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Post by possumblaster on Mar 21, 2007 21:50:17 GMT -6
I use coyote urine at most of my canine sets-mostly as a very light cover scent,and I really don't know if it helps or not. I don't see many refusals or have any avoidance problems per se.What I would like to try is using urine from females and male pups at scent post sets.I think it would be very interesting to keep track of the results over a season to see how response would vary as far as what gender you could catch. I think it stands to reason that you may get fewer catches using older presumably dominant male urine at a set,possibly a higher catch rate from both genders at a set using solely female urine or pup urine. Seems like you could tear up those old dominant dogs by using a female's urine that is in heat when the urine was collected.I have seen some dramatic things making a scent trail with doe in heat urine on bucks over the years,and although coyotes don't seem to breed in the same fashion,as with humans, I just can't believe an old male can't be enticed into a set made by a new honed in the neighborhood.What do you think?Bob-any thoughts?
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Post by Possum on Mar 22, 2007 0:50:12 GMT -6
I don't know how much difference there is between pee from male,female,young or old. Probably some but I don't think it makes a difference. I think coyotes know the smell of the urine from other coyotes in the area and that's why they use it to mark territory. The point is, when you squirt urine from a "stranger" coyote, they are curious because suddenly there's a new dog in town and curious because they don't know exactly where it fits in the peck order. You go squirting fresh pee from the alpha male in a territory on your sets and the subservient coyotes will likely leave it alone for fear of getting their butt kicked by the big dog.
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Post by rk660 on Mar 22, 2007 1:12:25 GMT -6
Odon Corr says he always like urine from an adult male, as stronger. I suppose in ADC situations some of them guys when needing to get the last coyote, might use male/female depending on which one left. Probibly bladder urine from previous caught mate or pup has merit in those situations. Im just specualting, as im not by any means any kind of an ADC predator trapper. I'd like to hear from some of our ADC members on this subject. For fur trapper i doubt much real merit. Better just using fox for a week, switch to coyote , then cat, just a different type of urine probibly helps after a while to give them a new smell.
If one saved male/female separate, Ive often wonder after its aged and not a fresh product really anymore, could a given fox/coyote be able to even tell which sex, beings it has gone thru some changes from being a true fresh urine?
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 22, 2007 6:28:27 GMT -6
I don`t think any coyote could tell 1 year old coyote pee from say pee off a 5 year old coyote. I think they can tell male from female, but it makes no difference to them, even in heat. I think what they can tell is very strong pee ( meat fed ) from weak cerial fed and they can tell strange pee from a known regular in the area. I`ve said this before, eat nothing but meat for 48 hrs and smell you own pee. whew, smells like an old gorilla is butt rubbing your face boys. and the cerial pee, like the homely girl, no one notices. she walks by and is same as invisible. let mz. giant boob-a-rino walk by and get out of the way mama, you blocking my veiw! the in heat is a scam in my mind. A deer buck breeds every female he can find. fox and coyotes are pair maters, i.e. not like deer or people. so in the canine world an in heat female is just another intruder no different than a male or any other coyote. the reason in heat pee might be better is it is basically all january pee, less chance of dilution as the waters are always froze, i.e. no beer or coffee affect floooding the good stuff. as far as aged or fresh, I prefer aged over fresh. this is the third time I`ve mentioned this, but will once more. russ carmon wrote an excellent article on nothing but pee. you can get a free copoy of it from bill kasten , who frequents this site. I`d say a self addressed stamped envelope to bill would be appropriate. I don`t think there is a soul past the "300 miles" that would question russ` knowledge and opinion. lol, couldn`t resist.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 22, 2007 6:31:03 GMT -6
My observations have mirrored Bobs.
I have though, often wondered if just MORNING urine would be better.
I've noticed with hounds, that the first pee in the morning is the strongest smelling by far- also deepest color, etc.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Mar 22, 2007 6:56:44 GMT -6
Collected red bladder pee from a whitetail doe one time. Thought I had the secret weapon. Used it in many set ups, scrapes, and times of year, the results were less than expected. If I get the chance I will try again. Pap swears by that stuff, I swore at it.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 22, 2007 7:02:09 GMT -6
It would make sense morning HUMAN pee would be stronger, maybe wild animal evening pee. but who is collecting pee based on time of day? here`s a funny, I read on the above post "pap swears "and my mind read pap smears, you know what a woman has done at the gynecologist annual ck. up. must be how every one in ks sees bobcats with 4 foot long tails.
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Post by possumblaster on Mar 22, 2007 21:41:18 GMT -6
O.K. Here's what I've gotten so far-gender probably not important.The in heat deal won't work because coyotes(and most other animals) have higher moral standards than humans,subordinate animals don't seem to matter.Strictly an intrusion of territory.We have a few (very few) bobcats around here and I would like to try some cat urine, but with my luck I would catch one and collect myself a handsome fine from dnr.As far as the fox urine, I have tried it and my catch rate falls through the floor. Maybe it is the urine,maybe something I'm doing....
