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Post by robertw on Mar 25, 2007 13:24:02 GMT -6
Bob, Most people don't appreciate things until they have learned something the hard way (I'm a good example!) You've spent a lifetime learning some of that stuff and shed more than a little blood doing it...Nothing wrong with sharing things but...sometimes you share to much.
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Post by coyotewhisperer on Mar 25, 2007 13:24:55 GMT -6
Bob If I'm adding a little benzoate as I add to the gallon of pee will the blood still ruin it? I feed whole rabbits, chickens roadkill deer etc. I know some blood gets in but it still smells good to me as long as I keep adding a little benzoate it seems fine. I was gonna offer some for the Auction but after reading this don't know if its good enough. I doubt mine is close to as clean to yours but it is the real deal I don't know I catch coyotes with it.
Jeff
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Post by robertw on Mar 25, 2007 13:34:45 GMT -6
Concerning the price of urine.....Lure prices have all went up the last year or two, why hasn't urine follwed?
I know what I would pay for good urine...and really do not believe $50 a gallon for good urine is to expensive IF I AM COMFORTABLE WITH HOW IT WAS COLLECTED.
I guess it is just the mindset of Trappers, we all give $50 a gallon for bait but not for urine?
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Post by trappnman on Mar 25, 2007 13:45:32 GMT -6
Robert- no problems mate- I'll sell you all the urine you want for $50 gal... and it will be good stuff..
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Post by k9 on Mar 25, 2007 13:48:35 GMT -6
I had a penned fox up until my in laws sold the farm. I can keep one legal if bought from a rancher. I can keep a wild fox or coyote alive legal during the same time frames I can keep a pelt legal. There is a loophole that allows such a thing here in Iowa, as long as I am not a game breeder. So I keep an early wild fox or too, let them prime up, collect urine, and pelt them at the end of season. Too stinky to have one here in town year around anyway. I like the smell, my nieghbors wouldn't. Same with coyotes. Keep one or two, let them prime, pelt themout. Urine is only good through that time frame anyway, I have plenty of stuff to feed them from incidentals on my line, and it gives me enough urine to serve my needs.
I do miss having a few pairs of fox around. I really like them and if I move out into the rural, I will have a couple just because.
I am still wondering how some of these guys feed cerial without having them bind up and blow thier rear ends out. Even with plenty of water I would think that would be an issue for fox.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 25, 2007 14:17:58 GMT -6
tman, I have a facility large enough that I could collect triple the pee I do, but the economics of what a trapper will pay for it makes it unfeasable. cost( and avalability) of rats, freezers, competition of junk yellow see thru pee. ther good pee market is very solid, but also very limited. I trap little fur for the same reasons. cost of production exceeds value. good pee is the same way if it had to stand alone and not as a sideline of the live mkt. no way could I collect and sell it for what I do without a live mkt. in fact wouldn`t do it for twice the price due to the smell, tieing one down, hassles , expense etc etc. it would be stupid, why no one else does it. wheelies pee operation is a sideline of the live mkt too ,and I know of NO ONE meat feeding large numbers of animals for wholesale, or for that matter retail either, where the pee biz will stand on it`s own merits . I laughed at thread on another site where a guy is asking where can he get meat fed pee. several answered where they got the see thru bannana stuff, as if they were answering his question! jeff, if winter collected, I`m sure your pee is plenty good. you wqant to know what hassles are, keep 80 head of live coyotes and several hundred head of red fox and try to find 400 rat carcases daily to feed them and a way to store 10,000 carcases and a source and a way to get them to you. and that is just for 25 days and thenb you need 10,000 more every 25 days after that for 5 months. see, you do the math and it comes up unreal. once we had 460 live wild red fox in cages at one time, all fresh. I swore I would never do that again , and havn`t. it`s just 1-2-3 economics. like any other business venture.
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Post by z on Mar 25, 2007 15:01:50 GMT -6
Already done it Bob, Saved about the last quart of urine in the bucket. In a quart squirt bottle their is roughly 1/4" of settled salts.... Very stout chit....
