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Post by bblwi on Jul 24, 2016 20:37:15 GMT -6
The 70% who want change may not be in favor of Trump as the change agent. If we want less population growth, less metro area growth, less service related employment, less diversity within our culture, less public education, etc. then the change that people want is going to break a 2-3 generation trend not a couple terms.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Jul 25, 2016 1:07:00 GMT -6
Trump is a smart man." (Pam disagreed with me.
Did I? I think he thinks he's very clever, I think his ego will be his downfall. Maybe we'll actually hear some of his plans before the election. So far, it's all big talk and no substance.
I saw a commercial the other night, it showed some little kids watching TV and had clips of some of the vile things Trump said on the campaign trail and the message was: Your kids are watching. I hope I'll see it again, I think it might just get undecided voters thinking if he's the President they really want.
Cheers, Pam
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Post by redsnow on Jul 25, 2016 5:01:38 GMT -6
Well, Clinton offers more of the same policies as Obama, that we don't like. If 70% of us want change, the only choice is Trump.
I'm part of that 70%, as Brian said the other day, we're just fed up, sick and tired of all the bs coming out of DC. We're tired of the "system"! And Hillary is part of that system. We despise the system.
I was telling you about this video I watched about Trump, it was more or less about Trump, his airplane, and pilot, co-pilot. It was a long video, forget what channel it was originally on? Very interesting!
I'm just like everyone else, I don't know much about Trump, other than he's rich. But watching the video, when he's doing his thing, talking with the pilots, other folks working for him, etc, Trump does come across "first impression" as a man of authority. He had a plan, short and to the point, they'd get it done.
Very professional. That was back before he was running for President, so he does have a "softer" side. In the coming weeks you'll see more and more substance, and I'm sure he'll tone down things, unless he's talking about Clinton.
Trump is going to shake up DC, and that's just what we need.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2016 7:59:34 GMT -6
what is his plan?
seriously. I've seen nada.
"I'm going to do great things" isn't a plan
esp when that man has tons of failed businesses, and filed bankruptcy 4 times in 25 years.
doesn't sound so great to me.
I truly think that his lack of knowledge on pretty much every issue, will be the ultimate determing factor.
Or, as Hawking said 'Trump bad man. Real bad"
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Post by redsnow on Jul 25, 2016 8:49:31 GMT -6
Tman, back on page 2, you said his platform is out.
Just for myself, Trump's: "I'm going to do great things", sounds a helluva lot better than Hillary's: "We're going to let things ride, and hope for the best, same as the last 8 years.
We're tired of the system, 70% of us are going to vote against the system, and Hillary is the system.
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Post by bblwi on Jul 25, 2016 11:59:02 GMT -6
There are a lot of GOP members that are hoping that if Trump wins that the real power for the politics will fall on Paul Ryan and Trump will mostly be the talking head he has been through the campaign. If you are that 70% for change then you endorse the GOP House's past decades of politics and how they work to stymie things. I am not a fan of most of what takes place in politics at the base core levels but Trump is being supported now mostly so that the GOP agenda can be moved forward. That is the way things work, either GOP or Dem but for those that say there will be a big change because of Trump are not living in a real world. He will only be able to get his political knowledge from those who are in the position to offer. I think the best thing that may have happened for the Dem's is to boot out Wasserman Schultz and move forward from there. Sanders may be the best thing that happened for the Dem's and the working class in decades and if he can help unify the Dem's the GOP has their hands full.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Jul 25, 2016 16:46:41 GMT -6
If the American public really wants change: Then vote the obstructionists OUT!
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Post by redsnow on Jul 25, 2016 16:57:12 GMT -6
Sounds like the DNC is starting out like a 3-Ring circus!
Also sounds like Bernie got the shaft! There goes 10% of the Dem's votes to Trump, he'll win BIG!
Honestly, I think Bernie would have had a better chance. Too late now.
Last I heard, Trump was up 5 points over Clinton.
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Post by redsnow on Jul 25, 2016 18:44:34 GMT -6
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Post by bblwi on Jul 25, 2016 21:42:10 GMT -6
It is standard to get a 3-7 point jump after the convention. We will see how it looks after the Dems are done. The evening DEM convention speakers have done well and it seems that having Bernie there may well give the Dems a bigger boost than not having him there. There has been a lot of discussion on the Dems part regarding their platform. At the GOP convention with Trump in the spotlight we never heard much about GOP platform stances. The one thing about "not knowing where you are going is that any road you take will get you there".
