An innate behavior

[Zagman]

Yes, but would you agree that while there are a million marked grass tufts out there, that one within sniffing distance and visual distance of an another stimuli (big hole, stink, catch circle, etc) makes that one the important one to that particular coyote?

To be clear, I NEVER set a dog-found grass tuft that is not in conjunction with another set or sets......never. That is the whole premise....dogs find grass tuft, that becomes my anchor, go upwind with the more obvious sets. I have never veered from that approach in these discussions.

Does not mean there are not better sets, locations, etc. Frankly, if we keep waiting for you to tell us or Gappa to discover it on his own, we'll be pooping in our diapers by then and won't be able to break a Jake open to set it.....so until then, we do the best we can with what we got!

Based on the info from the study above, what is a scent station? A fake station created by the guys doing the study? What type of scent? To me, in my approach, the "scent station" is a previously coyote-marked-with-urine spot, always a grass tuft. It is not a man-made creation placed just anywhere, but rather, a spot the coyotes have already been marking. My dogs found it and marked it themselves.......

Does your study address any behavior depicted while they avoided the "scent stations"?

MZ

[Zagman]

Oh....questions

Tracks in snow? Old habits...nothing to do with coyotes, hate the way they look at less noticeable to passerbys....

Operative....freezing rain then snow very common. Don't remember that day but do remember that freeze thaw month. That video shows only a skiff of snow and it was melting.

Covering it with snow to get some age on my covering to match surroundings and knowing it was melting anyhow......

MZ

[trappnman]

why not read the studies and tell us your concluionsm?

PS- I've "discovered" more than I've let on......ssssh!!

[redeagle]

Just my opinion- I believe they circle sets routinely- dry land or snow. I think guys should put another trap on the back side of the set to nab those that circle but won't commit to the pattern area. More traps, yes. But, why depend on only one trap to do the job? It won't take but a few extra minutes to put in another trap (blended) on the back side, and double your chances of making a catch.

[1080]

zagman
Yes, but would you agree that while there are a million marked grass tufts out there, that one within sniffing distance and visual distance of an another stimuli (big hole, stink, catch circle, etc) makes that one the important one to that particular coyote?



Therefore What ?

To a specific coyote,sure.Are you after a specific coyote or are you taking them En Masse?
You shifted to ADC mode...No?

zagman
To be clear, I NEVER set a dog-found grass tuft that is not in conjunction with another set or sets......never. That is the whole premise....dogs find grass tuft, that becomes my anchor, go upwind with the more obvious sets. I have never veered from that approach in these discussions.


I am aware of your procedure ,and No never notice you wavering.You have mentioned however your "Sleeper Set" produces best for you...Great...Happy for you.




zagman
Does not mean there are not better sets, locations, etc. Frankly, if we keep waiting for you to tell us or Gappa to discover it on his own, we'll be pooping in our diapers by then and won't be able to break a Jake open to set it.....so until then, we do the best we can with what we got!


I have to laugh.I feel like Charlie Chan and Sherlock Holmes rolled into 1...

I give clues,post studies,answer a few questions.

You know the Old Saying.......Ass/Gas/Grass, Nobody rides for free




zagman
Based on the info from the study above, what is a scent station? A fake station created by the guys doing the study? What type of scent? To me, in my approach, the "scent station" is a previously coyote-marked-with-urine spot, always a grass tuft. It is not a man-made creation placed just anywhere, but rather, a spot the coyotes have already been marking. My dogs found it and marked it themselves.......



OK
This isn`t news.You have been quite clear about it before..


My main intent of that had to do with Avoidance & Habituation and WHERE coyotes tend to have less frequent neophobic response.
Personally,,,I don`t believe/see ALL coyotes marking the SAME spot.Research I POSTED showed just that,and went into some AVOIDANCE behavior displayed by coyotes in regards to what the Biology Boys called "Marking Stations".Read it,if you haven`t already.

