Call lures

[trappnman]

I first met stef when we debated call lures years ago. We were debating semantics, and both believe the same...that lures belong DOWN the hole.

So- to me, when I use a call lure- its still down the hole. I never put a lure (not counting visuals) away fro mthe hole.

I figure- if a lure is good enough to call a canine- I want it to bring his nose to MY set..not a tree 20 feet away.

Yo uagree? Disgree? Sometimes?

[Stef]

I agree

Stef

[dj88ryr]

Always DOWN the hole, but will intersect a nearby trail with a mist from the urine bottle, to direct them to the set if I feel it is needed, but then your right, I want there attention on whats in the hole and their foot on the pan to get to it.

[coydog]

Last season I tried to shy from using urine, so instead of urine, I would dab a little LDC on a stick and brush it (normally where the urine went) on my backing, all over it, but I didnt use much. Then on my attractor I would put a nice gob of a mild castory lure on my attractor. Lets just say I really was impresses with the results.
Same combo at remakes no urine, no gland.
So which one was the key,. I believe it was the combo. I lured some sets with just one or the other and they couldnt compete.
I dont necessarily believe all lure needs to be in the hole, but it should be on the backing or above the set, with a different lure on the attractor.
2cents

[tim125]

this can be debated in depth- i depends on the nose punching power of the call lure-

[Stef]

this can be debated in depth- i depends on the nose punching power of the call lure

Still like it down the hole as my primary attractor.

Stef

[Zagman]

Years ago, at a convention, Ronny and Pete Leggett were giving a demo....

Pete was talking about this very thing, putting any and all lure DOWN the hole/at the set...."If it's good enough to call him to the set, it's good enough to put down the hole", he would say.

Someone in the crowd asked about putting the lure up on a fence post or up on a tree....

In classic Pete Leggett style where everything boils down to a simple, common sense approach, he says back,

"Why would you put it in a tree? Are you trying to catch a bird?"

Everyone laughed and he got his point across without embarassing the person asking......

I used to put my real skunky, loud stuff up and away from the set....."fear or rolling and trash", which I probably got out of a book or something....

Now, everything is at the set, and I see no increase in trash or rolling......

And, it's faster!

Zags

[Maineman]

OK, I'll be odd man out on this one...If the intent of a call lure is truely to CALLa K9 to a set...Where would be the best place to gain full advantage of the lure? My thoughts have always been up a little, as to take advantage of the wind...

In late winter I'll use skunk essence placed up in a bush, between 2 dirtholes with nothing but urine down the hole...For me, I know what I like down the hole to catch them, (and it's not the call-lure)

I turn to a call lure simply for an edge to get them to it...just my 2 cents...

Dave Z

[Maineman]

Now, with that said, I have used Loud lures down the hole like "Canine-call" but consider this more a lure...

I guess it comes down to interpretation...

[CoonDuke]

Good call lures belong in the hole. Ones that don't provoke a good reaction don't belong in my lure bag.

If I need to call a fox where I want him, I'll throw a dead fox carcass in the weeds upwind of the set. Much louder than a call lure anyway.

[Zagman]

Maineman: I would consider Canine Call, without question, a loud, skunky call lure. I think it is even advertised that way. Heck, I bet if you made a post asking which call lure has sold the most ounces, it would be that one.....

I think we, as humans, for the most part really dont understand how scent works and dissipates.....

If momma is baking a pie in the kitchen, I dont care if it's sitting on the counter or on top of the fridge to cool, I will be bird-dogging into the kitchen, as I will smell it regardless.....and I will be making a kickback on the linoleum, I betcha.

As I try new things, including putting everything in the hole, my catch continues to climb every year (except last!) This was something I changed, by putting everything down the hole.....

My point was that I dont see where it hurts by doing so......I think either method is fine, and as in all things in trapping, if it works for you, then that's all that matters......

I would not hesitate to switch back, but see no reason to.

Something to think about......a bowhunter gets up in a tree to keep his scent up high and off the ground.....maybe if you put your lure TOO high, it COULD go over a canines head, depending on the wind at that moment when the canine is coming by?

I know scent molecules STICK to the ground as well.....so maybe you'd be ok....

Just rambling.....

Zags

[trappnman]

Good posts- and it brings up the question how does scent move? What are its properties?

A lure put up high, tends to disipitate into the air a little quicker. It might indeed spread out further- but certainly less intense and less....pinpointed.

When odors travel, not only do they ride air molecules, they also cling to stuff- grass, dirt, rocks..

And what they are doing- is leaving a scent trail. Dogs actually scent many types of scent from game- but react to it in 2 ways- using their nose down at the ground...and having their noses up in the air.

When a dog first winds a rabbit lets say- his nose is often high, and he moves quickly, changing direction radidly trying to pinpoint the odor. If this is unsucessful, he quickly drops his nose to the ground and starts searching there. Scent trails hold and are easier to follow if on the ground- for a canine anyhoo.

So- a lure that starts out on the ground, keeps a lot of its molecules at the ground- leaving a trail so to speak back to the hole...thats how canines find and work sets.

So while a airborne lure (and a good call lure down the hole will also be airborne and ride the wind- thats why in multiple based lures- certain ingreidients do certian things) might reach out "further", does that reaching out do any good?