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Jul 26, 2016 0:08:00 GMT -6
"Last I heard, Trump was up 5 points over Clinton. "
The last election at the same time Romney was up in the polls over Obama as well. Polls at this stage really mean nothing, maybe they never mean anything lol
Very few of Bernie's supporters will vote for Trump since he's against everything they stand for, one said she "might" vote for an independent. Personally I was impressed with all the speeches tonight. Positive messages are so refreshing!
Cheers, Pam
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Post by redsnow on Jul 26, 2016 8:17:11 GMT -6
Just looking at the protesters, Bernie's folks are upset!
I read one thing, talking to Bernie supports, over 20% said they would absolutely NOT vote for Hillary. Bernie got the shaft by the "system", and Clinton is the system! Honestly, these latest dealings have hurt Clinton about as much as her own email deals. More crooked dealings! And folks are tired of it!
A vote for a 3rd party, is a wasted vote. I think you'll notice more: Anyone but Hillary.
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Post by redsnow on Jul 26, 2016 8:32:08 GMT -6
PHILADELPHIA — Bernie Sanders likes to boast that he has ignited a fiery movement.
At times on Monday, it seemed that even he had lost control of how it burns.
On the opening day of the Democratic National Convention, the ragtag coalition of liberals that Mr. Sanders is supposed to deliver to Hillary Clinton heckled from the convention floor. They marched in the streets. They protested outside the arena.
They refused to go quietly.
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They erupted into expletive-laden taunts of the party’s chairwoman, issued acid denunciations of Mrs. Clinton and, most vividly of all, offered a lukewarm and recalcitrant reaction to his prime-time endorsement of Mrs. Clinton. “Bernie for president!” a few shouted. “We are so disappointed!” a woman yelled.
For the Sanders faithful, piercing disappointment was the unmistakable theme of the day.
“Hell no, D.N.C.! We won’t vote for Hillary!” his supporters yelled to Democratic delegates as they walked into the convention hall on Monday night. “Lock her up!” they screamed from the streets.
Revolutions rarely end quietly. It was a lesson that Mr. Sanders seemed to absorb on live national television, with his face betraying surprise and his wagging finger pleading for peace, while his backers shouted over him at a Center City rally on Monday afternoon. “We want Bernie!” they screamed, when he explained his endorsement of Mrs. Clinton.
© Josh Haner/The New York Times Leesha Fagan, center, a Bernie Sanders delegate from Michigan, protested inside the Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia as Democrats began their convention. Mr. Sanders appealed for unity, mentioning Mrs. Clinton’s name 15 times in his speech late Monday, and declaring that “Hillary Clinton must become the next president of the United States.”
But his most loyal supporters were hungry for more combat.
“I’m booing now, and I’m going to boo for four more days,” said Jody Feldman, a delegate from California, as she sat on the convention floor.
Liz Maratea, 31, a delegate from New Jersey, said she refuses to lay down arms and accept Mrs. Clinton as the nominee. “She has the moral depth of a thimble,” Ms. Maratea said. “Are we supposed to take this, or are we supposed to rise up?”
Here in Philadelphia, it was the Sanders-inspired activists who seized the message and the megaphone of his self-proclaimed rebellion against money and power — and who decided that the man who had inspired their cause, and who adorned their T-shirts, was no longer their movement’s unchallenged leader.
“As beloved as Bernie is,” said Norman Solomon, a Sanders delegate from California, “he’s not running the show.”
Pressed on Monday morning whether Mr. Sanders could prevent delegates from staging disruptive demonstrations at the convention, Mr. Solomon, who was coordinating hundreds of fellow Sanders delegates, suggested the senator’s voice held no greater sway than anyone else’s.
“We will take that under advisement,” Mr. Solomon said, “as we would from any other source.”
Hours later, Mr. Sanders did just that, beseeching delegates in an urgent email not to endanger his reputation and theirs by booing or walking out on Mrs. Clinton and her allies on the convention floor.
“Our credibility as a movement will be damaged,” Mr. Sanders warned, adding: “That’s what Donald Trump wants. But that’s not what will expand the progressive movement in this country.”
Not all of his supporters complied.
The rejection of Mrs. Clinton inside the Wells Fargo Center was scattered but persistent. Those loyal to Mr. Sanders waved fists with thumbs turned down. They screamed “No” and “Nay.” They wore pins, stickers, shirts and hats bearing Mr. Sanders’s face. And they defaced Clinton signs that once read “Stronger Together,” transforming them into a different message: “Stop Her.”
