Blind Sets

[makete]

Troy, great video! That covered shelf would be an excellent place for a set.

[Nightwish (Catpaw)]

I finally caught my first mink 4 yrs ago...and another last year...can I partcipate?

[trappnman]

putting this here- if anyone has a serious response they sure may post it. I edited it to make it more pc for those offended- but the point remains what it always was- baited vs not- before it became a semantics battle that had no piont, because it was either this-

1) I could not catch as many mink with blind sets as truth

or this-

2) but if I counted unbaited pockets, then yes of course I could-

its either or- or the semantics discsusion would then have zero point in the debate

which was, as evidenced by all the coon referrals by Mr Zagman et al, thep oint. Or at least it was to me-

I mean, think about that a bit-

now it seems, some of the trappers mentioned are now consider frauds by some- enough so that a bitter post is made that apparently, I have something to gain by promoting blind set trapping- not sure what that could be-

at least I cannot be accused of trying to sell bait and lure!

but does it matter what the old guys said- yes only to show its old school termenology and what I grew up with, and for sure no attempot on my part to mislead, mea culpa- if not accepted internet lingo- but no on the real issue- bait vs unbaited.

In any case, heres the post-

Then, you suddenly sprung it on the other side that your "blind" sets were often dug pockets with no bait.

We all thought you were talking about walking down a stream and finding places in the mink's path and, even with altering, putting the pan where he'd step anyhow on the hop or fly.....or swim.

Find the post.....it's all in there.


"suddenly" it seems, blind pockets aren't blind sets, all because YOU thought I meant something different?

ok- you misunderstood what I meant- no harm, no foul- take that new knowledge, of what I am saying baited vs unbaited, and go from there-

didn't this get started about how I was missing all those coon- you even stated I didn't want to trap coon- and mink because I DIDN'T BAIT?

that was the key- BAIT

Weren't all the rebuttals, that BAIT TOOK MINK QUICKER> BETTER?

wasn't it always BAIT vs UNBAITED BLIND SETS?

and I just couldn't do it, it just couldn't be done-

but all of a sudden- since its now "known" I consider unbaited pockets as blind sets- and for the record, I use more NATURAL pockets than man made- I'm confused- that a blind set or not?..........

I got blind pockets made of rocks I made many years ago- those natural enough to be consider blind sets? How aobut if another trapper made them and pulled out- can I call them blind sets then? Would a bridge or really any man made thing like a culvert, be considered not a blind set as well?

by the man made defintion, it would not be- it seems that no set except laying a trap down on the bottom in the middle of a stream would be considered a blind set by some.

hey- that IS a good blind set- just place rocks on....... no wait, then its altered.......... never mind.

anyhoo, all of a sudden, the "truth" comes out- I lied to all- I wasn't using blind sets- I was using unbaited pockets as well.

I "sprung this on the other side" it seems in a brilliant Perry Masonisk type move, I stunned the crowd, making the courtroom gasp in my audacity-

so is the consensus now, since I've been found out....

that yes I CAN CATCH MINK as quick, as fast, with my unbaited pockets as with baited?

cause thats the ONLY logic in the debate on semantics?

otherwise, why the debate? now the debate, it seems by the post I quoted- is that I unfairly classified my setting as "blind", and if he or others would have known I meant"unbaited pockets" then of course I could do what I say.

You are missing the point that MOST people do not consider a dug pocket set with no bait a blind set. Period.

and you are missing the point, that blind set mink trappers consider them all blind sets, as stated in KELLYS POST. And oddly, MOST debating that they are not, are not mink trappers. Period.

KELLY'S POST, and thank you Kelly- showed that the traditional blind set trapper, albeit it seems not the internet mink trapper, meant exactly what I meant- I try to be clear and try to say its just me, in my little area, in every post so as to NOT be misunderstood-

And I don't say internet mink trapper as an insult- but after KELLY'S POST I got to thinking- and no where, have I read such a definition, but here, on the internet.

(I highlite KELLY'S POST because it seems to be ignored by those who to continue this part of the debate- so please read it- and then tell me with a striaght face, how all those guys are right, and I'm still wrong? or are johnny thorpe, bud hall, etc as well as what my dad and others around here called them, wrong as well in their definitions of blind sets?)

you suddenly sprung it on the other side that your "blind" sets were often dug pockets with no bait.

again, suddenly sprung it? my you have a vivid way with words when prefabricating. Go read my articles in T & PC from years ago-

and trust me, if I would have known how basic I need to be in discussing this, I would have taken nothing as a given.