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 23, 2007 5:53:46 GMT -6
do you know the difference in good pee or not? get that pamphlet carmon wrote. I`m of the opinion 90% of the pee marketed today is not pee, or not decent pee. not what carmon describes as good, or what I would call good. collecting meat fed winter pee is something fox ranchers don`t/won`t do ,and collecting pee on it`s own merits alone costs more thsn it sells for. for me it is a side job of the live market. when the live market goes, the pee collection goes too.
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Post by billkasten on Mar 23, 2007 7:17:41 GMT -6
;D LMAO bob 300 miles . I've got to go to the printer's again ! If your content using cheap urine then buy it . If you want the good stuff then you'll have to pay, I'm not saying Bob is the only one collecting urine the right way but there aren't many that do and I know for a fact that bad urine can shut your line down .
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Post by k9 on Mar 23, 2007 7:40:14 GMT -6
Bill I am not sure I have seen this Carmen article. I collect my own urine but am still very interested in seeing it for reference. Is it something you can scan and post here? Otherwise could you post your address on here or send it to me via PM? Thanks
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Post by Steve Gappa on Mar 23, 2007 7:47:21 GMT -6
I guess I've never had urine bad enough to shut down my line.
BUT- I never bought any urine till the early 80s- so maybe the earlier stuff was junk.
I've bought lures from many, many places - and it always seems to be about the same.
I hear dark urine is best, light urine is no good> All urine I ever had- in a month you dark urine if it was gold when you bought it.
I do think urine use is overrated- not so much the use, but what it's properties. The reason a dog marks its territory frequently- is because urine quickly dissipates and looses any real qualities. Pee is pee after a day or two.
people ask me if I like coyote over fox- and I see no difference. yes, perhaps an old wiley one, of course coyote better on a turd or some such- but for the majority.
BUT- what do I know. I sell urine, and if my costumers want good winter, meat fed urine- thats what I'll offer.
This year I'll again be selling Wheelie's urine (you always have to type that fast and move on..it just doesn't seem right)
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Post by billkasten on Mar 23, 2007 7:56:32 GMT -6
Just some more thoughts on this issue. If you have a large consintration of an animal in your area you are luckey .Here in northeast Pa. We have very few fox as compared with some other areas.When animal populations get low they get fussy real fussy about what there willing to aproach .When populations are high they seem to be easyer to catch. Take a dog as an example one dog will bearly clean his dish but put two together and look out its a wonder they don't eat the dish . Most of us live and trap in marginal areas were the population is low at best . So to me it stands to reason that I want to use lures and urines that will attract not only the bold and aggressive animals but also the more shy ones as well. Russ Carman is my neigbor and friend and one heck of a lure maker . Poeple ask me when I'm going to start making lure ,my answer is always the same,Why would I ? Surely not to make a living ! Icould come up with some good lures myself but they would never match Russ's . Now don't get me wrong I'm sure other lures are good maybe better maybe not. From what I've seen and used I'll keep using Bob's pee and Russ's lure till its unavileable . IMHO
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Post by billkasten on Mar 23, 2007 8:02:19 GMT -6
Anyone wanting the urine pamphlet just send a self addressed envelope to me at Bill Kasten , RR2 Box 2287,Hallstead,Pa.18822 .I will get them printed this week some time. Thank you.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 23, 2007 8:20:14 GMT -6
tman, I`m going to ask you use a pint of wheelies or my pee either one, with no other lure or bait at all. dirtholes, flats, I don`t care. then you will see the value of urine. now you want a better deal yet? take that pee from wheelie or me either one and freeze it and throw away the top 80% that freezes and use only the bottom20%. just overnight in the freezer, not 50 below to freeze the whole dang thing. just a drop or two. watch the digging responce and catch rate. that will change your tune on pee is pee and never saw the need for it. straight up, 90% of trappers havn`t the foggiest what good pee is either, why they buy the yewllow cheap stuff from the summer ranch fox. ask them how many they catch too. slim to none, maybe 100 if in psb`s 1,000 country, but any way you stack it, way less than their potential if they would just wise up. you might just decide you don`t need lure or bait . but that would be an error too. now don`t try it with that banana lemonaide squeezings stuff, or the black sewer smelling stuff ( not ammonia-thats cool, what I mean is smells like sewer chit, septic tank, pig pit pumpings, jo mamas breath type stuff) and tell me it didn`t work, I know that already.
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Post by Bob Jameson on Mar 23, 2007 8:26:04 GMT -6
There are still a few people collecting good urine out there. You just need to find them or find the retailers that are selling that urine or know that person you are purchasing from has rigid controls on what he buys and sells. Some just buy and sell based on price alone.
