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Post by trappnman on Jul 15, 2004 12:48:07 GMT -6
Jl- sure, bird dogs have adequete noses -- but nothing like a hounds or I suspect no much like a wild canines. Just as a point of interest, did you know (results of a Logan study, take it as you will) that coyotes locate more prey by SIGHT rather than nose. So- in one way, your thought of head high hunting is probably correct- which is why long distance visuals work. But once again- are you telling me that you believe a good skunky type of call lure used at the hole will NOT be taken on air current and "call" in canines? We know it does- we ourselves can smell skunky lues away from the set. I am of the strong belief that a good lure DOWN the hole will actually "call" in more canines than lure up high. Cause it still comes down to 2 things- 1) high up scents do get transported more by currents- but also disipate quicker and more importantly, do not provide a terristrial trail back to the set. Note the discussion on wolves- wasn't the point thay the tasted and touched areas to determine prey condition, location. NOT picking it up from air borne scent. and 2) why would you want the canines nose away from the scent? Its not as if you are calling coyotes from 100s of miles away with 5 drops of skunk essense. We discussed this before- most people felt a lures effectiveness was limited to under 100 feet. So- since most coyote trappers trap where there are coyotes....putting their (my) sets where coyotes will discover them...is simply not a problem. Now- JL- I'm disappointed in this- To me, much of the refusal by many to use call lures higher up is an ego thing which is supposed to some how insinuate they are a better trapper (got the location thing down pat) or have better lure and therefore can get the job done with "one arm tied behind their back".Why or how can you say this? If anything- and I am not advocating this view point- trappers who BELIEVE a lure can be placed high up and call canines for long distances- is an ego thing- "MY lure can call coyotes for 5 miles "....or whatever. Now- I quit putting lures up a trees for 1 reason- logically and practically, they were doing me no good. I wasn't calling in anything. If I wasn't setting on good locations- all the high powered lure in the world does no good. And if I was using my BEST lure as a call lure- that meant my secondary lures were at the set? I think not. Putting lures high up came about, IMHO, for one reason only...to make trappers think that by using this lure...they would have the magical ability to call in fox and coyotes from forbidden areas- away for competetors sets, etc. Remember the claims that came out during the 50-60s on lures? Trying to compete, trying to get a basically bait mindset among the nations trappers into lures, saw some outlandish claims. I'm afraid this lure in a tree thing is more of the same.
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Post by Maineman on Jul 15, 2004 13:07:11 GMT -6
Question: Does anyone use pure skunk essence or skunk essence mixed with rendered skunk fat down the hole...We all have views about "in the hole" and "out of the hole" and I'll just let that dog alone...
I'm under the belief the the skunk fat/essence that I use works as an attractor...If I were to convert over to the second theory then this mixture should work even "BETTER" down the hole...Right???
Ok, more of my convoluted rational...My belief is that skunk essence can be a great attractor BUT K9's tend to roll in skunk...and I'd just assume get them to my set and use something else to catch them... (I know, I said that I've use Canine-call down the hole)...sue-me...lol ;D
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Post by tim125 on Jul 15, 2004 13:39:07 GMT -6
and the depth of the debate is on- when i feel i need to use nose powered call lure- 70 to 150yrds - i am on a somethin or other within 10 feet of my sets- so as the canines come in and circle they pick up the 1/10th of a drop of lure in the hole- city trappin aint easy
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Post by dj88ryr on Jul 15, 2004 13:41:28 GMT -6
and the depth of the debate is on- when i feel i need to use nose powered call lure- 70 to 150yrds - i am on a somethin or other within 10 feet of my sets- so as the canines come in and circle they pick up the 1/10th of a drop of lure in the hole- city trappin aint easy WTF?? Care to elaborate??
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Post by tim125 on Jul 15, 2004 13:50:24 GMT -6
hey dj- what part are you referring too
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 15, 2004 13:53:45 GMT -6
tim125,
All of it!!!
Thanks.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jul 15, 2004 13:54:34 GMT -6
;D The whole thing....maybe I am tired, but it ain't completeing all the circuits in my brain. I think you have a lot of good advice to offer here, just make it a little easier to understand, for us dumb hicks up in the central mountains ;D ;D
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Post by Maineman on Jul 15, 2004 13:55:12 GMT -6
Not to beat a dead horse but I think another misconception is that when I was talking about not placing a call lure down the hole, that we're placing it up high in a tree or something... I have (as stated prior) do place skunk essence in bushes but those bushes are usually only one to two feet high...I'll sometimes place it on a nearby rock, or simply throw a Q-tip down on the ground...I guess my theory is more along the lines of a bait-station concept (Substitute the Skunk essence Call-lure for the bait-station) I'm not asking anyone to buy into this...I'm simply sharing what works for me... Dave Z
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Post by trappnman on Jul 15, 2004 14:00:52 GMT -6
Maineman- don't you want your canines to WANT to roll? To dig? To slobber?
I do...know why?....cause there ain't a coyote I can't catcxh....LOl sorry- me bad.
Seriously- I want that reaction- I use lures that hopefully envoke those reactions. My plan of course is to catch him before he goes on to do those things.
