me- I COULD NOT set traps all over the countryside because each coyote I took here, or there- was a coyote not available to me at "the spot"

seems commonsense to me- why run 100 traps for a 7 a day average or 150 traps for a 10 a day average- where one could, if the knowledge was gained, take 12 a day from 60 traps, or 20 a day from 100?

Heard once some advise about fishing- if you want to learn how a certain type lure works (say jigs)- USE ONLY THAT TYPE OF LURE. if you use it for 20 minutes without success, then switch to your old standby...you have gained zero, and are stagnent in your knowledge

to learn, you have to DO

I read the studies, I have a three-ring binder with all of them printed out. I told 1080, if I need to fall asleep and can't, I just read the studies!

I have no doubt thats true- you are on the record as saying studies are boring. but here is what puzzles me- you made fun of CRU concerning the dead cow study interest, and you stated "groundbreaking!! Earth shattering!!! coyotes are attracted to dead cows!!!"

and my thought was- thats what he got out of it? dead cows attract coyotes?

because what I got out of it (I stayed awake) is that the larger the attaction, the more territorial responses diminish, the more neighboring groups interact by that attraction, and what behaviors ebb because of the social interactions that such a dead pile bring out, or dissapate I guess

I've enjoyed reading them.....though I have not had an epiphany from them OR found any silver bullet in them that is tempting me to change my ways......

I can see that

I'm all ears and have followed your journey in an attempt to catch more with less.......and will continue to listen, engage, partake, discuss, argue....I have TONS of video and other photos that would support and/or erode my theories and yours.....but, as in the beginning of this thread, posting them here usually bites me in the butt....maybe not today, but down the road. Further, anything I say or post is poo-pooed because, frankly, you are SO sold on this as to only seeking direction from yourself, studies, or 1080. The rest of us are amateurs at best.

is that 1080s thought? to catch more with less?

I'm thinking not so much.

but for me, yes, thats for sure the goal- if I want to average more coyotes, I don't want to add more and more traps at that 7% ratio do do so. If I believe 7% was the only outcome, then yes, more and more traps would be the answer. My goal is 15-20 a day WITH those 100 traps- can I do it? maybe, maybe not but not checking those 93 empty traps every day, allows me either more family time, or if I was to want to, to set those other 93 traps AT high % locations.

I know that "most" think yeah, nice to have those spots, but I don't have them and therefore need to set "here and there'. but in any area with enough coyotes to matter, those spots ARE there.

heavens knows- I'd love to KNOW, now today how to do that, how to choose to make every location THE SPOT...but thats not going to happen. but each journey starts with a single step, and until you TAKE that step, you make no progress

but you are right in that I'm not interested in going backwards in discussions with the likes of Tripleex, who stated in a post his best year was 12- or debate things that are, or should be givens. if I put a poll up on whether a kneeling cloth should be used, the majority would say yes- is that then something to rethink, because most say it?

seems all the discussions get bogged down into whether The Spot is fiction, or fact. And thats up to each to decidie on there own, and if its fiction in their minds- whats the point of beating a dead horse? but the reason I particpate in these discussions isn't to decide if the premise is fiction or fact- but that it IS factual, and therefore- how do you 1)determine that and 2)how do you take advantage of that. we get to a certain point, and its right back at the beginning- all coyotes circle, locations are locations (see a track, set a trap)and so forth.

Do you really believe that to be true- that the location means nothing in how a coyote works a set? If you DO believe it makes a difference, shouldn't the discussion be based on THAT? and if thats a belief, then behaviors and reactions AT CERTAIN TYPES of location, must be the next step? It truly boggles my mind, that this concept is so dismissed by "most". sweet jesus- take it as a given and go from there!

I know what I do, and what I do compare to MOST people. Trying to compare that to what ONE man does or thinks makes little sense to me.....apples and oranges.

