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Post by thebeav2 on Apr 30, 2012 6:14:35 GMT -6
Well Steavareno you will have to get up with Robert W and develop a baling system.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 30, 2012 6:23:51 GMT -6
I have used the board and blocks, as long ago as the mid 80s on storing green coon. It did seem like a good idea, but overall, I found we could get more coon in the freezer by rolling coon than by laying them flat.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 30, 2012 6:26:51 GMT -6
also, since we are talking about auctions, if "big dealers" can price price protect lots- then ANY shipper should have that option.
I know the reasoning behind not doing so- that they cannot keep separate everybody 1 possum- but the reality of today's technology makes that moot-
A better reason is lots and grades- but since they are mixed grades and lots from multiple shippers now as it is, its not too hard to have auction lots and price protected lots held separate.
Or is the real reason- well then, everyone would want to be price protected.....?
I think that is the bottom line- and while I don't ship fur, I think its grossly unfair that at a live auction, only part of the goods are protected, in effect sacrificing the small guys articles at cheaper prices, protecting others.
not real fair is it?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 30, 2012 9:13:13 GMT -6
Tman some complain about the shell game played at the local level, don't think for a moment it doesn't happen up North!!!! WE all like to tune in and see the top lot prices and the better section avgs for sure, but one needs to see overall avgs on fur and also how the grading can change at will for the market as well. Some like the idea of having X amount grade higher than normal and then other years the grade is tougher. It is all a shell game for sure!
Each to his own some like to ship, others like to have money in hand, no true right ot wrong way for sure. Sitting on fur for a few years though could be a gamble that pays or a gamble that looses. All depends on market and grade and what it is costing one to sit on that fur, some markets stay down for extended periods and I wouldn't want to be sitting on a large qty others have the time and are willing to gamble with that time.
The fur market has not been stable in a long,long time. Stable I know is a relative term.
It will be interesting to see the results once again this go around!
3.2 million ranch mink !!!!!!!!!!!! 1 million sec III's wow!
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Post by trappnman on Apr 30, 2012 9:30:41 GMT -6
I do think steven has the right idea on rats- if the market does what its done over last 10 years with rats hitting a good high then dropping back to nothing, then taking that ride again etc.
If one wants to or likes to speculate- and for steven, rats would be a relatively easy way to invest in a commodity. No different from buying or aquiring gold, coins, stamps, scrap or whatever- aquire low and sell high.
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Post by mtcbrlatrap on Apr 30, 2012 10:10:02 GMT -6
If by definition to most fur harvesters that selling either locally or at large auctions is a crap shoot or not fair than one needs to find the market or "shell game" that routinely pays that individual harvester the most revenue. For me the last 6-7 years that has been international auctions. For me however that is with my limited amounts and few general species, coons, rats, opossums, mink and my few red fox.
I don't necessarily disagree with those that believe all sorts of shenanigans go on in the breadth of the fur market. Why would not fur be any different than many other commodities or markets. Most middle men, wholesalers and yes brokers benefit from the access of knowledge that others don't have or to conditions that encourage sales out of duress, stress or need. Predation occurs in the human culture as well as any animal ecology, we have sanitized a bit more by using material items for our exchange basis. If one is an economic predator there is no desire to destroy the prey species as you want to be able to repeat the process not end it.
Bryce
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Post by trappnman on Apr 30, 2012 15:09:09 GMT -6
Bryce- I don't believe that its a case of shenanigans- but if dealers can protect lots, the only logical conclusion is that what is sold at lower prices are the unprotected lots, ie smaller shippers and individuals.
IMO, the option should be open to all, or none.
We can argue returns based on particular circumstances all we want, but as you say, we all have to determine the best overall market that does what we want it to, in all aspects.
Steven, what you suggest, is pretty much what many fur buyers do- buy low on markets they know, and sell when its higher.
so my question to you- is why not buy rats? Seems like you got the storage, and certainly if you can make money trapping low value rats and reselling when the market goes up, then the same really amount of profit could, or should, be able to be made by buying rats cheap, and selling high-
Any thoughts of doing that?
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Post by thebeav2 on Apr 30, 2012 15:57:14 GMT -6
I will have non resident fur buyers license this coming fall. I have some contacts and i know I can buy a bunch of rats In the carcass at a very low price and I mean under $3.00. But I'm only buying rats and nothing else.
I'm not sure on the amount of fur one needs to have to qualify for dealer protection but It's a big number. Most likely over 4 or 5 thousand of one type. The reason being Is that NAFA needs to be able to have enough fur to have enough numbers to make up different lots and grades. So that the trapper or fur buyers fur can be sold to Individual broker. Now If several trappers got together and pooled their fur they could qualify for dealer protection. But getting two or more trappers to do that would most likely not happen.
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Post by TrapperRon on May 1, 2012 20:15:31 GMT -6
It is not difficult for dealers to price protect their good as they have, and if they have, sufficient quantities to make their own saleable lots. Dealer lots are one dealer only, not mixed with other dealers. Even some of their goods have to go in the part lots where there is not enough to make a lot, thus not price protected. Trappers on the other hand do not have that quantity individually and they go into the part lots (trapper goods).
So 200 trappers all have coon in one lot of 1000 pelts. All have different ideas on the price. How on earth would you ever price protect those skins.
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Post by thebeav2 on May 2, 2012 15:30:38 GMT -6
From what I'm now told the coon market Is alive and well. I'm told there are major buyers waiting to scoop up all available coon. At what prices? I guess we will have to wait till June to see.
I just can't see how the trim market can absorb all this fur.
