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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 17:25:28 GMT -6
"For example, in a high coyote population area, a coyote may come through a location every night or two. In a low coyote population, a coyote may come through a location only every 14 days. If a good scent/bait catches the first coyote past the set, 1 catch per two trap nights would occur in the high population area while 1 catch per 14 days would occur in the low population area indicating the high population area is the best location. However, each location would have 1 catch per set indicating the scents are equal."
Now I don't agree with that at all. It has nothing to do with population on individual coyotes- only if trying for numbers, does population come into play. I hear that all the time giving demos- that "my coyotes only come around every couple, three weeks" and I believe them- and where they are setting traps, I have no doubt that is true.
But lets forget the studies- lets just look at logic in predator behaviors. What the 1st rule of a true predator (and yes the coyote is not that, but still...)? Conserve calories. Don't hunt where there isn't food. Now unless your problem is far too much food, habitat all being equal (somewhat like my hill farms)so everything is literally the same throughout his range- hes not going to just wander endlessly. People say mink wander- and the do- but when the find easy food- they stick around. They don't, on a regular basis, hunt creeks and areas that are unproductive. For example- all my trout streams end up either in the Mississippi, or a small river connected to the Mississippi. Once those creeks come out of the hills, they become very shallow sand bottom, slow creeks- almost dead creeks- but still- they empty into Lake Pepin or the river. And at one time were dynamite coon locations- and I'd set mink trials with 220s and make blind sets, plus the lured coon sets (That take a lot of mink in the right location) and I can count on one had the mink taken on those creeks in the flat sand bottoms on one hand- yet, those same creeks in the hills, produce a lot of mink for me. Mink don't hunt (although they may move through) unproductive waters.
Now- why would a coyote be any different? Is he going to visit barren parts of his range with the same frequency (and damn, thats like the kernel of "the spot") as his productive hunting areas? No. He is not. He spends a disproportionate amount of time in small areas of his range-
if you are setting marginal travel lanes where a track is there every couple of weeks- why set there? that same coyote is going to be present on a relatively small part of his range- set there- and you don't wait weeks.
now- if you have no access, no real coyote properties- then you can't do that. But it simply means you can't make the set up as it should be made, so you settle for what you can, and wait. I have some of those. Wish I had none.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 10:24:43 GMT -6
I think you can- if setting a lot of traps, you must have a lot of coyotes.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 8:10:51 GMT -6
Stef made good lures for sure.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 8:10:14 GMT -6
I guess I never bought bad urine. I 100% believe liberal use of urine, increases catches. I think urine use, is an east/west thing (not individuals but overall). Western trappers use far more urine than those I talk to in the east (some not using any urine at all). I'm definitely in the western school of thought here that its not a lure, its a suspicion remover.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 8:06:11 GMT -6
I guess I'm not sure what Im seeing- how far apart are the scents?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 8:02:53 GMT -6
ok- that makes sense. I do somewhat the same in testing, but all my testing is w/trap in season.
I look at it differently. Years ago, a discussion occurred with me, Bob, Wiley, etc on what constituted success over time- and the conclusion was that over a season on a longline, the average should be 1 coyote for every 17 trap nights. That is day in and day out rain snow shine etc, at end of it if you average 6-7 coyotes per 100 trap nights, you are doing well.
Success for me isn't specific to lures- that is, if I have 2 combos set, I don't care which catches him first. We kept records for years of lures used, and who made it, and what was caught- and it was so random- no pattern really emerged beyond our standard setting of 2 sets, 1 being skunk and sweet, and the other being either skunk or sweet- and then another type of lure. We do catch 20-25% of our coyotes as doubles.
Our pattern in past was to use 3 baits. All by Marty. All work well. I personally like a cat based bait, and a horsebait- so last couple of years just used those two. I typically buy a large amount of LDC, and a large amount of Magnum Call (sweet) and then multiple other lures. I'm strongly considering reducing that to just 5 lures and make those my standard lures. so 2 base lures so to speak- then 2 baits and 3 other lures, gives multiple combos.
Let me say this- or rather ask this- mike, you have posted that 1 track is the same to you as another- that it doesn't really matter where on that track line you set (within reason I know, a track going by someones front door might not be suitable lol).