Doesn't mean I am not listening.....but I am not going to go out opening day this year and try to set LESS traps.....I am going to bust my hump to set MORE. Everything else being equal, I will have more coyotes than I did last year.

if I want to be a home run leader, then I'd study the great home run hitters, and see what they are doing that could improve my swing, power, etc rather than emulate a buck-fifty hitter with no power. Their success might never be mine, but thats my fault, not theirs.

doesn't it make you wonder late at night, how many you WOULD take if all your locations were based on "the spot". I know I do.

[trappnman]

perhaps if I go about it from a different angle

to make sure, in the following I'm referencing how I use to manage my coyote lines

What I used to do- and still do it to a degree but am trying to break the habit- is set up a cluster of farms here, a cluster of farms there- setting 2-6 traps on each farm. Going down the road a mile or a half mile semeed like an eternity in good looking habitat. And over the years, I took coyotes at all those locations, some paid off, others didn't, never knowing which spot would be "hot" for that year.

Setting a lot of traps, for the same coyotes. Setting traps with too much overlap on the same coyotes- you can only catch them once.These discussions questioned if there wasn't 1, or 2 locations in that cluster, that were visited by all the coyotes using that area.

So that is Leap of Faith #1- that there IS a location(s)in an area, or range of a group of coyotes, that will be, depending on circumstances, be visited by the majority or a regular meaning daily basis.

----------------------------

The next step I was now starting to see as key, was accepting that not only were there areas that specific coyotes used daily, but that there existed areas that multiple groups used daily

So Leap of Faith #2- that shared areas existed.

----------------------------

I believe both of the above are givens- if anyone thinks they should not be considered as givens, I'd like to know the thinking behind why not.

So I take them as givens, and work from that point on.....

-----------------------------

Leap of Faith #3- is that coyotes have locations where they spend more time in relation to their range, or stall out points. I'm not talking avoidance, or standing back from sets but places where there are kickbacks, play areas, rolling, lots of turds and piss and tracks- which tells you how much and how often it's getting used.

I'd be hard pressed to believe any coyote trapper would disagree with #3 as well

its not much of a stretch, to come to the conclusion that coyotes at such an area work sets differently, with less caution, with less avoidance of the set- that such a location negates many negatvie behaviors and to put it in my wpord-s a coyote at a stall out point is simply a more relaxed coyote, one with his guard down so to speak- so hes at home, he tends to work a set more directly

now that might be more of a Leap of Faith than some are willing to take, but for me, thats Leap of Faith #4

so thats the system that causes such controversy-

#1 Within a coyotes range, locations exist that get use by most coyotes within that range frequently
#2 That multiple groups, do share these use high use areas
#3 That there will be a stall out point, shared by those multiple groups
#4 The value of such locations is both the increased visits by coyotes, but the mindset that occurs at stall out locations

Again, I'd sure like to hear why or how anyone could disagree with the above.

How many traps I run, or how many days I stay,and other details, really is a singular issue and has nothing to do with the "system" as outlined above

hell, even through the % question out the window- and stick to the four points outlined above.

if one does take those as givens- then the discussion MUST turn back to HOW the heck do I find, recognise those locations that would, no matter how many traps run, reduce the number of empty traps

[bogio]

Shot a couple of videos today and I'll be damned if Tman didn't beat me to it in his last two posts!



click it


click it


As I stated before, my questions were honest and asked in good faith. Also, I write my own material. The pictures showed exactly the behavior I am trying to learn to avoid. They and the accompanying text can be easily accessed and viewed in the coyote scent marking thread in the archives, page 5 I believe. The coyote in the blended set was not used due to the fact that it related in absolutely no way to my question, WHAT CAUSED MULTIPLE COYOTES TO SHOW AVOIDANCE OF THE SETS. I had no intention of biting you in the butt or calling you out. Watch my stuff and have at ME if you like.

[Zagman]

Hard to argue without getting into numbers.......

Plain and simple, and I know that you and I caught just about the same amount of coyotes last year.

We each drove 125 miles a day and ran all day.

You say your two-man team is not an advantage for you, and I do know I am younger than you, so lets call that one EVEN.