Now- if yo uare worried about the canine rolling in thel ure after caught...you have a point...however, I use XLDC at a lot of sets- and never yet had a coyote come home smelling like skunk.
So- do I think oyu would do better putting down the hole and catch mroe-= sure I do. Look at it this way- the ones that come into a high scet and still are curious enough to work your set and get caught- you'd still catch.
But how many aren't even checking out your set- that the lure in a tree satisfys? Perhaps more than you think.
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Post by CoonDuke on Jul 15, 2004 14:04:48 GMT -6
OK, here's another thing to think about... A fella puts a small smear of call lure 6 feet up in a tree to try to bring an animals from a good distance....say 100 yards. Now, how the heck would that extra 6 feet matter when the animal being called in 40 foot downhill or uphill (elevation difference) from the set? Would that 6' make much of a difference??? The only advantage is that the lure is more exposed to the air currents as opposed to down the hole...but the height probably means nothing. It would probably be just as good on the backing or a rock nearby. Now, a big carcass, call station, or something that really puts out a lot of odor is a different story...
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Post by trappnman on Jul 15, 2004 14:16:11 GMT -6
I agree- a carcass dump is esp nice.
Heres the debate-
Lure placed say 4-5 feet off the ground
1) does more likely than not dissipate on the air current a little faster
but to offset, it:
1) is exposed more to the elements, thus not lasting as long 2) redirects a canines nose 3) leaves no ground trail
Whereas lure placed in the hole: 1) is protected somewhat from the elements 2) directs a canines nose IN the hole 3) leaves a ground trail
To offset that, it:
1) might not get dissipated as fast as the higher placed lure.
So- ask yourself...after a few days, which lure will still be producing.
BTW- I recommend ALL the lures I sell to be used down the hole...
Keep in mind that although I take 15% or so reds, my mind set is 100% coyotes and any thoughts and territories I have on canines....means coyotes.
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Post by tim125 on Jul 15, 2004 14:27:25 GMT -6
dj i will try to explain- i can catch most local on the location fox 1st night in - even when setting at evening dark - but it is because of the 1/10 of a drop of lure - call lure may catch a few 1st night but that has not been my experiance- when i hear trappers saying it takes 3 to 6 days to catch a canine -my first question is how much lure do they use-when tring to pull canines off there normal travel route to a safe place to catch them i often use call lure within 10 feet of the sets- on anything that sticks up - if nothing is avaiable i put something in - but always standing up and observe to see if its knocked over-if you have any doubt about lure usage -put 2 sets side by side and lure 1 as you normally do and use a qtip on the second 1 but just touch the qtip long enough till it changes color on the tip and see what happens- was on a ranch with a big trapper out west and he let me set the place up as i was only there 2 days he was not coming back for 5 days- used my method and he laughed saying it was his feul i was wasting- he came thru on the next check and had the coyotes- the humidity was 5% and he did not feel it would work- i have taken fox down to 15 below not counting chill factor with 1/10 drop but dead on location - the call lure will bring them in but i want to change there attitude to what they have been smelling when they get there- this is my stone not meant to be written in stone on someone elses line- do what works in your area but remain flexable- let me know if that helps
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Post by CoonDuke on Jul 15, 2004 14:37:18 GMT -6
So you use a strong call lure away from the set and a diffenent lure (in a small quantity) at the set? Is your call lured object placed upwind of the set?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 15, 2004 14:39:21 GMT -6
the quantity of lure has NOTHING to do with first night catches.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jul 15, 2004 15:03:40 GMT -6
Interesting, I have never noticed an aversion to my sets the first night in, and I use a huge dollop on my cotton balls, if the cotton ball is still down the hole after a catch, I won't even bother relureing the set, if a catch is made the first night.
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 15, 2004 17:37:10 GMT -6
One of the things like about what tim125 said was his asking how far are you trying to call in the fox or whatever?
Would some folks make some comments on that for me?
I agree with Tim that I would use a call lure to move them over 10' or so to where my set is.
Again, AT THE RISK OF A BIG EGO I SAY, this is stressing the importance of location. If they aren't there you aren't going to catch them!
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Post by Stef on Jul 15, 2004 18:04:41 GMT -6
That's what I do CD A call lure for me is just a LURE. A call lure can be mild or loud but in my book its still a call lure. It doesn't need to have skunk essence in it to be a labeled as a call lure. Its the formulation who bring the name ;D Skunky lures in the trees = more $ in lure makers pockets Stef
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Post by Stef on Jul 15, 2004 18:05:42 GMT -6
BTW... I never seen a dead skunk in a tree!
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Post by chub618 on Jul 15, 2004 18:25:59 GMT -6
i am going to put everything down the hole... i use to place the call on something about 2-3 ft. above ground and then lure and urine the set,,,, also wouldn't the heat of the ground itself in colder weather keep the lure more operable? meaning the earths heat below the frost line act as a heating agent letting the lure let say evaporate beter. just a thought
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jul 15, 2004 18:37:18 GMT -6
good point chub! on those just at freezing nights- a lure 4-10 inches down a hole would certainly stay viable longr.
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