An innate behavior

[J. Smith]

Damn, that's funny 1080. Real funny...Thanks for puttin'up!

Jim

[jsevering]

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i'll bite, when your panning right with your camera... sure looks like a decent hub for gang setting where the distinct fence line, crop change, contours meet just below you, right before you said there was a dead pile there also further off to your right...

think I would have to investigate the top, knob area some also ... curious where are you seeing the most scat... seeing the pile is fairly close.... jim

[trappnman]

this location has about everything one looks for- long distinct fence lines. 2 ponds, deep coulees, cows in pasture, a bone pile and a pile where an occasional dead cow is tossed.

and there are tracks at the stock pens, by the ponds, along the fence rows, by the bunkers. on the knobs etc.

and I've set traps over the years in pretty much all those spots, and have taken a coyote or two at most of them.

but I found all those locations to be random- that is- I set traps here and there, and I could not tell you which ones will pay off, only that in the gang setting at all points- some will. so I would set 8 traps, to cover all that area.

last 2 times I set it, I set 2 traps, at one location, and both times, caught more (from 2-3 previously scattered, to 5-6 at that spot, and 6 days, vs 2 weeks) in half the time.

[bogio]

Was looking through old postings last night as things are rather "stale" here of late. Read through this thread again and was disappointed in that it did not progress better.

As I stated before, my questions were sincere and no malice was intended. I HONESTLY want to decipher the behavior that was depicted in the videos and do everything I can to eliminate it. We have devoted quite a bit to discussions of location/behavior but always seemed to reach a peak we can not go ahead and break over. I think we were right there this time. There is shiit hanging out there begging us to ask about/discuss and yet it sank into a pissing match.

Our loss.

[trappnman]

one thing I'm convinced of, is that your dog can give you a lot of insight on how coyotes react

one thing that constantly amazes me, is my dogs reaction to novel objects depending on where he is.

for example, if he sees something that is unfamiliar to him in the woods/fields- he approaches stiff legged and cautious

but the opposite occurs in familiar territory

for example, yesterday had the hose out, and the nozzle was at an angle, so it was off the ground, and pointing in the air. Buddy came around the corner, saw that nozzle, and immediately his head went up, his ears were cocked, and he ran straight to it to investigate

2 different reactions to new objects based on his familiarity of where he was.

how can this NOT translate to coyotes? To me, its a direct revelation on how coyotes work sets in familiar areas, and unfamiliar areas

and it comes down to a key word, and that word for me is confidence.

so this is one innate behavior, that has a direct result to trapline success- and that the key to higher numbers is being able to set where innate behaviors work with you, not against you.

true, populations matter, of course they do- but the goal (or at least my goal)is to catch a higher % of coyotes that are aware of my sets

[bogio]

Which brings us to our peak. We agree that confidence/comfort is key. Buddy shows that in his reaction to the nozzle when encountered in his core area. We however do not want to work our coyotes in their core areas, the 3 vs 30 study proves that. So, for maximum numbers exposure, we are concentrating on finding areas of overlap which due to that fact, being shared territories, I would think would take away a degree of that comfort. What exists within those overlaps which re-instills that level of comfort? A particular type of geographical feature? I feel that once you understand it, it becomes self evident and easily recognized.

As far as my opinion on the coyotes reaction in the videos. I think it was as simple as where they where located and that is not a dig/attack/belittling as I see problems like this on my own line. I want to learn how to eliminate it. It is true that the follow up action produced a coyote however my goal is to not have to follow up.

[trappnman]

the key I think is the area where I should spend more time, and that is in knowing where individual groups actually are (mom and pups etc)- and once that information is known, then that common area SHOULD be self evident.

I don't know if I'll ever get that knowledge beyond an elementary grasp of where my coyotes are....and that my fault, and it is what it is. If I could catch 500-1000 coyotes, and sell them for $100 each, I could afford to devote my entire year to the endeavor, and I don't have a doubt in the world that IF I devoted every day from now to opener on studying my coyotes, I'd double my take.

I do hold at least a small card in my hand, and that is 90% of my gopher farms, are also my coyote farms so I do keep and eye and ear open

I feel pretty confident in my setting methods. If there are coyotes there, I'll catch them. I'm not saying I take every coyote that is aware of my trap, but the % are up there to where I think different mechanical/lures/bait wouldn't add enough new coyotes to worry about. I get very little digging, tracks in pattern, etc

I've proven to myself multiple times over past few years, that 1080s idea of catch them and go is true. Without a doubt, in a good location, you can leave traps for weeks, and catch a coyote every now and then. I've been down that trial before- but I always stayed that long because I was under the assumption that one NEEDED to stay extended periods- I read the advice from a well known trapper saying "If you can't trap coyotes for at least 2 weeks, then its not worth setting a trap"....and often read the advice "let your traps sit for 3-5 days, so the coyotes got used to them, then you will catch coyotes"

And I also read how first day catches were rare, and that the best days on the line were those 4,5,6th days.