Back to the airborne qualities- one reason skunk is used in many is its carrying ability- so with other ingriedients getting a "free ride", a good call lure down the hole probably reaches out just as far- and still leaves a ground trail- then a lure up high.

[CoonDuke]

Barometric pressure, humidity, and wind currents effect odor movement so much I can't even venture a guess how they would travel. Toooo many variables.

I know sometimes if I smoke in my shop, the "blanket" of smoke will be at certain heights. Sometimes the smoke will never travel above 5 feet and just hover there.

[Deadfall_Paul]

Just my opinion but if your location is right the animal is going to be in the vicinity isn't it?

I use to follow the old trapping books advice and put call lure up about 2 - 3 feet on a thistle or teasel weed to "pull" them fox in from "far distances" as per the advertisements.

Got to thinking,watch a dog and see if he needs to have a scent up off the ground to call him over.

If that fox/'yote is cruising by he is going to get a whiff from my lure in the hole and be pulled over to investigate.

My take on it anyhow.

Paul

[Maineman]

OK, no arguments here on how air currents travel...I think we're talking the same thing here...Lures I uses to catch k9's go down the hole, including canine-call...I was refering more to those things that I use strictly to "CALL"...(if that makes sence)...

The only one that I really use for this is the skunk essence mixed into a rendered skunk fat...Could this catch K9's??? I Don't know because I've never put it down a hole...Maybe it dosn't even call them and I would have caught the fox anyway but it's something I do when the temperatures drop below 20 at some locations...I think the other reason I do this is because when it "IS" this cold, it's often late in the season and I've switched to a gland lure to take advantage of wandering fox looking for mates...My gland lures tend to be much milder (Less draw) than my curiosity, call, and food type lures...

I know my reasoning but am I making any sence putting it into words?

[trappnman]

Yep!

[CoonDuke]

Something I was thinking about the other day.

How about urine as a call lure?? I know I can be walking in the woods while rabbit hunting, or even driving down a trail on an ATV, and get a whiff of something and right away I know...RED FOX!

A lot of guys consider urine mild but to me it is pretty strong stuff. The problem lies is that it is not very durable but it can be doctored to make it last.

A subtle set combined with a big @ss visual soaked in urine would have pretty good calling power I assume...both in odor and sight. Heck, it would be worthwhile to put a trap at the urine station as well. Could be the second set at a double set location.

[Deadfall_Paul]

CoonDuke,

Urine works for me.

I almost always put in a post or flat set just using a little urine along with a dirthole and about 6 - 8 feet out from it.

Esp early on when there are a lot of pups.
Makes for a lot of bonus doubles or even triples some times.

It lasts a lot longer than you would think.

Paul

[JLDakota]

I spent a significant part of my life training, trialing, judging and hunting bird dogs. Most of my opinions dealing with the trapping of canines and lures have root in what I observed in how pointing dogs of various breeds handled scent on the various bird species depending on the variety of conditions they were presented with. I believe that a call lure up higher will in fact give the canine the first clue that there's something upwind he should be interested in. Many of the choke bore nosed English pointers and setters, (as well as individuals of other breeds) are able to run head high at 3/4 throttle sifting the air currents for the "call lure" that tells them to fine tune their search pattern to a particular area. Those with lesser noses and those breeds with hound in their background often move at slower speed and have a tendency to put their heads down and work ground scent. Both often find the bird but the critters using the air currents know the rich target environment exists before the foot trackers.

I expect the coyote and fox have through the evolution of the species, noses equal to if not better then the best noses in the bird dogs I have observed and therefore it is my theory that a call lure higher helps stack the odds in the trappers favor by putting interesting molecules on the air currents. To me, much of the refusal by many to use call lures higher up is an ego thing which is supposed to some how insinuate they are a better trapper (got the location thing down pat) or have better lure and therefore can get the job done with "one arm tied behind their back". I talked with Pete Leggett on the topic and have used several bottles of his lure. Pete and Ron, as do most accomplished trappers, push location (and rightfully so) and feel if you are on location, down the hole is all you need with their lure. IMO, the more things I can do to stack the odds in my favor in getting any land or water animal in the desired vicinity to step on my pan, I will do. Sorry for the length of the post. Jim

[Deadfall_Paul]

JLDakota,

I respect your veiwpoint on this matter but that doesn't have to mean I agree with you.

If you have read all the posts on this topic you will see I stated that it was...

"Just my opinion but if your location is right the animal is going to be in the vicinity isn't it?"

Now I read from you that...

"To me, much of the refusal by many to use call lures higher up is an ego thing which is supposed to some how insinuate they are a better trapper (got the location thing down pat)"

This implies that I think I am a better trapper and I have this large ego which tells me so.

This is by no way a true judgement on your part as I did say it was just my opinion and what works for you is fine.

As a trapper as well as in many other areas I have a lot to learn and hope I can always continue to learn and in no way do I believe I have it all "down pat"".

What you believe is just that, your opinion, and does not justify your making such rash statements and judgements of others.

I still am of the strong opinion that unless you are trapping in an area where the animals are you aren't going to invite them over nor are you going to call them from a great distance.

Thank you for you input on this and I do respect your opinion.

Paul