For the record- for me blind sets include trail sets, vertical banks, BE sets, dryland trial sets on occasion, unbaited pockets, shelf sets, ersting sets, crossover sets, depressions (small pockets), shaving banks, moving rocks, undercutting banks, finding natural pockets, using man made aids to pinpoint, made with both footholds and conibears. (Disclaimer: other sets might have been omitted from list through inadvertant memory loss, so please don't take this a complete list)

In short, every set for canine or mink, that doesn't use lure or bait is what was considered, preinternet, a blind set.

perhaps a 4-5 inch depression isn't a pocket?

but a 8 inch one is?

Can you tell me where a depression ends, and a "pocket" begins?

1/2"? 2"? 3"? is there an upper limit? Cause I can carry a tape, then I'll know if I'm blind setting, or setting pockets without bait-

I always called them all pockets- refining that a depression, is often all you need-

as a lifelong blind setterr I took as a given, what all the blind setters in the past have taken as a GIVEN- you also use blind pockets, tunnels, cutouts- and please oh please, don't tell me a cutout tunnel is a blind set, a pocket is not-

so show me the post-

please, because I'm unaware of it-

where I state or implied that I did not use any sort of pockets in my blind setting. As you search, if you bother, you will find many references to scooped out depressions and pockets, often made with foot or hand.

Good reading!

PS- balls are round, oranges are orange, it does rain in Indianapolis AND snow in Minneapolis, Coyotes stink, bears defecate in the woods, Washington will finish last and the only sure thing are taxes and death.....

(some other givens that I might have misled on)

[Steve Gappa]

and fair warning- any personal attacks on anyone will be your swan song post-

[bobwendt]

c"reated blind" set might be a more accurate description of certain trapping methods. like say an elbow set where a hole is dug horizontal from the water, like a pocket, then an hole straight down from the top dry bank to meet the horizontal hole. no matter which hole he goes in, likely he`ll cross a trap at the water entrance. but I don`t know anyone that wouldn`t take the added % of a lure or bait in such a rig. to me blind set is set a trap at a squeeze spot on a track , or likely place he will walk, judged by mink knowledge, no lure, no digging holes. that`s what most folks consider a blind set. maybe a stepping stick or slight alter to squeeze him tighter over the trap. no more. if any holes dug, bait or lure used, then most folks don`t consider that a blind set. but really, who cares the name, long as the mink gets caught, or the coyote , or any other animal that is the target?

[thorsmightyhammer]

The parameters did change over time from my point of view, maybe we should take a poll from those that were here from the start and see if they were on the same wavelengths as I was.

My arguement was always a pocket, always, never baited vs unbaited. I may think you are wrong on the unbaited vs baited pockets succes ratio and that is where we will have to diverge and say we'll have to agree to disagree.

But to say that at least in the context of you and I that it was between baited and non baited at the start is disengenous.

[kelly]

Aug 1, 2009 15:09:55 GMT -6 thorsmightyhammer said:

The parameters did change over time from my point of view, maybe we should take a poll from those that were here from the start and see if they were on the same wavelengths as I was.

My arguement was always a pocket, always, never baited vs unbaited. I may think you are wrong on the unbaited vs baited pockets succes ratio and that is where we will have to diverge and say we'll have to agree to disagree.

But to say that at least in the context of you and I that it was between baited and non baited at the start is disengenous.

What the he double hockey sticks does it really matter? Keep up the petty bickering and another real good thread with tons of great information is going to be AXED!

I started this thread to gain information from trappnman about a technique for trapping mink that requires no bait/no lure, aka blind sets. To all the others who contributed direct information to the above topic I thank you.

To those others we really don't care what your interpretation of a blind set is or is not. It really is not important so like Bob Wendt said, "...who cares the name, long as the mink gets caught..." So enough already and lets get back on "Topic" and discuss more ways to catch mink without lure or bait. And that includes Bottom Edge Set, BK.

[kelly]

Here is some mink footage that someone posted online.

s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg49/paydowncat/?action=view¤t=minkvid.flv

Just goes to show yone how narrow a piece of land is for a mink to walk back and forth on and not step in the water. That big rock is the ultimate blockage that forces the mink to the water. Wouldn't take much to have a super set here that will catch every mink that passes by.