I won`t post my findings on a open forum,as I was shown things by Outstanding Western trappers yrs ago,and have spent countless hours in my own field studies on such...Trust me when I say,It`s fascinating !!!

You set marked Fescue downwind of your main attractor set,because of a coyotes propensity to pace and urinate downwind of the attractor...Great.You have success with it,and you do.Go for it.

I myself would/have spent time understanding WHY this is happening on my line.Many moons ago I saw what I suspect you encounter regularly.You have mentiond it here a number of times,as well as elsewhere..

I have minimal issues with this,and have made sure MY program/techniques/procedures elicit MINIMAL neophobic behavior.


zagman
Does your study address any behavior depicted while they avoided the "scent stations"?

This particular one does not.I know your referring to the aforementioned behavior I just discussed

[Zagman]

Actually the GTs are NOT my best producer any longer, as I have changed a few things over the last couple of years, but have been still used the locations my dogs find as my home base....the set is just been modified. Just been sitting on the results as I play around with it a bit.

MZ

[RdFx]

Studying and pursuing yotes and discussing catching keeps ones mind active till trapping season....also preparing for it and the traps.....nothing like hearing the geese going over at night when working on traps.... maybe seeing your first yote of the year compares!!!

[tripleex]

1080, can you explain why you wouldn't have chosen that location.

Zagman, how many years have you trapped that general location, and what made you set it?

[trappincoyotes39]

Ok 1080 I have all kinds of grass Timothy, blue, Bermuda , zoysia and some other species come on down I will give you all you want.

Thinking of scent marking I think some things to consider are is where is the marking taking place, what time of year, and if one doesn't know if marked by adult or juvenile clues can be found as to where the marking took place. It is an area where many coyotes might be or is it in the middle of a group of coyotes?, I see these as issues that effect outcome with a trap out in front depending on your goals.

In the right areas one can make a scent marking location that will be added to and made better by the local coyote population and to preserve it one would think of using drags over a staked set.

[1080]

Sept 17, 2013 17:43:36 GMT -6 tripleex said:

1080, can you explain why you wouldn't have chosen that location. Id be glad to pay gas, not into the grass, nor the ass, just curious as to your reasoning?

I can and I may have.

Sept 17, 2013 18:06:18 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Ok 1080 I have all kinds of grass Timothy, blue, Bermuda , zoysia and some other species come on down I will give you all you want.

Thinking of scent marking I think some things to consider are is where is the marking taking place, what time of year, and if one doesn't know if marked by adult or juvenile clues can be found as to where the marking took place. It is an area where many coyotes might be or is it in the middle of a group of coyotes?, I see these as issues that effect outcome with a trap out in front depending on your goals.

In the right areas one can make a scent marking location that will be added to and made better by the local coyote population and to preserve it one would think of using drags over a staked set.

Damn TC

Every once in awhile you pull a rabbit out of your hat(or ass)..

I Luv ya man...I never tried any of those,never thought of it,but you got balls for giving it a go.It helps explain some of your posts as of late too.God bless your soul


I`ll hand it to you,the second part of your reply actually made sense,good job TC...

Now tell me,were you smokin the Timothy or Bermuda before you typed,maybe some Bent as well..

I`ll try it,maybe I`ll make more sense to some of you guys

[trappincoyotes39]

1080 I can see the ad in high times now, " lets get bent on some bent grass" LOL.

[tripleex]

XXXXX

[slik1]

Awesome thread and Posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trappnman]

"I personally never questioned why you saw certain behaviors/reactions.As with all trappers,SOME is unavoidable,much is trapper related.This very topic spurred me to be the Best I could be when I started.
Avoidance,in all forms was troubling to say the least"

I think we can all agree to this, to some degree or the other, and that is that that some avoidance to sets is just going to happen, but at the same time, some is going to be trapper related. I guess where the questions come in, is what is unavoidable & what is not?