We caught the same amount of coyotes. PERIOD.

I did it in two weeks.....you did it in five weeks. This is fact. You took three full weeks more of 125 mile days and hours to do what I did in two weeks.

I am just having trouble, knowing this to be true, and no matter what logic you present or type, I see little reason to change what I am doing based on that. Now, if suddenly your catch doubled in that same five week period, you'd get my undivided attention.
*********************************************************************************************************************************************

If you are going to keep quoting the 7%, at least get it right......not daily.....over a whole SEASON.....and it wasn't 7%.....I've told your handler a million times that was an error on Noonan's part.

You think I really shoot for a daily 7% catch ratio and am happy with that? But, hey, keep quoting it!

I did over 8 coyotes a day last year in 14 days. You did three a day in five weeks driving the same distance, but with fewer traps.

I share videos, pics, and actual numbers and am not afraid to do so.....the couple of you that find my dismal catch ratio and total numbers laughable bothers me not the least!

You talk in open sentences, vague statements, and never talk actual numbers. "Well, the coyote season is over and overall we are happy as we nearly reached our goal". Great! What WAS the goal??

You always ask me why this gets down to you and me? How can it not? Our lines are far more comparable than comparing what we do to a year-round ADC guy or whatever......

Don't pity me for missing out or not seeing what you see.......I am the most opened-minded bloke I know and try new things daily, yearly, etc. I just have watched as you tell us what you are attempting to do, yet tell us NOTHING........You seek out THE SPOT, and yet, as a gifted writer, can never quite articulate what/where/how it is.....when asked directly, well, you say "read the studies".

Well, ok. The Teaching Website!

I talk to 1080 all the time,...heck, we even meet in Denver and buy each other dinner occasionally. I think we are now even dinners bought! He has a unique approach to "teaching" for sure......I've listened, but more than anything, I've answered 14,000 questions to him. Has he helped me? Yep.

He struggles with why I won't change to his system to.......well, guess why? I DONT KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He doesn't tell you by design! He's a gifted no-answer man! What's his line? No one rides for free! So I know he hasn't told you either, so your non-sharing is moot, since you should be sharing what YOU have gleaned from these studies and how you have changed your approach. I've read everything you type and understand you are still seeking answers. But the locations you set seem to be about the same........

So, between his tight-lipped approach and yours, yes, I am a bit cynical........

So, I have little choice but to continue doing what I do as I've not been shown anything useable to date.......and, still, I can honestly say my averages and totals get better every year with my program. So, I reckon that will have to be good enough for now.

Zagman

**************************************************************

Oh, on the dead cow study....I made fun of CRU? That was on another website and the sarcasm was directed at the study. A study that found that the more dead cows are in a pile the more attractive it is to more coyotes! That's the punchline. Hog dumps, feed lot dead piles out west, my own dairy cow dumps are always better with more than less.....my point was, did a study really need to be done about that? That was all....

My sense is you already knew that and did not need a study to tell you in the first place, yet the fact that is WAS a study vs. just having Bob Wendt tell you made it "earth-shattering". I'd much rather take advice from a guy that catches coyotes in numbers than some under-grad's musings......but that is just me.

[trappnman]

boy, you really want to make this personal, do you not? I'll respond to your latest post, but after that I'm done with this nonsense.

the discussion has nothing to do with me, you or anyone as an individual- perhaps that your problem with it all- you see it as a personal competition betwen you and me, whereas its not-

I don't give your catch numbers a thought, nor could care less about them- I'd never for example call someone up, telling them I just had to call and tell me that they beat my up to that time best year number-it wouldn't even occur to me to do so.


and lets put your 2 weeks in perspective- you might trap not working for 2 weeks, but your posts are full of how many coyotes you picked up in the next month or more as you run certain locations on a part time basis. We checked traps for 30 days- running 1/3 to 1/2 the amount of traps you run.

what you need to understand is this- I was now taking the same amount of coyotes, running 1/3 to 1/2 the traps I usually ran. And I either hit a home run, or I struck out. My locations either produced nothing or 1- or 4 and up. Very few locations where I caught 2-3.