I was so very, very lucky that old Wiley E took me under his wing (I miss him & the debates, imagine FWS obsessed with coyotes) and got me thinking that #1- the set, the lure, the bait...were SECONDARY to working with the coyotes behaviors for success

And I took that to heart. but I was still locked into that extended stay on locations. but I started noticing this- my best days weren't days 4,5 or 6- my best day was 1,2,3. but I had some locations, that DID'T produce til 7 days, or 10 days.....

and on my good locations, I would catch another here and there.....so was locked into that rut-

the 2nd revelation was 1080, and won't get into all the history, but it came down to this: if you were in the right spot, you could catch all that were there very quickly, in a few nights and move....... and the silver bullet to this system.......... behavior

Can be broken down to 3 concepts:

1) its easier to catch a coyote where he lays up on approachment

2) the more coyotes that are there, the more you will catch

3) the bigger the attraction, the larger the use from multiple groups

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I'm in an area where a lot of farms have cows, either beef or dairy. therefore, I have a lot of attraction points......kind of like a corner that has a Starbucks on every corner- doesn't really matter which one I go to

The more open the country, the more obvious the main attraction point, yet there we come to perhaps limited surrounding habitat.. so kind of a trade off from the more wooded/hilly portions of my line where habitat is overwhelming yet multiple dead piles, etc.

so we are back to what location, or spot can we choose, that will give us what we want- and that spot must do several things for the coyote. why is he laying up? isn't that the clue? hes got to be within visible/scenting distance of the attraction before he moves in- a staging area if you will

1) be in the right direction from the attraction vis a vis wind, access points, terrain

2) be at that nebulus "right" point...not to close to install wariness first, nor too far away to be useless

How do you find that? physical characteristics must be involved- maybe not so much written in stone as A,B, & C must be present, but in relation to the surrounding area.

I'll stick with the word "confident" because to me, that seems to sum up all the innate behaviors + take into account the physical properties of that spot-

where the coyote is confident that he spends time there, loafs there, pees there, etc......

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I do believe that finding the spot is based on physical determinations (after the establishment of multiple groups) and that with time, that knowledge becomes most obvious

in my mind, I think I'm over the hump on choosing the location, and the next step is identifying overlaps-

[bogio]

Do you feel that the percentage of locations you are now setting is higher/lower overlaps. I feel that I for the most part am still working single groups. On short stays, spot type locations that are serving just the residents coyotes would be more productive than random travelways but obviously locations that are overlaps would simply have more bodies to donate.

While the research says the majority approach from down wind, I find many attraction points that the only habitat/approach is upwind with nothing but open tilled fields downwind. Do you feel they will still swing downwind through open terrain with no cover? Furthermore, will they establish a stall out in this open area, say from an elevated vantage point? And lacking elevation, what else could cause stalling/milling/confidence in a barren agricultural wasteland where things such as trees and fencelines are nonexsistent?

[trappincoyotes39]

Bogio remember time of year plays into as well, what coyotes can and wil, do in the summer is different than in the fall winter to a degree, also the make up of the population but then again watching coyotes in the summer is a real eye opener for fall trapping as well. Just to confuse things a little more.

setting coyote on the fringe of their territory's is a plus at times but then again what kind of true territory are they protecting come November anyhow? You have the largest population of coyotes in the yearly cycle and 50 percent or more will be young coyotes harvested baring disease or mange issues. Spokes on a wagon wheel, your looking for the hub to be the place to set. The larger diameter of that wheel is where all the broken family groups will be laying up and geography and food source and attractions become very important. They hold a key through out the life cycle of a coyote.

I have a few spots down here in Missouri that are good for 10-14 coyotes real quick every fall, the land,the food source and the location affording them great cover all say this is the spot to catch the bulk of the coyotes. All around these locations are farmed ground except for the refuge and that boarders a major hwy and RR tracks easy to determine this is where every passing coyote must come to. The "factory" lies within the refuge a area. I guess whatI am saying is the hub isn't always or rarely smack dab in the middle of the grounds, the hub gets moved but still spokes on a wheel lead to that hub.