[kelly]

After watching this for the 4th or 5th time I guess there is one point where he puts one foot in the water so that is where the trap should go. With a little alteration to make sure of shear bank, bed for trap, and guide stick on outside jaw by dog one should be good to go.

Any Ideas of the critter he caught? With the white belly it looks like a 4-6" fish to me.

[trappnman]

MM- thats exactly the type of blind pocket set I mean- fairly shallow pocket, not big, where he expects to see it,

Bob- those elbows do work, but never more so for me than just a blind pocket- plus hard to find banks just right, harder to make tat it sounds, etc- ice and stuff puts them out of commission too.

ah steven- to me it was never the pocket, because as stated, setting and making blind pockets is just a part of being a blind setter. Its terminology I grew up with. If you call it something else, then you do.

fyi- shallow pcokets in current , stay open longer for me than deep and wide pockets. THe #1 consideration i nwinter trappingm ink.

baited vs unbaited pockets. interesting question- yes, we will just have to disagree, and let our personal experiences with both dictate what we do.

There are two reasons to not use bait : 1) reduce incidentals 2) reduce work on the line.

Kelly, I don't see any difference overall, on the # of mink I take with bait and without. The only exception to this, is in very cold- sub zero weather, when a rat or mink carcass does seem to give the line a bump- I attribute much or all of that, to mink holding tighter during such weather and perhaps hunting harder in a smaller area, and working baits harder.

the whole thing behind blind sets, at least as taught by my dad and family, is to yes put the trap where the mink will step (but isn't that any trapping?) and a blind setter, has many tricks to make that mink WANT to be where your trap is-

and so much of that is to provide hunting opportunitys where he would be hunting, provide shelter where hes eating or resting and looking for shelter. Its a given hes going to be travelling- so work with the mink not against him.

Give the mink what he is looking for close to his line of travel- and he will work it- if hes working undercuts, get down on your knees (when someone tells me hes a blind setter and he wears knee boots or hip boots, it tells me what type of blind setter he is) and make some cutouts, make some blind pockets. Go to the deep water, the vertical banks- that where you got the mink somewhat pinpointed.

so if you know that mink will be HERE- doesn't it make sense that a pocket HERE, would attract him baited or not? Esp if water and a pool in it?

and alter constantly- its what blind setters do and always have done, in the marshes, rivers and creeks around here.

Most mink trappers trap 3 weeks at most- how much time is spent trying to gain skill at unbaited sets? Esp when everyone knows, they are worthless?

[trappnman]

on small creeks, in approximate order from most to least- heres my breakdown of blind sets- this is on somewhere plus minus 250 footholds plus how many CBs I feel like putting out.

1) muskrats sets- the best #1 blind mink set of any. Any rat run, feedbed, hole is also a dandy mink set. many of these sets are constructed and are constructed FOR rats and mink

2) undercut banks- often with a small 4-6 deep pocket at the waterline, fist wide, water back in hole, yes, I do slick them up-

3) unbaited pockets- next to deep water areas, one of the best I use. same type of small pocket at waterline, hand sized and not too deep- angled slightly up stream to have the current bring mink to me

4) Cutouts, resting sets- I use natural and manmade 50/50- matter not to me or the mink- if a log is nearby I'll move it and lean against bank or lay over bank, if one is where I want it I'll make small depression under it. Above deep water, at current bends, below fast rapids esp at bends

5) cubbies- some I've made over years, some are natural rip rap I've located, some are under stumps, roots, etc.

6) 110s along certain banks- banks that are high, but have a secondary "bank" thats say 12-20 inches high next to shallow water, are deadly for this set. One of my few mink triples (mink in consecutive traps, same location), was in 3 side by side (20 feet) apart 110s.

7) BE sets- I try some every year, hit a few hot locations but seems like they disappear every year due to flood. I keep trying.

8) Constructed tunnels, most open on top.

probably 75% of my sets, are either rat/mink setups and unbaited pockets. When I do bait, I tend to bait the cubbies and undercuts more than the pockets-

I catch 10 or more in baited coon pipes, pockets every year- the number is low, because I'm setting for coon, not mink and setitng to kepe sets open longer, which means the trap further out from the pocket/pipe.

one of the simpliest blind sets going, is make a small depression/pocket, slick it up- fist sized hole- take a #2 dls or a #11 I guess would do- set it directly under hole, shove 2 sticks through springs into bank, so trap is just underwater-

a used hole that sized, where he expects prey to be, is a mink magnet. Try it.