what is there in my statement, repeated over and over both in posts and in time spent explaining- that is so hard to understand? ONE CANNOT LEARN A NEW SYSTEM, BY CONTINUING TO USE THE OLD. its that simple and uncomplicated.

but I do have a question for you- why do you think you have earned the right, to demand I spell out exactly for you what I've learned? cannot you make the same conclusions yourself? Damn right I don't post everything I know- why the heck should I? and why should 1080? is nothing earned anymore? if these posts leave you not knowing, so be it- but there have been multiple clues given- up to the individual to make use of these clues, or to ignore them. I've learned, unless 1080 is busting my balls- there is a REASON for every post, and every video he puts up. knowing that, I try to find the meaning in each-

but since you want to make it all so personal mano vs mano- let me just say this- only once, have we trapped similar areas, at close to the same time. I trapped on 1 side of the road, you trapped the other a week or two later. You words to me were- good thing for snares cause we got our asses handed to us with traps. lori and I trapped half a day, with the grandkids, and took 19 in that week. What were you and your partners numbers with traps during your time there? And dawn to dark Im thinking, cause thats how you run

you went to WY with a man that had trapped it before, vs me and lori going out and cold rolling it on a family vacation

you state you read my posts- yet then you make a comment concerning my locations are still the same- you know with reading, comprehension is also important

where did you get the impression that I meant the 7% was daily? because of the 93 traps? no my friend, I meant over the WHOLE SEASON- but to put it so there is no misunderstanding-

2 weeks, 125 or 150 traps or how many you run, gives you roughly 2000 trap nights- so at that SEASONAL 7% average (which was always understood) that means you checked 1800+ non coyote caught traps over that season.

no one is making fun of your catch numbers- but I do shake my head and wonder WHY you show such a strong advesion to something that might give you a higher %- and rather than discuss it, and come to conclusions together- you turn it into a personal shooting match and complain we AREN'T TELLING YOU ALL??

its simply a discussion of what type of percentages are possible- and then, I for one, need to ask WHY, HOW are those 20-25% possible? Cause I wasn't getting that, and still am not getting that- so if Babe ruth tells me I can hit more homers by holding my bat like this- I'm not going to argue or asy "well, thats your opinion"- I'm going to LISTEN

so if you do want to learn, and get better- why would you not embrace the concept? Why do you continue to insist, its a competition between yo uand me? cause let me assure you, that competition is one sided.

so if you do really want to learn, then lets shift the discussion back to whats important- how location works with innate behaviors.

-----------------

I DONT KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought I made it quite clear, but if you missed it, here it is again-

so thats the system that causes such controversy-

#1 Within a coyotes range, locations exist that get use by most coyotes within that range frequently
#2 That multiple groups, do share these use high use areas
#3 That there will be a stall out point, shared by those multiple groups
#4 The value of such locations is both the increased visits by coyotes, but the mindset that occurs at stall out locations


I see my questions on locations were ignored- thats ok, I expected them to be.

but you did mention you had "tons of video" debunking "my" thories- I'd like to see them

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ah yes, the dead cow study- Oh, on the dead cow study....I made fun of CRU? That was on another website and the sarcasm was directed at the study. A study that found that the more dead cows are in a pile the more attractive it is to more coyotes! That's the punchline. Hog dumps, feed lot dead piles out west, my own dairy cow dumps are always better with more than less.....my point was, did a study really need to be done about that? That was all....

My sense is you already knew that and did not need a study to tell you in the first place, yet the fact that is WAS a study vs. just having Bob Wendt tell you made it "earth-shattering". I'd much rather take advice from a guy that catches coyotes in numbers than some under-grad's musings......but that is just me

if you read the study, and if this is your only conclusion, so be it. and if you knew all the other, more pertinent information in the study- then YOU would be leading the charge for this system- because reading the study, shows conclsively WHY "the Spot" is being looked for.