In a way, the angry remnants of Mr. Sanders’s presidential campaign are not really about him anymore: They have become a stew of simmering grievances from the primaries about rules, process, money, fairness and democracy — and were reignited by leaked emails from the Democratic National Committee revealing the bias of some party officials in favor of Mrs. Clinton.
“He joined this party to bring about some serious change, and they have been playing him the entire time,” said Alec Mondello, a Sanders supporter who traveled here from El Paso, Tex., to see the senator’s campaign through to its bitter end.
But to Mrs. Clinton’s loyalists, who have waited years to crown her as the Democratic nominee, the repudiation by Mr. Sanders’s supporters was a painful and unexpected turn.
Michael Charney, a delegate from Ohio, was stunned when delegates backing Mr. Sanders broke out into boos at the mention of Mrs. Clinton’s name.
“I’m frustrated,” Mr. Charney said, “because I think it represents a mistaken political immaturity on how you make a political revolution.”
The defiant displays of disobedience revealed the fissures in Mr. Sanders’s movement, which has splintered into seemingly implacable camps. There are the true believers, who chant “Bernie or Bust.” There are disillusioned voters who are gravitating toward Mr. Trump. And there are pragmatists who have given up the fight and will back Mrs. Clinton.
Statistically, those who are prepared to embrace Mrs. Clinton are, by far, the largest group of Mr. Sanders’s supporters, pollsters have repeatedly found. But here at the convention, they are fighting to be heard over their angrier and louder peers, who are unwilling to fall in line.
Their distrust of Mrs. Clinton runs deep. Even if she wins, they already expect to be disappointed by her presidency. Rosario Dawson, an actress and a Sanders supporter, admonished fellow Democrats to watch a Clinton White House carefully for signs of betrayal on signature liberal issues like universal health care and a $15 federal minimum wage.
If not, she warned, “then civil disobedience will follow, because we are serious.”
But for delegates who have accepted Mr. Sanders’s defeat, the scenes of protest on the convention floor here were painful to watch. “They have to realize that the art of politics is compromise,” said Michael J. Schweinsburg, a delegate from New York who backed Mr. Sanders. “That is anathema to them.”
As tensions mounted, verbal skirmishes occasionally broke out on the floor. Inside the Wisconsin delegation, a Sanders supporter stood up with a piece of paper taped over her mouth. “Silenced,” read a message on the tape.
A fellow Wisconsin delegate, Nancy Kaplan, turned back and loudly scolded her.
“This woman has no idea what real oppression looks like,” Ms. Kaplan said. “It’s lovely when they cheer for Bernie. I think it’s inappropriate and rude when they boo.”
Over near the California delegation, Sue Savary, 69, made the mistake of referring to Sanders supporters around her as “kids.” At that, a younger delegate, Robert Shearer, 33, shot back, “Ageism sucks! You’re old. You shouldn’t be making decisions on our future.”
Throughout the day, amid chants and counterchants, flashes of fury and fevered attempts to tamp them down, Mr. Sanders’s loyalists proved wily foes to organizers seeking to protect Mrs. Clinton.
As the evening wore on, Mrs. Clinton’s supporters handed out signs, intended to paper over the divisions in the room, saying: “Love Trumps Hate.”
But a Sanders supporter, armed with a with a black Sharpie pen, rewrote it into a banner of protest. “Love Bernie,” said the vandalized version, “or Trump’s hate wins.”
To quiet the boos that erupted at almost every mention of their candidate’s name, Mrs. Clinton’s supporters tried screaming her name at a higher pitch. But the Sanders delegates kept finding ways to break through.
Their candidate may have asked them for quiet courtesy, but their anger was bigger than him now.
“He has to play nice,” said Kim Netherton, a delegate from Colorado, who booed Ms. Clinton from the floor. “but I don’t.”
Find out what you need to know about the 2016 presidential race today, and get politics news updates via Facebook, Twitter and the First Draft newsletter.
Looks to me like there are going to be quite a few Bernie supporters voting for Trump!