That its crucial to know the reactions to baits and lures, to have the best.
so....could it just be the mindset is different, at various points on that trackline?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2021 7:39:05 GMT -6
I haven't used a bottle of lure thats classified as a gland lure for years although I acknowledge, many "non" gland lures contain glands. The season I quit using them is simple-
I'm not a believer in scent station testing. I believe a more accurate method is to use the lure in side by side sets, over at least a season or preferably 2. Testing individual lures vs individual lures side by side, over time. And combos of lures vs individual. My conclusions were clear to me- almost any combo was better over time, than singleton lures. And that adding bait to lures, was even better. And then adding a gopher to the sets- proved the most successful in side by side tests.
Time after time, season after season I found the best combo, was a sweet and sour effect so to speak. Sour as in skunk. sweet as in minkish or cat type lures. The way we test a lure, is in setting a line- lori would use that lure, I would use others. Next day, we would reverse that (to eliminate technique).
On fox- 30 years ago, I'd catch 10 or so fox to my coyotes- so about 1 to 10 ratio to coyotes. And non were were disturbed in trap. By "best" fox farms, were also my best coyote farms.
15 or so years ago, for a few years, my fox catch was in the mid 30s- about a 1 in 3 ratio. and I'd get a few ripped apart each year. Again, my best fox farms, were also my best coyote farms.
About 10 years ago, the fox starting dropping off to mid teens- so about a 1 in 6 ratio- and haven't had a fox molested in years. Again best for one best for the other.
I do know that catching a coyote in a set, means nothing as to if I catch a fox there or visa versa. I had one trap a few years ago, where I caught 4 fox and 3 coyotes over 10 days and it was like fox today, coyote tomorrow, etc
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Post by trappnman on Jul 24, 2021 21:06:11 GMT -6
Im confused. Say you set 10 traps- and caught 5 coyotes at each in 2 weeks, other sets didn't produce- so 1 to 1 on traps set- but only 20% success rate in sets.
Whats that really tell you? If I have to assign success rates, wouldn't it be more accurate as to methods and location success- to either be 1 on 1 with locations- that is every location catches coyotes whether 1 trap or 4...or trap nights which is the criteria I use most-
I remember being told once by 1080 after catching 10 female coyotes in the spring, which astounded me as I thought more males, and asking 1080 what it meant- and he said- it meant you caught 10 female coyotes......
that comment is in effect my mantra......
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Post by trappnman on Jul 24, 2021 19:02:19 GMT -6
I remember you posted several years ago, that after our discussions, you increased your urine use and saw an increase in success rates?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 24, 2021 19:00:03 GMT -6
.......to start a thread or add too one. Be nice to have some serious conversations without all the nonsense
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Post by trappnman on Jul 24, 2021 18:58:10 GMT -6
I see zero advantage unless all season ADC work.
Ive caught 2 of my collared coyotes the same season, and 2 the following year- with the same lures and baits.
Add in at least here Im thinking 60% or more are juveniles, and I think I recall the average age of our posted collared coyotes when needed, was 2.5 years.
on that 1 to 1.2...whats the timeline, until pulled? Wouldn't trap nights be more accurate?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 23, 2021 7:46:13 GMT -6
I feel your pain. So many of the 1 crop farms (corn) harvest, manure, plow all within a few days. And you try to stay out of the way- but with such big equipment its hard.
but I have 2 things going for me- those that chop corn, and thats a lot of dairies, tend to leave the plowing til late season or spring......so I can drive on the corn fields. Or they bale the stalks and leave until winter in many cases, so I again can drive.
Beans are slowly changing. 10-15 years ago, no one plowed bean fields in the fall- worst you got was nitrous being added, and that still left the fields open, and I love bean fields- takes a lot, lot of wet, to make a picked bean field impassable, as long as you keep moving,m and stop on even a slight incline. I set a lot of traps in bean fields for 2 reasons- 1) most bean fields here have weed fingers in the fields, or small corners with unpicked beans. Both are good set ups, and bean duff makes a good quick blendable pattern set. My preferred setting spots are bean field edges.
But every year it seems, I see more bean fields fall plowed- and that sucks.
Deer is king here too (along with turkey), we are smack dab in big buck country- but even my farms that lease or have hunters, allow me to trap. On the lease lands, I stay clear of the woods and everyone is happy. I;ve had farms that leased, and the hunters didn't want me..until 3-5 years later and the landowner calls...say, the hunters have been seeing lots of coyotes on the cams, can I come....
and the farmers that just let people hunt- they tell the hunters (and I've had hunters come up to me and ask where my traps are cause they have strict orders as one said "not to F with my trapper, cause you will go not him") they have a trapper and he will be staying.