With the huge quantities of fur being offered at the NAFA sale just 10 days or so before the FHA sale. FHA may have a light turn out. But time will tell.
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Post by trappnman on May 2, 2012 17:52:57 GMT -6
It would be good to see coon move well, at decent prices.
I guess, thinking about it- would be nice if all held well or advanced!
Its going to be a very interesting sale- in many ways for sure.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on May 3, 2012 20:14:27 GMT -6
Steven, what you suggest, is pretty much what many fur buyers do- buy low on markets they know, and sell when its higher.
so my question to you- is why not buy rats? Seems like you got the storage, and certainly if you can make money trapping low value rats and reselling when the market goes up, then the same really amount of profit could, or should, be able to be made by buying rats cheap, and selling high-
Any thoughts of doing that?
Me? Buy fur?
Absolutely not. I'm not a people person and quite frankly I can catch as much fur as I can really handle and maintain a quasi family life.
Plus when the fur market drops I'm gonna fish.
I used to fish more in a year than I have the last three combined.
You have to quit assuming the market is going to tank Steve. lol Otherwise your storing fur is a good idea.But the negativity.?
Not negativity paul. Its reality.
But heck I'm not like some and say this rat market has been on speculation for the last three years or it cant hold. It will as long as ranch mink brink a cool hundred dollar bill.
I'm actually pretty up beat on the fur market other than coon.
If I told some what I think my beaver are gonna average this sale they'd say I'm nuts. And they may be right lol.
This year if a trapper didnt sell early or if he held enough goods to catch the late wave he should have had the best year since the boom other than coon.
Although I will have only sold about 5 percent of my rat catch at auction this year I'm thankful for it(the auction).
No doubt in my mind the auction sets the tune on rat prices.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 4, 2012 6:17:00 GMT -6
steven did you see 3.5 million ranch mink and 1 million section III's !!!!! I don't think the ranch mink are going to hold with those numbers what so ever and I think the rat market is set for a down turn in the future.
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Post by trappnman on May 4, 2012 6:37:45 GMT -6
Ron-
How on earth would you ever price protect those skins.
My question is more- why on earth should dealer lots be price protected?
because if dealer lots are price protected, and not sold at offered lower values-
then that means that all the small shippers are getting the pickle.
if NAFA or anyone is going to protect fur by setting minimum selling prices- then it should be ALL or NONE.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on May 4, 2012 10:44:38 GMT -6
Randy they sold over 3 million mink the last sale.
A pretty good chunk of mink were sold not that long ago in denmark at advancing prices.
We'll be okay.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 4, 2012 10:50:18 GMT -6
so where in the world is the need for 7 million + Ranch mink in this world? Specially at the prices they have been fetching? The economy is in the tank yet and people have the cash to afford over priced Ranch mink?  Interesting for sure! |
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on May 4, 2012 12:37:19 GMT -6
More like 35 or more million ranch mink randy. NAFA isnt the only place to market mink.
There is about six or so billion people in the world. Just think how much fur could actually be consumed.
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Post by TrapperRon on May 4, 2012 21:37:33 GMT -6
If memory serves me correctly I was told there would be 55 million ranch mink world wide this year, 2011 - 2012.
trappenman
The dealer lots are protected at the dealers request with his price. Only if that price is reasonable.
Over the years the dealers who have bought correctly according to current market and sold in the part lots have done better in the long run. So I do not think the trappers are getting the pickle.
Most of the protected dealer goods are held over because the dealer has overpaid in the country on speculation. Or, they are speculating on a rising market to make more bucks.
It is my belief that consistent selling at current market price is the best bang for your buck. Trappers on the whole do not ship to have their goods stored from one sale to the next. They like to sell and see good clearances.
With 500 buyers at a sale they are there to buy fur at current market price. With that many buyers cooperation to "pickle the trapper" is hardly possible or an option. Prices are set by supply and demand.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on May 4, 2012 21:38:15 GMT -6
Yeh could be but who is using up that many ranch mink at those prices? Also fur isn't the fashion it once was nor is the economy either. I would have thought the best time would have been the world internet boom and all the billions made durring those years.
Forget fur trapping heck I need to be into ranch mink LOL. It isn't like the US is seeing an increase in ranch mink production heck the people I knew that where into ranch mink and fox left it all in the early 90's. I know one left in NW Iowa still alive and kicking.
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Post by trappnman on May 5, 2012 7:18:01 GMT -6
if prices are set by supply and demand- then let the demand, be the same whether my fur, or a big dealers fur.
because when some of a product is price protected, and the rest is not- thats not really true supply and demand is it?
What about the trapper, that reads the earlyt predictions from the auctions insofar as prices, etc- so goes out and traps a bunch of something- but by auction time. the price had free falled-
so that trapper who speculated & over extended himself with time and $$$, to produce a product he was told, would be in high demand, now faces a net loss- yet the dealer, who speculated as well- is protected?
What would those dealers do, if the auctions made a rule- NOTHING is price protected, unless its all that item or none of that item?
Still ship?
lets break it down like this- there are 10 coons for sale. The demand is 10 coon- but the buyers want it as cheap as possible- so they bid low.
7 of those coon, from small shippers are not price protected- 3 are protected.
if they know those 3 coon have to sell at a higher price- do you not think, to average out their costs- the 7 aren't going at much lower prices? After all, if those 7 were bringing what was wanted under price protection- it would not even come into play for the other 3.
meaning only one thing- that there is a 2 tired system at the auction.
pawns and kings...........
sorry Ron, I hear your arguement, but its still not fair.
a free market auction, should be just that.
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