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Post by wheelie on Mar 26, 2007 6:03:49 GMT -6
Bob, Nothing wrong with sharing things but...sometimes you share to much. Yeh, Bob........you givin the secrets away. And people say that there are no more secrets.........well listen up and he'll tell you them.....hehe But like you say......to much work for the normal guy and no $ in it even as a by-product. It is neat to know(and makes you feel good) to collect and offer some of the best pee, but it stops there........the hard work, labor day after day, (meat) feed,clean,water,(meat)feed clean,water for little return (actually, probably a negative) is something only a crazed person would do......lol..........mix it up with the live market and its okay, but doubles...umm, I mean, tripples a nites work...... Plan on spending all of your nites in your pole barn through collecting season, while your family is nice and warm watching the Simpsons and are in bed asleep by the time you walk in the door and then are ashamed to even slip between the covers as you stink like a yotes as..........
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 26, 2007 6:30:17 GMT -6
I`ve more than once got that , bluyilck, you stink, don`t touch me, even after a hot bath and thorough scrubbing with the fingernail brush. wheelie, I`m retiring from the pee biz soon, maybe next year , maybe 2-3 years. but it won`t be much longer. I just am not starving anymore and do it more for the same reason country buyers buy or trappers trap- it`s just what we do and hard to give it up, even with no $ in it. the whole show is almost history even now. I`m figuring on selling you my trailor and cage set up and everything. serious, think it over. I`ll even hook you up with the ranchers.
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Post by robertw on Mar 26, 2007 7:37:05 GMT -6
Bob, Wheelie & others,
I think you guys are missing the boat on the pricing of your urine. There are so many states that have regulations so restrictive regarding confinement standards of these animals that most of us can not efficiently or legally collect urine.
I really think that if you guys got together you could set the price on coyote urine. Maybe not on fox urine because of the fox farmers but definitely on coyote urine! Trappers give $50 a gallon for GOOD bait, I think they would pay $50 retail a gallon for GOOD coyote urine, especially if the trappers knew and respected who collected it.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 26, 2007 8:02:14 GMT -6
I`m raising whole sale $2 /gallon this year just to reflect fuel costs driving to pick up meat. but that is just an inflation thing. probably tthe last year I`m in it I`ll raise way up and then figure I don`rt care, it keeps and being trhe last year I`ll have the rest of my life to move it. untill trappers IN NUMBERS realize the see thru banana yellow stuff isn`t the real deal, the demand for good stuff, while strong ,will remain limited. I see it advertized for less than my cost for meat alone, let alone everything else, so I KNOW it is watered or b.s. of some type. but that is what the majority of the public wants and buys. Of course they dont catch much, but by golly they caught nothing cheap! in defwnse of those selling it, they havn`t a clue it isn`t much account. I don`t think they are necesarilly crooks, just not very knowledgable trappers that turned into dealers that know cheap sells. it`s kind of like calling all the shoe stores and asking each one how much are size 8`s? then ordering from who ever is the cheapest . you can`t complain when the buck 99 shoes are chinese flip flops. in fact if you peruse most dealer catalogs they specialize in the cheapest goods moiney can buy, and I don`t mean cheap for the quality, I mean just cheap. but that is what the customers want, cheap cheap cheap with basically no regard to value, just cheap. there is no doubt in my mind I could cutr my pee 50% with water and sell 10 times as much. or lower the price and make fake pee out opf tea, ammonia and a few drops of skunk essence/gallon and sell 10 times as much. no doubt in my mind at all.
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Post by wheelie on Mar 26, 2007 8:42:42 GMT -6
Cutting the pee with water is a no good dirty trick.....I know bob don't do it and neither do I (because I learned from Bob and hoped to make a product as good, if I followed the guildlines, and one guildline was no no on water, along with other things).....sell a pure product and hope the dealer gives you a thank you is all one can ask...... What happens after that is up to the dealer.... I collected 55 gal. of yote pee this year that I would consider useing on my line and is what went forsale.......the collection was down for me because I missed a month with family issues.......55 Gal.....thats it..... Bob has a much bigger operation and holds more critters than me so I'm sure he had a much higher volume, but know for a fact.....I could cut with water and have a 100 gal and double the $......but won't do it....... All I ask is a thank you at sellin time, maybe even a pat on the back.....and hope it does somebody some good.....while i stink like a yotes as...lol
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Post by wheelie on Mar 26, 2007 9:23:59 GMT -6
Bob, Wheelie & others, Trappers give $50 a gallon for GOOD bait, I think they would pay $50 retail a gallon for GOOD coyote urine, especially if the trappers knew and respected who collected it. Robert, you know the true value (of the good stuff) along with "some" others, but it would be such a limited market.... The masses don't care and are un-educated about it....even when you take the time to explain, they still don't get it........ The "I catch fox with the yellow pee I'm useing" is the standard reply when you get in a urine debate over the internet about meat fed, winter Vs. dogfood fed, summer collected. I'm to the point where I won't respond to a pee post anymore because it don't matter. I saw the post also about "Where to get pee" the other day .....I almost replyed......not to do a sales pitch for mine (as am sold out), but to give them some of my thoughts.......wrote something out, but pushed the delete button....... Been down that road and most don't have a clue, but are the "experts"...lol..and will tell you that your the dumb butt...lol
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Post by romans117 on Mar 26, 2007 9:35:15 GMT -6
I know this is a coyote thread, but how does all this relate to cat pee.