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Post by bblwi on Jul 26, 2016 16:53:38 GMT -6
Sure this was the last opportunity to show their support for Sanders and also their dismay with Clinton and or the DNC and if 20% of the Sanders supporters stay home then the alternative may well be worse than Clinton but that is their choice. I don't see many mid 20 year olds swinging from Sanders to Trump, they are much more likely to sit out the election than to vote for Trump. Those 18 to 30 are much more likely to be community based and relationship based than individual based which are GenXers and some Baby boomers. We see that in schools and in organizations etc. The fact that many of our younger voters are much less likely to be divisive, bigoted as to race, creed, religion etc. That to me is why Bernie has captured many of them as they see and feel the results of what functional illiteracy, hate and fear can do. Many have attended schools with single parent peers and peers in poverty etc. they know these things on a personal and not a political basis. They don't like to see the misfortunes of others be part of bashing and hate and over time the will have huge impacts on future elections and cultures. Bernie Sanders has created an interest for that age group that has not been a part of politics for a generation or more. The last time there was this much political activity by young adults it was the 60s and a lot of that turned into violence, this younger group shows a lot more maturity in how they work to get their message across. They may like the fact that Trump has been successful and he is confident but what they don't like is his constant berating of others to show his superiority. The older voters that support him like that as they need scapegoats for what they feel is all wrong with just about everything but them.
Bryce
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Post by redsnow on Jul 27, 2016 5:13:44 GMT -6
Hard to say!
With Bernie's folks chanting: Lock er up! And, Bernie or Bust! I don't see many of those folks voting for Clinton.
It's just another example of "Corrupt Clinton".
If these folks are more mature, more than likely they will vote. And most likely vote against Hillary.
I read story the other day, wasn't it the FBI that "warned" the DNC ? I'm not familiar with this Wasserman (sp) lady. But her career is shot!
Clinton is the "system", folks are tired of the system! We're tired of her "wrongs".
Sanders and his folks got the shaft. But if I'd be out yelling "Lock er up", here the first of August, I'm going to do everything I can between now and November, just to keep her out of office. I'm sure lots of Bernie's folks feel the same way.
Above someone said the RNC was a circus.
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Post by bblwi on Jul 27, 2016 9:11:24 GMT -6
I think the message Michelle Obama gave will win the support of the younger Sander Dem's more than Hilary or Trump. Michelle Obama may well hold the key to a centrist left social culture for the USA and if the younger voters buy into that message the fear mongering message of the social right elitist may well be dwindling more. We at this point now have an election that will be determined as much by how we plan to live in a global environment or fight in a global environment. Both campaigns are signaling modest to major changes in our world trade and that means to me the need to move funds by the end of the year. With the huge investment many USA conglomerates have made overseas and the banking system with a high dollar making huge profits those aspects of our wealth system may see some serious repositioning in the market.
How much cheaper today is it for Asia to buy commodities from South America then the USA? Ditto energy from Russia?
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Jul 27, 2016 13:58:54 GMT -6
"Sanders and his folks got the shaft."
Did they really? They just didn't get enough votes. Was that the DNC's fault? Maybe some folks in charge there didn't want Bernie to be the candidate, but did they do anything to try and stop him? Did they pay for negative ads or spread untrue rumors or lies about him? I sure never saw anything like that. If Bernie's supporters would actually vote for Trump, then they couldn't have been too serious about Bernie in the first place.
Ewwww here's a conspiracy theory, maybe some of Bernie's so-called supporters were really Trump supporters in disguise?
Cheers, Pam
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Post by musher on Jul 27, 2016 14:07:52 GMT -6
I cannot see a Bernie supporter voting for Trump. They will not vote or vote for an independent.
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Post by redsnow on Jul 27, 2016 17:32:08 GMT -6
Hard to say!
Friend is a hard core Democrat, union member, Sanders supporter, I can promise you now, he'll vote for Trump.
A vote for a 3rd party is pretty much a wasted vote! He'll do his best to vote against Clinton!
The man I'm thinking about is educated, and he will vote, and not for Clinton!
Pam, it kind of makes me wonder, when the chair-person of the DNC abruptly "retires", in shame! I suspect more dirty, shady dealings. Her career is trash!
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Post by trappnman on Jul 28, 2016 7:16:45 GMT -6
you need to watch, not read about it
the democrats are as united as they have ever been. Bernie did it exactly right- we got the most progressive platform ever, and over 90% of Bernies voters, will vote Hillary- and that's now- wait until the fall.
what a comparison between Cleveland and Phillie- in message, in actions, in enthusiasim
you should have seen Bloombergs speech last night- wow oh wow did he blow away Trumps business skill
the quality of speakers, the quality of their speeches- compare that to Chachie
when all the polls came in, Trump got NO bounce from his convention-
hard to think most than a handful of Bernie supporters will back trump- when the past 2 GOP presidents, the past 2 nominees, and rank and file cannot bring themselves to support him-
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