"Myself,,,,They can act Neophobic.Neophobes all the time,,,I don`t see that.In the right circumstance,,,you bet!"

doesn't this statement interest anyone other than myself?

it says a lot with a few words...

one train of thought is that coyotes are going to be coyotes, and there is nothing we can do to avoid...well, avoidance.

and the other is that most avoidance, is trapper related.

"I don`t see that.In the right circumstance,,,you bet!"

so for me, the question has to come down to addressing what are the "right circumstances"......and convesely would would then be the circumstance where avoidance becomes rare, and not commomplace?

many moons ago Zags had a thread "22 coyotes but oh the misses" and while he was talking more about pattern and set misses, I too think of not so much what I caught, but what was available for me to catch

my question is always this (to wonder about, hard to define it)is what % of coyotes that are aware of my sets, am I catching?

talking on the phone on early morning with Zags during season, I mentioned had to go, had coyotes to take out of traps- and Zags said isn't it fun, to get to the point where you go out and your thought isn't "will I have a coyote" but "how many coyotes do I have"?

so we try to increase the % by whatever means, and to try to figure out why they do something, and by knowing that, we can do things that don't cause those reactions, including choice of location.

a couple of thoughts-

We have all had locations where we put in 2-3 sets- and take coyotes there. Identical sets. yet 1 or 2 sets will take all the coyotes, and the other fresh set just sits there.

Why? Random? or a reason?

--------------
here is something I did fairly often, and got away from, but got back to it last year, and thats using a visual off the set. I picked up a few clean white cow skulls, and used them only in marginal areas, areas where I would take a coyote or two, or areas where I knew I wasn't quite right, but...poke and hope thats me.

and my thought was, and still is, that a large visual would pull coyotes to that location if made extremely visible (they stuck out like sore thumbs and I could see them from quite long distances from the set) and then make the sets away from the attraction. so I too was trying to use a negative behavior (the new, distinct stimuli and avoidance)to keep him in the area enough to then work my other sets, and I have what I considered good success- I don't believe I ever didn't get a coyote at a location with a skull (kept rotating them into the new loops). and the sets I was catching them in, were my regular hole sets.

and I'll use those skulls this year as well.

but thats still compensating for, well a bad location. Where I have no choice, rather than skip it, i'll set it...but I don't need the skulls AT the right locations. so then thats up to me- find the right locations.
----------------

I have one location that I've trapped 3 years. I've taken a few coyotes there, but always felt I was missing the boat. Its a huge dairy, and its in a generally good overall coyote ergion, but i just wasn't getting the success I felt was there.

the farm is on one side of road- across the road, is a hill that goes down into a coulee thats posted, then a house with a small barn, pasture and a few horses- other side of that house was the farmers land, and it went down a long draw to a dry/semi wet pond, and then into a valley- it LOOKED like a perfect coyote place- and yes, some sign.

was told they buried all dead cows.

this year, talked to Ma rather than Pa or the boys, and I mentioned ot her I wasn't getting the coyotes I thoguht, and did they own land I didn't know about. She said that posted section was theirs, and the field road went over the hill, through some waterways, down to a weed patch with a few trees...and there they put their dead calfs. I should feel free to go there.

I just might......

the point being this- Where I WAS set up, I was getting passing through coyotes, on their way to the NEXT valley, where the attraction point was. So how many did I miss? And yes, I DID have a skull there.

now, wih this new information, I need to determine where the stall out point is located. I'm very much looking forward to placing traps there this year

[braveheart]

Had a guy call he had his Rat dog stretched by a coyote.He seen this coyote on a game camera in his back yard.It came by every other day on camera.I picked a good spot away from the house I figure the travel in.But the farmer wanted it in his yard so he could see it.I made 2 dirt holes 50 yrds. from his front door I thought the thing would be to spooky to come work the set.Second day front came in and lite rain there this big male coyote sat got him on a getter lure.Never thought he would work a set in a close area to a house like that.Must of got real use to the area,.He was losing cats but didn't much care about them I figure a good rat dog should of controlled that population.