[kelly]

Thank You Again, Steve! Definitely am forming pictures in my mind now of how simple yet effective these sets can be and am anxious to give them a serious try. Also, looking forward to meeting you in Sept at the MN Furharvesters Convention.

[trappnman]

a couple of thoughts come to mind...

first of all, coon weren't always like they are today in many areas. During the 40s (from what I've heard) and the late 50s and 60s (from observation) coons were rather scarce. All during my childhood and teen years, coon were simply not a factor in mink trapping. Make the set to hold a coon? never heard of that then- why would someone do such a thing?

for those 30-40 years old and younger, such a world seems impossible-

did bait setting become popular because of the coon value? that always seems to be the after thought- "and of course, I want all those coon"

but back then, and still for me on this line in my mink sets- mink are the game.

I think blind setting was popular, because its so easy (when you know how), and all you needed was a trap and a stick (so to speak). To think that the definition of blind sets would someday be to some, unaltered sets, would be foreign to the old blind setters.

Because they were trapping mink, and they made sets. Perhaps thats where the thought I've read many, many times on the internet came from- "I don't want to be walking up and down and down and up a creek trying to find a blind set"

its a saying I always just couldn't understand.

no- not at all- look at whats there, if whats there isn't good enough, make the set-

and more times than not, whats there, still needs to be improved on to make it a "sure" set. Again, I'm thinking thats why blind setting gets such a bad rap from those that don't blind set- they simply don't understand that old time blind setters, altered and made sets at will.

So- lets move on- lets take it as a given, what blind set trappers always taken as a given- you make sets, you alter sets.

Lori learned coyote trapping, the mechanics, enough to become a very good coyote trapper, and I'll match her trap setting, bedding skills with any- and being out trapping 12 months a year gives her a leg up on most as far as reading coyote sign, and in field observations.

Yet- she still, after 6-7 years of being "full time" on water, with me teaching her, an average blind setter at best.

Why? She knows the sets. But she doesn't have a lifelong knowledge of mink on the creeks- in rain, in snow, in heat, in cold. But, being on the water 3 months a year, is teaching her a lot. She wants to learn, and makes a good student.

Being a good blind setter, takes a more intimate knowledge of mink and their habits, than does bait setting, in my opinion.

Thats not to say a bait setter cannot be very knowledgeable about mink, cause thats not the case- but what I am saying, is that bait can be used with more success by beginner and the part timer that spends little time on the water.

it seems so simple to me (and Lori says the reason it seems so easy is cause I've done it all my life, and thats true): look at a creeks, and match what yo see on the creeks, to what you know about mink.

Remember way back when, and I posted that to be a successful blind set trapper you had to take 2 things as givens? to refresh, those two points were 1) a traveling mink is a hunting mink and 2) creeks aren't run randomly.

lets go back to what I said here- if you cannot find the blind set spots, make them. BUT- and this is an important but- make them at the best location available to you.

One of the best ways, if not the absolute best way, to learn blind setting, is to set a LOT of traps on a location. Over set. And this is something that Lori was never involved in, it was done long before she started with me on a reg basis.

If your desire is to run and gun and never come back, then you probably haven't read this far anyways, but if you have, this next isn't for you. But if your goal is to set up a blind set line in your home area that will produce year after year, than this advice is the way to go.

And that is to set up as many locations as you can, at that particular stop. set 20 traps on that creek in several "good" locations. After a few years, unless you are in such good territory that all produce fantastically, you will notice that 1 or perhaps 2 of these areas, will be the dominate spot at that location.

I believe, that setting up the key locations at that stop- will give you well over 90% if not 100% of the mink you would have taken being spread out all over the creek.

And I also therefore believe the next logical conclusion- that if you eliminate the key areas- defined as the prime location on that section- that your total mink take on that stretch, will drop, in some cases dramactically.

Now- will baited pockets eliminate this concern? In low and medium population areas, sure, I'd guess that even if set in bad locaitons, they would draw some mink.

but would bad locations with bait be more successful than good locations w/unbaited sets?

No, in my opinion.

So the question becomes will bait on good locations, take more than unbaited ones in those same locations? Again, in my opinion, based on my mink trapping experience, no. Its my opinion, that they will take the same.