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Post by robertw on Mar 26, 2007 9:47:15 GMT -6
romans117;" but how does all this relate to cat pee."
Well....My personal experience is that GOOD commercial cat urine doesn't exist, if it does...I haven't found it.
I do purchase bobcat urine each year but...I am dumping freesh urine in from the cats that I catch as soon as possible....Some years I end up with a surplus of cat urine and some years I don't.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 26, 2007 10:55:54 GMT -6
I would mirror roberts thoughts. I had to bring home 18 cats live one year to get good pee, as I ordered from numerous sources and was assured winter collected meat fed etc etc, and of course none of it was. actually I did find 2 sources, one guy in ks("mutt") that since divorced and in iraq now,and another guy that doesn`t do it anymore. most everyone(dealers) buys it from xxxxxxx fur farm at a price I KNOW is too good to be true, beings I`ve collected off cats before and know their production level. they(xxxxxxx) feed heavy on poultry, which makes a poor pee in the winter and sewer in the summer. if there is any other source out there, like robert, I coulodn`t find it. the 18 cats was a nightmare paperwork etc due to cites tags , and will never do it again, but I got enough to last me for life and none extra to sell. now here is a trick that shouild save you ever having to buy pee. when you catch a cat, put him live in a box trap overnight and he won`t pee . kill him the next day and he`ll have a bladder as big as a softball, maybe a pint even.
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Post by romans117 on Mar 26, 2007 11:47:15 GMT -6
Thanks Bob and Bob, On yotes, I have cut them open to get the bladder like on a cat, but have not gotten one drop of urine from the bladder on a yote. I skinned close to fifty this year. Cats usually have urine in the bladder. Out of fifty yotes nada. Why is that?
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Post by robertw on Mar 26, 2007 12:06:20 GMT -6
They are scared at the set when the trapper approaches them they dump their bladders.
You will have much better success collecting bladder urine from coyotes that are called and shot than from trapped coyotes. Coyotes killed in kill snares often have full bladders as well.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 26, 2007 15:56:00 GMT -6
It all depends on who you are selling urine too . You can get 75-125 a gallon on fox or coyote pee in the right market, but not in the trapper market for sure. Too many other things to use and still catch the coyote. Is urine a benefit in certain situations? Yes Is it mandatory for catching coyotes? NO. The trapper market will bear only so much in increased cost before you will see either cheaper competition and/ or reduced sales. I can tell you Dirk Millers urines both coyote and cat are top notch as well.
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Post by Wiley on Mar 26, 2007 16:09:07 GMT -6
The in-heat urine is a farse. Estrogen hormones are so volatile that they cannot be held in urine. "In - heat" is a scam.
The value of urine at a set is extremely subjective when you consider the salt attraction to non targets particularly porcupines, rabbits, and deer all attracted to the salt. Where and and when you use urine is imperative to it's value. I'll put location and a good bait over urine in most situations WITH NON TARGETS. There is certainly value in urine but that value has to overshadow the detriment of non target attraction. Porcupines are salt crazy.
As far as Old Dog Coyote urine scaring submissive coyotes, have you ever seen a small dog fear pissing where a bigger dog peed before him? They all piss on the same hydrants. Canines are canines whether it's wolves, dogs, or coyotes.
As far as those who would lead you to believe they are "self made men" schooled ONLY from the school of hard knocks, no man is an island that has ever read a book, read posts on the internet, attended a demo, or purchased a dvd or video. Self made trappers do not exist.
Sure, there is things that many experienced trappers have learned through hard knocks, such as Bob's experience with urine, and many trappers lead to the same conclusions through their experiences but everyone has learned something from someone else.
~SH~
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