I have called a few coyotes in my life and they always amaze me will they circle down wind in open terrain? They sure can but offer them a nice spot to come into and you will get them in closer and with more confidence for sure, now some crazy things happen when they are denning and protecting pups Specially those really aggressive ones, I have had coyotes within 1 ft of me laying prone on the ground before. Awsome dateline rush for sure. makes shot gunning them fairly easy. calling has taught me a lot and that has helped me figure out even better trap and snare locations. Also watching their mannerisms as they have come into my calling from some distance away and watching what they do and how they react to things on their way in as well.

[trappnman]

I don't think it matters concerning protecting territory or not insofar as this discussion goes.

Assuming other factors stayed the same, in the non territorial times patterns formed during the previous months would still be in place, regarding attractions and how they work them.

Spokes on a wagon wheel, your looking for the hub to be the place to set

Randy, isn't this a turn about from your previous posts? That is, I recall discussions where you stated that you preferred to set on the spokes, rather than the hub

agree that the hub, or spot, isn't the center of the territories, but at the same time this is true- wherever the hub is, determines where the spokes would be.

that is- once the hub is known, the spokes can easily be determined.

so we are back to WHAT pinpoints the location of that "hub"?

and I'm back to my fledgling ideas developed years ago, that physical properties determined those mega "social" spots, although I was under the impression these spots meant socialization, and I know now that's not really true, but its more common ground.

I don't think that finding the best spot on a farm is difficult- whats difficult is finding those common points- and we (or at least I) are back to the point on why, & where these common spots occur.

Are there shortcuts (based on experience) that key these spots through physical characteristics?

and my conclusion is that yes, based on somes' ability to coldroll, and KNOW the spots from simple observation of the land layout-

so perhaps that's what we can sort out, based on my experiences, and others

[bogio]

TC said:

" have called a few coyotes in my life and they always amaze me will they circle down wind in open terrain? They sure can but offer them a nice spot to come into and you will get them in closer and with more confidence for sure,"

But lacking that "nice spot" will the behavior/propensity of/to wanting to approach from downwind over ride the desire for concealment and with that lack of concealment can the level of confidence/comfort that makes them more receptive to our offerings be achieved?

[trappnman]

I don't think open fields, stubble fields matter much at all- dark offers a lot of concealment, and the wind direction is important only in finding "the spot" meaning it should be downwind from the attractant

[jdpaint]

Was hoping some more of this would come up. At first the studies and posts were nothing more than words. After a few more seasons setting , a little of it has come more clear and I see it on the line . Thanks. Is it possible coyotes will mark or leave a message for the person and has nothing to do with the sets or lures ? As with the hub and the wheels ,,,, those darn hills,access,permissions and terrain seem to get in the way for me.I have found a good one i get permission on both the coyotes and groups of fox will come into and leave from every which way.It is quite a sight some days after a fresh snow.By the way ,that resting set you put out ,has really put some fur in the garage. I have 3 things in my life , family , work and trapping.Im not a pro , but it doesnt mean one can not learn alot about there intended target .

[trappnman]

the resting set is my go to set on any high bank bend

jd- I'm not sure of what you mean by your question concerning coyotes marking.

all the talk of innate behaviors, I think has scared off a few people. people have often asked me if I'm a "eastern style or western style" coyote trapping- and I always reply that I try to have the mindset of a western trapper, and the reason is simple.

lets look at mink for a minute- I'm 3rd generation of mink trappers with an extended family being the same. Dad's circle of friends included other mink trappers, and mink/rat trappers were all over. Its part of our heritage so to speak- new trappers didn't have to continually reinvent the wheel, I for example was mink trapping with the combined knowledge of dozs of mink trappers, and countless years of experience-

I can safely say, that in my state, few have caught as many coyotes as me- and that's not bragging- its showing how small my pond really is.

now compare that to western coyote men- their history and experience to coyotes is what mine is to mink.

coyotes are a multifaceted wheel, and it time consuming and difficult, to keep reinventing that wheel-

and it kept coming back to what does a coyote do, where and when does he do it- what things does he do, because he simply cannot help himself, its ingrained in him- like we jump when we hear a loud and unexpected noise-

and to keep it simple- the question becomes would you rather have a coyote at your set that spookys, that's in a timid mode, that is perhaps concentrating on other things (danger. food, travel.........or

would you rather have a stoner coyote so to speak- relaxed, kicked back, loafing

and wouldn't you rather have a trap set where a coyote might spend 20, 30 minutes vs one where he's just passing by?

the beauty of research, is its bits and pieces- the more you read, the more you understand the more bits and pieces you have.