Put what they expect to see, or are looking for, where they expect to see it. Or, give their nature something to react to.

You can also, if you have the desire, and I do, go out after fresh snows, and see what GENERAL spot is that point on your creeks-

Do I have to walk to some of those? Yes, I do- but walking is free, and if it adds fur to the check, its time saved in the long run.

After a years and decades, it becomes as I'm sure you can see, far easier to have a pretty good % in picking out these spots just with your eyes.

The very best advice I ever read on mink, and I think Faler said it- "Take note of every location you caught a mink at, esp those locations where you set for mink."

My cousin is a very good blind set trapper, as was his dad. But we argue on one point- he claims that in a week, he will get every mink on that creek, and he moves on. Thats with unbaited sets btw. Me, I say you are missing the best mink- you are yes, catching the mink that are there- but more will come.

heres a little tip- Whats your % of caught mink at a eaten rat? I used to take the rat out of the trap, stake or wire him to the bank. Doing this, came me maybe a 75% chance it seemed, of having a snapped trap and a gone rat, or a mink, assuming he came back (sometimes they do not). Maybe a little better than that, but not much. And this is with guides, placing the trap as careful as I an, etc. More success is gained in my opinion, by keeping rat as low as possible, and not high on the bank. Also, shave set if you can- I think mink get real excited and bold- any mink trapper has had mink sitting on rats and reluctant to go over the years- and that they are agitated working a rat. Thus, more snapped traps than I liked.

My new way- 100% to this date. Crude but simple- I set 3 sometimes 4 traps around that eaten mink- leaving the mink in the trap (if it was easy to take,m it would have been gone) and stake the trap down- set those other traps around that rat- and 4,5,6 times a year- there will be a mink there on next check- never field yet. sometimes I go back to truck, sometimes, most times, for 1 check I take other traps close by.

[thorsmightyhammer]

Esp when everyone knows, they are worthless?

Whats worthless? The set or the mink?

Oh I couldnt resist a little. The mink price is depressing at best.

[trappnman]

steven- it makes me darn near cry-

3 years ago I was riding high- my best year ever on mink and rats since living here, and prices were at their peak and I sold at the peak- add in coon, beavs, etc and $400-$500 days were happening regular.

now............

my waterline will change for sure this year- not less mink sets, since every mink sets is also a rat set- in fact, in the book, all mink or rat sets are marked r/m- but more coon, and most likely I'll start water opener this year to get the coon, and still wait on mink til later cause I'll be running 24.

[trappnman]

heres another thought-

what do I mean by being mink knowledgeable?

or at least, when I reread my post, thats what I asked myself.

Heres what I meant..........

I don't have a clue as to breeding habits or any of a number of things about mink. Things that don't matter in my view, to my success. And they well might- but lets leave what I don't know for now to what I do know.

first- look at the mink. His body structure, his fat ratio, his eyes and ears. His stature. How he moves (metabolism). Combine that with knowing general weasel type actions, and this tells us that as a predator, how and how often he hunts.

We know what mink feed on- basically any critter or big bug he can get into his mouth when needed, but we also know that when a preferred species is there, he will make a habit out of returning to and hunting those areas.

We also know that mink are susceptible to other predators, primarily IMO raptors. Some think coon are a top predator of mink as well.

So, based on his small size, his style of hunting, what he hunts and how often he hunts, his travel patterns and his need form overhead and/or side protection when pausing or moving, we can see many possibilities occurring.

match the minks conduct at that location, to whats there

[trappnman]

looking at that video, if possible, and it looks like it would be, I'd scoop out that loose gravel to the right of the big rock, and try to get that fissure between the rocks open a bit more,

to the left is a perfect "landing" type access set-

[Computerhater]

Steve,

When you have a mink find, kill, and or eat at a muskrat in one of your sets you don't need 3 or 4 more traps. Punch a hole in the bank, stuff the rat back in the hole and if the mink returns, which they do about 95% of the time, you've got him. Now, if you want to go back to the truck or go through the effort of pulling and resetting near by sets, that's fine but it isn't necessary. Try it. You'll see you don't need to go through all that extra effort.



Randy

[trappnman]

good idea- thanks!

[kelly]

Been busy building a new shop/fur shed/storage/garage so have not had time to spend here. Thanks for all who have participated and always looking/learning more on the subject. Eventually, hope this thread goes to the Water Trapping Archives but not too soon.