I have 4 damn deer openers during my season- 5 if you count bow- youth season late october, 1st season week in nov. 2nd season 3rd week in nov, then muzzle loaders. Worst thing is having ot wear orange for all of that.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 23, 2021 7:30:06 GMT -6
I wonder how many realize how important visuals are to a coyotes curiosity. As an fyi, research shows that more prey is located first visually than either by scent of noise.
Most know about using bones at the set- but how many use visuals away from the set?
I started out using old bones, and would use them at flat sets, their curved nature worked well with a walktrough.
But had too many. or at least more than I liked- take the bone (esp if lured) and not work the set. So I started using them away from the set.
I've got a collection of skulls, hip bones, etc that embarrasses me, esp on opening day when it looks like an old time bone wagon going down the road and I often wonder what people think- a man, a woman, a dog and a truck loaded with skulls....
I use one at most sets, until I run out. I like them 25-30 feet from the set, and often either have the bone as part of a triangle with 2 sets, or between 2 sets. I can see a bone from an incredible distance away, and a coyote can as well. The thought is to get him there, and his innate suspicion of new things will keep him in the area trying to figure it out, and he will work the sets while there. I'm convinced this is true, far too many personal examples of a bad location becoming better once a skull was added. And I often have a skull moved, and a coyote in the trap.
But a guy can find only so many skulls- Ive a couple bone piles I can pick through each fall, but I never have enough. Listened to a radio interview with Slim a couple of seasons ago and he was talking visuals, and mentioned that if you didn't have a bone, just put dirt in a white plastic bag, that it would serve the same purpose. And it does indeed. In fact, once last year and once the year before, because of farming practices we were forced to set into brush and tall grass.. .so I tied a white bag in one of the bushes about 20 feet from set. Bingo.
I did have one location thats a very good location, I always put 4 traps in the bottom big waterway complex running up to a pasture on 1 side and a big dairy on the other where I used to set a trap up top, and caught a coyote there occasionally (but nothing like the bottom which is why I quit setting it) and we decided to throw in what we call a "stinger set". not the best location, but a poke and hope type spot. It was right on the peak on the hill, and a skull would not be visible in any direction. So I figured what the heck, and pounded in a 36" rebar and set the skull on it. By happenstance, I set in on the rebar at its pivot point, and the next day I could see it slowly spinning around. I thought this is either going to be my best set ever and every coyote for 5 miles will see it and come...or its going ot scare everything away. Never caught one there, but caught plenty in bottom so not sure if it was the set or location (I think personally the set but if the only set maybe....)and haven't tried that again. But surely the bags in the brush had motion, so I don't know......
speaking of visuals- my gopher traps are wired to metal elec fences posts turned to the triangle piece is on top, and them most have the triangle orange, with orange flagging tape. Btw flagging tape at or near a set doesn't bother coyotes. In Wy after the 1st snow, every st once found got flagging tape on the very bush used as a backing and it deterred coyotes not at all. With those gopher traps, I get gophers dug up and eaten out of the trap on a regular basis. I've toyed with the idea of setting on my gopher farms with a stake at each set- loose in ground so no entanglement. We've had coyotes and badgers go through a field, eating every gopher there- Lori calls it gopher on a stick. You would think, that a stake would be a bonus- carried a few stakes last year and tried them at a marginal location, but no success but not a true test in any form.
Comments?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 23, 2021 6:59:43 GMT -6
I didn't realize your farms were so small.
Most of my farms are bigger operations in the 750- 1500 range, some bigger but even the small farms are 250-350 acres.
I don't run into your problems- the only times I've been denied permission is if other trappers are there. 1080 had a good thought here- if someone denies you permission, move on as they don't have enough coyotes to matter. I know that doesn't apply to you
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Post by trappnman on Jul 23, 2021 6:56:17 GMT -6
kinda....
But let me frame this a different way......
lets say you can see coyote tracks as if they were painted on the ground. Would all places those tracks went, be the "best" place to set? in other words, are all places along that track line, equal in their potential?
Could I walk along with you, and point to places here and there, would you set those up with the same confidence of places along the track line you deemed better or best?
Lets imagine further, that those painted track lines of every coyote in the area, fade a bit each day- so that you now have bright lines, and various degrees of faded lines.
Would all those tracks be equal?
And wouldn't a place where you got lots of brights lines, and lots of faded lines- be a more advantageous place to set, over a location where there was a couple of faded lines, or even 1 bright line?
so boiled down-
"the spot" theory is to find the locations where you have lots of bright lines. It gives you, imo, a much higher % of coyotes, since as we all know and 1080 told me this more than once "empty traps are killing you". And the chances of finding such brighht line locations, increases with the size of the attractant.