THATS the punchline- how behaviors change.

[Zagman]

Hey, someone has to take Wendt's place or Joel's to keep this place lively!

I will say one last thing....studies are one person's/groups findings or conclusions and should not always be confused with facts.

I know what works for me based on my own experience. Good luck this year....I hope you hit whatever catch % goal you have! I am shooting for more coyotes than I did before. Just need some good luck!

MZ

PS: BTW, my videos got posted here by others without my knowing or permission, so I have little choice but to jump in......but hey, your house, your rules! LOL

[trappnman]

Hey brother, I wish everyone the best of success this year and hope you exceed your best year

your video was posted on the forum, and exists on the orignal thread- but no problem- I'll gladly delete it- but it was only an example of a circling coyote, never an attack against you and it posed the very apt question- is this the norm or can something be done about it?

I would like to know- is there anything it the 4 points I listed that you disagree with, and if so, why?

[trappnman]

1080- you have been awful quiet lately, got anything to say or add to the thread?

[RdFx]

1080 is either doing up some traps or got his typing finger caught.....!!!!!!!

[trappincoyotes39]

One thing to keep in ones mind in all of this is timing, that is a critical part that isn't being discussed! Move your start date back to mid Novemeber and you will see things do not stay static they are changing and pressure can change a lot. I know some are talking to maximize catch but not everyone can start in early that does make a difference in the over all talking of innate behavior. The spot will change for sure. Can the spots come back? yep and they will if things don't change too much. Look at where the old timers put out their 1080 bait stations one per township, where do they put them? Why did they choose the areas they did? Did they stay constant with activity? Or was there seasonal and pressure changes that effected visitation?

[1080]

Sept 27, 2013 15:29:43 GMT -6 trappnman said:

1080- you have been awful quiet lately, got anything to say or add to the thread?

Suck me in like "Wiley" did years ago

He called a few nights back,we talk for a bit,and then asks me whats new on CRU,and reminds me of my entrance here on CRU....

True Story:

I get a call from Wiley ages ago and he tells me about this site that talks coyotes,BW is on it and I`ll luv the nonsense he`s posting.I told him I had enough of the Tman days and I think I`ll pass.Tells me NO,you gotta check it out.Emails me some of what is being discussed and then calls me again and asks what I think.I told him same shiit different day,I`ll pass.Few weeks go by I get a few more emails stating this/that but ONE topic caught my eye.A guy (MZ) has a post,and at the end says he`s writing a book called "Coyotes:I don`t know dick about them"...I laughed,and signed up about a week later..Folks,this was my start on CRU,,,,,, Some things never change.


Now you asked me"Anything to add"....Well,,,,I will forgo the dissection of what you/MZ had to say.It`s like tennis on here,back/forth.He and I don`t agree on much with trapping coyotes.So be it.What he cares to do with his time,on his line is HIS business,just like me and mine,Just as it isn`t some race between you 2.Who Cares,,,,really? Not me.Focus on what YOU can do for YOUR line.Let the chips fall where they may.I am grateful neither of you were involved in my Indiana trapping,I will say that.Andy was a clean slate,like putty I could mould and go along with my line management! It would work NO other way.I`m grateful for that.....

SO,,,whats left?

Tman,you have explained the bulk of YOUR understanding of frequency use/communal areas to the BEST of your knowledge....CONCEPTUALLY....

I think your understanding of the studies has been conveyed quite well!!!

I think folks struggle with the fact you get the "Concept",BUT it`s still in the infancy stages so far as your trapline is concerned.The fact you caught the same number of coyotes you normally do,but with 1/2th the traps speaks volumes to me !! You know what YOU need to do at this point,so I would suggest to focus your energy on finding(to the best of your ability)areas that will produce maximum scalps for the energy expended.You(and I) know that many of your key Spots have NOT been found,and the skeleton lines you run will need to expanded as best possible.180 degrees is off limits to you due to the river,so your at a serious disadvantage from the get go.N/S is limited,and west has it`s limitations as well.Do the best you can finding those key areas within the confines of the ground you have/can acquire.