[jsevering]

kinda would go to innate behavior, in part I guess... but on the visual deals... not being color blind I sometimes wonder about the true color spectrum that they actually visualize... they have to be looking at a whole different world, have a cousin that is colored blind, talk to him some when were out and about... not saying he sees in the same spectrum as a coyote... but things I think would be obvious he walks right bye, and visa versa....

heard they see in shades of red... then heard they see in shades of white... yellow and blue.. or I guess you would say grey.. either way big deference...

just thinking it could go a long way as to timing with presentation or discovery... I understand contrast, but realize there is more too it... when I watch my cousin blowing past glow orange boundary flagging like a blind man... or not being able to pick up a blood trail that should of tripped a blind man.. guess what im trying to say is things I think obviously contrast or have a visual effect on me ... have no effect on him, its pretty mind boggling... jim

[trappnman]

I've had my dogs, and other folks dogs- go insane with barking and growling when you come out dressed im blaze orange. but yet, I've also found a piece of florescent flagging, seems to have no adverse reactions from coyotes or my dogs.

and I also know, and i'll take it s fact since its from accumulated knowledge, that different shades of dirt, DO have an adverse reaction at a set

I'm going to guess, that coyotes see things about like dogs- so experiments with contrast at least via colors, should give you information thats transferred to coyotes

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

I didn't read every post so if this has been brought up disregard.

I could be as simple as that coyote watched you make that set, or saw you getting out to relure it, spooky because it sees your truck in there everyday.

Some of my favorite sets for coyotes when I used to longline were to make a big flashy set by a cow skull or big dirt hole with skunky lure and then go out 10/20/30 yards and make a simple blended flat set using nothing but a turd maybe, or sometimes a partially buried piece of charred wood, or a few drops of "coyote water" which I learned from Wiley Carroll. Put a skinned coyote hide in a 5 gallon bucket and soak the dog smell out of it, then sprinkle a little bit of that water on a little clump of grass or a bush.

Or...............nothing at all!! That works well out here where there are large bare areas like dry stock dams and such. I small thing that sticks out in a mud flat will cause them to go over to it. Especially if there is a big attraction or even better yet another coyote tangled up causing hyperactive responses.

It gets those circling coyotes.

[bogio]

""coyote water" which I learned from Wiley Carroll. Put a skinned coyote hide in a 5 gallon bucket and soak the dog smell out of it, then sprinkle a little bit of that water on a little clump of grass or a bush."


I heard James Lucero talk about this same thing at a demo once. He called it "Coyote County".


He constricted some very elaborate sets. Said it was the equivalent of the coyote walking into the Bermuda Triangle. Big voodoo!!

[trappnman]

one thing to remember, if living where I do east- coyotes are so used to human odor, and seeing, hearing humans, that I doubt that it has much of an effect on them most of the time. One good example is yesterday stopping for a permission- guy told me he had one IN his hay barn the other day. and our collaring showed coyotes have little fear of moving between buildings and pens at night, even with loose dogs on the premises.

and what I see i nthe gopher fields, literally on a daily bais, is that coyotes have little fear of my scent, or novel objects (traps, stakes, flagging) and often go from trap to trap either eating the gophers, or digging up the trap

and its common place for coyotes to follow manure spreaders, or to hang around fields being harvested. In fact, I once caught a coyote at 2 in afternoon next to a corn field being picked- and the farmer went 2 rounds, watched the coyote come out of the woods and get caught

so whats all the above mean?

to me, it means that the mindset of a coyote, where he is at, and what his purpose in being there, is the key.

I've often asked myself- why does a coyote that all summer eats my gophers without any problems, suddenly balk at a set? human odor would reek at the gopher set- the traps are covered with it, plus its usually hot so i'm dripping sweat into the dirt, no gloves to handle everything, 2 of us, etc....yet.....

so one can discount, or at least I do, the human scent equation.

doesn't it then come down to presentation & locations?