Now- can you set on one of those singleton lines, and wait it out and catch that coyote. Most likely. I did it for years. But man, those empty traps were killing me.
With the constant rain, snow, freeze, thaw that my seasons have become, every day is precious, so I do want to be in a relative speaking manner in and out.
Let me be very honest, on many of my hill farm locations- 1080 wouldn't get out of the truck to set up. They are NOT what he would consider macro stall out points- but, imo, where I now set, I set micro stall out locations- and by that I mean, based on observations by me all summer, by the farmers, by gossip, and yes by my coyote knowledge such as it is, I have a pretty good idea of where those local coyotes are most of the time and will be during season. Even if its 1 coyote, I feel that within his range, there ARE locations that will produce better.
So that lets say you go on a farm, and you find 10 places with tracks- surely you deduce what are the better setup points, and not just follow the advice "see a track, set a trap"?
I know you do. So let me ask this: whats your criteria for picking locations along a track line?
I suspect we agree here......
so you aaren't really rejecting the theory, you are modifying it for your circumstances... just like I've done with my hilly farm lines.
I'm enjoying the discussion...gets the old gray matter working.....
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Post by trappnman on Jul 22, 2021 7:55:45 GMT -6
let me clear up a few things-
It was never said to not set on sign- in fact just the opposite. 1080s advise to me was this: get permission on EVERY farm you come across. Then when setting- check out each farm, and if no fresh, abundant sign, move on to the next.
This is for me hard advise to follow. When I tell a farmer I'm going to trap his farm, I feel obligated to do so. So I do. But as 1080 pointed out...if when you get there no fresh sign, whats the point? So the advise was never to not set on sign, but instead set on plenty of sign, the more the better.
Perhaps some of the confusion lays in my explanations- stall out isn't a place where they go from cruising to a walk-
its where they stop. Stall out. Rest. Observe. Relax.
and stall out points aren't definitive in that they always exist in the same place, or the same time frame, or the same set of habitat/circumstances. They are mobile- they change with the seasons, they change with the weather, they change with habitat.
So- the advise isn't to not set sign- the advise is rather than set 12 traps 2x2 in 6 scattered locations around a farm- set 4 at ONE location. The location with the most sign. tracks that go multiple directions, scat in varying degrees of age. Lots of sign. Fresh sign.
How can that fail? Every farm has stall out locations. Mamy will have travelways involved. So where and why do they stall out?
Let me back up. I cannot, at least have not been able to, to use the system in full on all my lines. I have 2 distinct types of farms. 1) Flat land large dairys or beef usually hay and corn and 2) small farms with a few cows, hay/corn/beans/pastures and lots and lots of deep coulees and hills,
1) These farms are right out of the book stall out locations and a joy to set up and run. Large herds of cows, big manure/compost piles, lots of short grass hay (remember voles #1 food here) and LIMITED habitat. Many of my set ups here, are right next to barns and pastures. But its not just go in and throw traps where you see footprints going down a lane. Did that for years, and caught coyotes and stayed for a couple of weeks to do so.
Cause sure coyotes came by at my spoke type locations- but how often? Every day? Every few days? Every couple of weeks (that old cry). Wouldn't it be better to go to the center of the wheel? And from the center- where does the sign converge? Where is that spot where approaching coyotes to the attractant, stop to observe, to look it over before barging in? Its not at the attractant- by then his single minded brain is on the attractant itself- he might or might not work the set.
But that spot he observes from- he spends some time there. As do others. Why would you not set there?
Its like if I want to see Bob, and a friend says Bob was at hardware store yesterday. Good I say, and go sit by the hardware store. Now- I might see Bob that day, the next day, next week or never...... but if I go to where Bob lives or works.....
These locations are easy to find. And 2-3 traps does the job of many more, in far less time.
2) But here is the pickle. I don't have many big man made attractions here- too hilly, too rough. I have 2 things going for me here- a truly impressive system of waterways that go from farm to farm, and the small farms with mixed crops have field roads (row croppers often don't as they don't need access to back fields). The big disadvantage- way too much natural habitat in the form of woods, set asides, brushlands. So finding the 1 spot, becomes harder. Keep in mind that the reason to try to find large attractions and thus larger stall out areas, is that those places get more coyotes using them to begin with, and yes they do fill in.