I have found that some of the higher quality urines are being sold by the guys usually that have a very limited quantity also for the most part. That allows them to still have quality control that some others let slip by due to a basic human trait such as laziness over time.
There is no doubt a percentage of the volume producers have poor quality urine primarily due to not so much the diet at times as that will affect the odor, colorand quality ,but the cleanliness of their pens and collection trays and trunk run lines that flow into their collection buckets or barrels. A little house cleaning will do a world of wonders for good clean urine. It will keep a urine as good as it can be whether seasonal meat feeding or pellet fed.
Many can up the quality of their urine by just being more attentive to their operation. But as is with many occupations some get complacent and just dont maintain good standards.
I have seen several operations in my days and I know the conditions of those big operations at least duing my brief visit. The small operators for the most part seems to more attentive with their setups with respects to cleanliness and the quality of urine that they produce.
I collected urine for many years during the fox years in my area and know the work and time involved to keep your system clean to yield a high quality product. Some think they are clean when they are only fooling them selves.Its a job to say the least and I know it isnt difficult for some to get careless and push highly contaminated urine through as saleable material.
The sad part is the avg. guy cant tell the difference until the urine has set in the jug for a while or has some carry over from a prior season. You will see the staining in the jug and the odor will change drastically to a sew water smell almost as a result of bacteria, fecal material, blood, food particles and a host of other organic elements that the urine picked up as it flowed through the cage floor wire.
The best advice I can give anyone with urine is this. Whom ever you buy from I to this day make it a practice to strain all my urine upon pick up regardless of whom I bought it from. It takes time and a little investment of dollars at time if I feel the need to preserve a large volume to protect against any probable bacteria in that urine or that I feel may not sell out the first season.
I use a paint strainer first to take out the larger particulate and a milk filter or similiar type filter that will remove the smaller particles in the urine. Rinse / and wash the orginal jug clean then restore your urine to that jug.
The addition of a heaping tablespoon of sodium benzoate per gallon will help alot with continued bacteria development. Shake briefly and periodically and this will make that product as good as it can be and hold it as long as you still have it.Some use a few ozs. of glycol as a mild preservative. However glycol is not a powerful preservative at best.
Good urine will stay good for many years as I have found. But contamination elements within the urine will in time devalue the quality and effectiveness of that urine.
Another problem that I have found is urine dilution that is being practiced with some producers to extend their profits.One never really knows how wide spread of an issue this is but it does occur as I have heard talk of thisand have purchased urine that I suspected as being diluted. Depending on the dilution rate it can be difficut if not impossible for the consumer to detect.
You will find some interesting things in bulk urine purchases in drums and such. Dead mice, cigarette butts, seeds and some unidentifiable elements to name a few. Settling of solids in urine is common in most urines especially after it has set for a while. I now siphonmy drums. It is commonly referred to as racking in the wine makers circles. I have a syphon which is suspended from touching and making contact with the bottom of the container.This elimanates to a great percentage the pickup of the solids that have dropped out of the urine and settled on the bottom of drums and barrels.
Clean, well collected urine will still have solids drop out over time however this is a natural occurance and is expected. These solids do not represent contamination in good urine. Human urine has the same settling .
In fact if you know you have good urine it is a good practice to shake the container to resuspend the solids back into the urine volume, then apply or rebottle.This particulate will aide in holding aand leave trace urine odor at a set.
Bob W has a good product for those that have not used it and one of a few who still offers good quality in urine.
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Post by wheelie on Mar 23, 2007 8:27:17 GMT -6
This pee talk is always a good read.......
Bill, I think I had a "Pee Pamplet" that I got from you at FTA Evensville, but have since lost the sucker.... I remember reading it in the tent before night, night time and thought "This is GREAT info". A must read and people should have to pay for that info as it is straight talk from a NO bs guy that will help you understand what the hell is happing on your line.
I'll get another copy from you at the conventions......save one for me.
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Post by k9 on Mar 23, 2007 8:28:04 GMT -6
Bill are you going to have any copying expenses, etc?
Bob I have taken your advice when feeding a penned coyote, etc. I feed some deer meat, but am careful not to just feed deer to them. I mix it up and give them rabbits with the guts in, etc. I think I understand that this is for the general health of the canine, not for the actual quality of the urine.
I do not understand how some of these fox farmers can feed cereal type feeds to thier foxes, without binding them up something terrible. What gives?
Do different types of meat fed to canines effect the urine in any way?
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 23, 2007 9:03:24 GMT -6
hi lysine corn is 10% protein, just not the same kind of protein as in meatr . but it will raise a fox pelt. and produce a low quality pee for trapping use.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Mar 23, 2007 9:08:43 GMT -6
Bob- I don't say I don't feel the need for urine- I use lots of it- but I haven't seen that one urine does better for me, then others..
I know urine works alone.
but as I said- maybe I've always gotten good urine?
never tried the freezing bit- unless half frozen pee in a bottle counts LOL. But will try it.
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