Whether MZ,or anyone else for that matter see value in any of these concepts for taking coyotes "En Masse" is irrelevant!This isn`t ADC trapping.Take the most the fastest.Coyotes encounter each other constantly in fall,territoriality is not the issue for your endeavor.Exposure to the most coyotes,the fastest,over a very large area is.Don`t stray from that.My 10chk days in Indiana goes fast,and I have made the most of them..I think you would agree!!!!  Andy fox trapped the coyotes he caught when we met,he no longer does,and don`t YOU go back to that..

As I said earlier,we all do what we see best for ourselves.You have 2 wks before go time.I suggest you spend the time wisely afield.The sooner you learn and UNDERSTAND coyotes,the quicker this will come,but it isn`t going to happen in front of the computer!! Get Afield..

I understood eons ago I would need to know ALL I could about coyotes,and let me tell you when I say that my visits at Logan/Millville with penned coyotes/researchers yrs ago led me down an avenue I doubt would have be taken without those visits!!Truly an eyeopener...Particularly in regards to approach of objects/smells and where,in enclosures,they do and don`t approach and or act neophobic.I see the same behaviors afield,Much/most of the time.They are NOT paranoid all the time,but can/will act paranoid in the right circumstance/environment...WHERE a set is in a coyotes environment DOES matter,at least to me.How it appears/and is placed,does matter to me.I DO understand what they will accept,where they will accept it,and with what frequency it will be accepted,at least in my application of said sets on snow,bareground or otherwise,at least FOR ME,and my approach to THEM.Time of year,adults/pups,unexploited or not will matter as well ,and this will need to be taken into account also.You yourself focus on Fall/Volume as this is when you trap !!

I have given you both a specific clue about a key point regarding a set(neither got the same clue by design).The rest your on your own so far as thats concerned.Figure it out.Approach is particularly important(your tip).Coyotes can/will react unexpectedly.MUCH is very predictable !!!!!Learn it,recognize it,understand it.

It matters !!!

Best of luck to Both!!!






(Normally I don`t refer to luck in regards to trapping,you 2,,,, I`ll make an exception)

[1080]

Sept 26, 2013 4:50:27 GMT -6 Zagman said:

I have TONS of video and other photos that would support and/or erode my theories and yours

I almost forgot....

Present your case !!!..

Civility is my middle name.I made you a promise about "Ball Bustin".You care for(I would luv to)civil discourse,I`m your guy...

You know how I Luv video...Post them....Make your case.

I`m ALL ears...

Roll the dice,take a chance,try me...

Care for 2way civility...

I`m game....You?

Think about it

[bogio]

1080 said about Tman:


"I think folks struggle with the fact you get the "Concept",BUT it`s still in the infancy stages so far as your trapline is concerned."


I feel that the fact that this is a work in progress is a very important but completely overlooked aspect of what is happening here. There is no instant gratification. It will take time, patience, hard work, and above all an open mind.

[Zagman]

Ha, nice try! (BTW, my videos and photos would support or erode MY theories......and yours.) I am self-deprecating, a trait some of you do not embrace. Thus, the title of my book you pulled from "The Vault" from several years ago and mentioned above.

You know, I'd love to play, but since no one else really posts here now and/or only lurks, it'd be me against you two and a couple new Kool-Aid drinkers you've hooked, so I see little reason to keep feeding the machine. At least we now know there really IS one type of trapping where only ONE approach is right and works......never thought I'd see it.

You don't need me to post....you've saved every photo, video, post, quote, I've made for a decade. Its all in "The Vault" (and a little creepy, LOL).......and with the flexible rules here, once I have posted them, they are yours to do whatever you want with them. Have fun with it.......I can be another one of those "decent" trappers that USED to post here along with hundreds of others.......

Gappa, please stick to your word and take those videos down please.......or have your other "moderator" do it.

I have to get ready for coyotes and another year of muddlin' through mediocrity! Good luck to you to!

Zagman