for example- in our coyote study here (and multiple studies confirm this) we found the "average" coyote travelled about 7-8 miles a night. A very repeating patterns for multiple coyotes, was to have a pattern of having 2-3 locations, that he visited on a random basis during an 8 hour tracking period

so he would be at A, then travel to B, then random B,C,B,A etc

now- this study was done in an area with no big dairies vis a vis big attractions- but was filed with numerous smaller farms, running 10-75 beef or dairy-all wooded, all coulee county with flatter ridges.

its in this area today, that I find it hard to find THE location, and feel that perhaps such does not exist- sort of like a small town 30 years ago with no big grocery, but a bunch of mom and pops

so to me, innate behaviors are the building blocks of coyote trapping success-

and man can catch a lot of coyotes in good populations, by just setting at intersections or on tracks- but at a certain point in time what became important to me is getting (or trying to) every coyote that comes along.

I DO, without a doubt, feel that over the past 3 seasons my trap night %, has jumped dramatically- it could increase even more if I could JUST
figure out how to pinpoint "spot" locations more accurately.

so that's the stage I'm at in all this discussion- I want to get better- and I'm going to-

anyone else, feel free to jump in-

[bblwi]

I have walked my 7.5 year old yellow lab 2-4 miles every day since he was about 7 months old.
What I have learned from him is that almost every thing he investigates he does so from a fairly small angle from the side and he prefers coming in from the left most often. By low angle I mean closer to parallel to the attractor then perpendicular.
I have also noted that he will urinate on specific items in every which way possible and I am not going to use or have not used many urine post sets for many years.
Also when a larger canine, (wolf) is scented he reacts very timidly and will actually shake and whine. Bears don't give him the same fear as do wolves. (from a scent aspect) We have seen a bear and a wolf while hiking up north.
I am also setting traps much closer to the hole now too as he seems to work real close to the attraction area.

Bryce

[trappnman]

I could not agree more Bryce, in that domestics at the very minimum, point the way to understanding innate behaviors. and I don't mean to mark sets- because as you observed, seeing where dogs approach items to mark, is iffy at best, random at worst.

I mean in watching how and when dogs approach new, and novel items- and one thing that's easy to see, is that reaction-

[bblwi]

The other thing I noticed about domestic canines and maybe not so true of wild ones is that there can be a change in the landscape on a certain day and it may take them a few days or a week to notice this as they are busy with other activities and duties. Once the change is noted then they approach very, very cautiously and may well not even approach closely the first few times. This shows to me why and how sets can go on visited for a bit or even some time and yes it means that one needs to be as close to the desirable location as possible and that you want a set that is workable and one they will work. For me that is some type of a walk through either dirt grass or chaff.

I am not an accomplished canine trapper. 5 years ago I ran a line of 25 traps on 5 farms for 7 days and caught 1 YOY yote, a grey and 7 reds, 5 of the reds were females caught in the hind foot using the older standard 6-9 inches back from the hole with the pan for yotes. I wonder how many other canies I missed! Sure did well on grinners however and several nice larger male coons but that is not what I was targeting.

Bryce

[aaroncurtis]

May 25, 2014 7:44:53 GMT -6 trappnman said:

- in our coyote study here (and multiple studies confirm this) we found the "average" coyote travelled about 7-8 miles a night. A very repeating patterns for multiple coyotes, was to have a pattern of having 2-3 locations, that he visited on a random basis during an 8 hour tracking period

so he would be at A, then travel to B, then random B,C,B,A

In regards to the coyotes traveling 7-8 miles per night........are you saying the coyotes covered 7-8 miles during the night but those miles included doubling back to a location that he had already been too? Essentially , 8 miles were covered but he never left a 1-2 square mile section?

[trappnman]

either/or

tracking data showed movement behavior roughly broken down into 2 types- let me point out these were not static, and that the behavior changed for individuals all the time.

1 type would have the coyote I n basically 1 area- but during the night, he would be moving "constantly" so during the period, even though he hadn't left a few acres, he put on 7-8 miles (on average) during the night.

other animals would travel more out of a smaller defined area, and these coyotes often had the pattern I described- going back and forth between 2-3 destination points over the period. so yes, that includes doubling back.

but we also had coyotes that, for example, like one little female- was a homebody for several months, seldom being off the home farm, until 1 night she went 19 miles and got killed by a car

obviously all coyotes all the time did not have this pattern, but overall, that pattern emerged- and it is a pattern that seemed to be fairly consistent when checking with other free range studies- that 7-10 miles "travel"

what this means is this- travelways might give you one shot at something- but destination points, will give you multiple chances I nthe same night.

I've often wondered how many times a coyote is aware of a set, before he commits- at the very least, at times a coyote is going to be aware of your set multiple times, before he commits.

[Deleted]

Great response!