Since I can't find one spot on a location, instead being a farm of multiple similar/identical locations, all separated to the edges of the farm, one is forced to set up a couple spots...not the 3 or 4 of past years, but often 2 here, and then 2 there. And these are the locations where you get 1 or 2- and thats it.
But even then, I keep the stall out theory in mind- where on the farm would coyotes come (there MUST be a reason, or I don't set), and where would they in that area, observe things, stop for a bit..take a good pee and a dump and relax just for a bit?
I know from my experience- open travelways with no side cover, while having sign, don't produce like they should- observation of where the tracks are going or coming from, does.
So what has the stall out done for me?
in the past, I ran 100 traps to that roughly 100 coyotes. Thats setting 100 traps, baiting, luring 100 traps, tending 100 traps (possum/skunk/coon catches double and triple setting mostly travelways) so its constant remaking of sets. And with the horrible weather of the last forever it seems (10" snow few days after setting up last year) thats a lot of sets to run and keep operating.
Now- I run 50 to 60 traps at the most. Instead of having to access 3-4 way points on a farm, its 1. And half the sets to put in the ground, half the sets to maintain, half the cost of lure/urine/bait/peat etc.
Half the time to run the line. On a poor day I'm home by 2 or so, a good day home by dark. And thats skinning everything in field (your tow hitch skinner idea is perfect, have used it now for several years) Makes life a lot easier.
and the kicker is the same amount of coyotes. On 2 flat land lines I'm basically in and out in a bit more than a week- my other two coulee lines, I need to say a bit longer- but nothing like the 2-3 weeks as in the past. ----------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand- you were better off setting on sign, not the stall out?
Whats your definition of a stall out? My very definition in the visual examination of a stall out spot, is the abundance of sign.
Year round observation will only give you clues on large, multiple group permanent attractions. Areas, interests, needs are vastly different in every season. 1080s advise to me was know where the coyotes where in your areas- not the farms per se- but the area. Where the pups are, how many family groups? Sirens and calling pinpoints this- and I'll be honest, I don't do that. I should. I'm betting my % would skyrocket.
The second bit of advise- and I don't do it cause I'm lazy and don't want to- but have every farmer you know call you when they have a dead calf, and you come and pick it up and put it where you want it. Do this all spring and summer. Bait it, and they will come. I do have my farms in many cases, put the dead calves where I'd like them, and several save them if it happens just before I come or during. Move the cheese to move the mouse.... It helps for sure.
And something else I do- if a marginal spot doesn't produce right away (by day 3) I'll bring a couple of coyote carcasses there. Skinning in the field is imo the way to go- quick, easy, done when you get home and the blood spot and carcass do cause stall outs.
I trapped coyotes for 30 years- this method of management was an eyeopener for me.
Mindset. Thats the silver bullet.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 22, 2021 6:50:41 GMT -6
I didn't use them enough to get the finer point. Wiley lent me a bunch of Sterlings and Jakes when I went our west the 1st time. Liked them both, but the Sterling seemed to be so finely machined, that any piece of sand made setting a pain.
Have you looked at that Bridger #3 dogless? I hate the Bridger dog on, but these dogless seem to do the trick for me-
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Post by trappnman on Jul 22, 2021 6:46:03 GMT -6
That prednisone is a blessing and a curse. It got my MG under control, but I gained weight like crazy, and my doctors think that the prednisone was the cause of my quick cataract growth. I've gotten the weight back down quite a bit, but I'd still like to lose a few more.
Glad to see you back. Missed you.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 21, 2021 8:02:45 GMT -6
I used some Jakes in WY one time, and have to say they are indeed the Cadillac of coyote traps. But I'd cry every time one got plowed up or run over by a tractor. I'm guessing they might hold up well to being run over- that is one thing I like about that bridger dogless- I've had several run over, and all undamaged, whereas some traps like the monntanas, tweak beyond repair.
Callers aren't real big in my country- but more so the hunters either with dogs, or big drives late in the winter. But the areas they are in, aren't my trapping areas per se- but I'm sure it does have an effect.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 9, 2021 9:22:25 GMT -6
I agree on the peat- I've used shale a bit and thats pretty darn good, but not accessable here.
I dig my beds the same, but instead of stepdown its more dished- with a large guide tight to loose jaw. Different solutions to the same problem.
I also am firm in my belief, that you need to use copious amounts of peat at and around the set- te smell and feel and look before te set, almost eliminated any digging or pattern refusals.
I've had dirtholes with peat under water for a couple of days- water goes, and only the top layer is wet, rest bone dry.
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