|
Post by briankroberts on Jan 24, 2005 7:42:19 GMT -6
I agree 100%, then modified with enough other stuff to take whatever abuse a Coyote can dish out.
.....................B.................
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 7:46:18 GMT -6
Yes- most dogs are fox OR coyote size...yes, thats true. and I see what my offset Montanas do to fox. And coon.
One trap for all?
Are you telling me that your fox- in your heavy #3 and #4 are undamaged?
And before you say mine aren't modified....I talked to many that use the 4 coil fully modified versions with shockspringsand get the same results on fox and coon as I do.
btw- I don't even thing a fox barely compresses the shock spring at all- at least not the good ones with heavy springs. Didn't we just read of a fox on a a shockspring in a trap where the wax wasn't even broken?.
I would absolutely NOT want to see a beagle or a jack russell sizes dog in a big 4 coil trap all night- and I won't if I can help it. __________________________________________
And this attitude on cats- they are the FARMERS cats and HE WANTS THEM THERE FOR A REASON!!!
and the reason isn't to sit on the barn stoop and be fat...
__________________________________________
Cheap for using smaller unmodified traps- not sure how you meant this? Or why you meant it- please explain.
I didn't see this brought up here so not sure what context you are placing on it.
You surely aren't saying a unmodifed 1.75 causes MORE damage than a full modified 4 coil #4?
Because frankly- of the fully modified #2 Bridgers I have (a couple even have JC shock springs), the unmodifed 1.75 and the Montanas- its easy to see which trap causes less damage to animals.
Even the dreaded BMPs make that point.
_________________________________________
Joel- good posts.
1080 and others- you loudly complain that the "easterners" don't understand you and your ways- yet you seem to delibrately misunderstand the domestic situation out here. Your attitude of what "you'd do" is silly- you might as well hang up your traps.
Seriously- have you ever been on a farm? Do you understand what FARM country is like?
To you understand land sharing?
do you really understand- the farmers own the land- not me?
And real farmers have dogs and cats for a variety of reasons- all of them not my business
And its their 500 acres and if their dog follows the tractor to the back forty every day- I live with that.
I don't have the luxury of trapping tied up gov leases, etc- I'm out there with the hunters and the farmers...their land, their rules.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 7:47:29 GMT -6
laminations are the key?
to what?
|
|
|
Post by Stef on Jan 24, 2005 8:39:41 GMT -6
Yes Steve laminations are the key for domestics and coyotes or foxes. I agree! I had problems this year like I never had with dogs and now... I don't worry anymore. I know exactly the law here in my province concerning dog catches and I don't worry anymore. Farmers on the farms I trap hate dogs running loose on their land. So when I have the permission to trap coyotes on a farm. All traps I set on the farm is coyote traps and I'm trapping coyotes. So if a dog get caught... What the *%*)_ I'm going to do... I will released him and that's all. The dog is not supposed to be there. I'm a trapper who set traps for coyotes. Nobody can say " a bad word " to me about it... NOBODY! BTW.... I caught a 3rd dog the other day on a farm I trap. I told the farmer and he told me.... when they will all learn how it is to be trapped in a coyote trap maybe they won't come anymore on my land chasing my cows in the fields he said with a smile ;D I was so pissed that these dogs contaminated my traps and destroyed some of my good set trap locations that sometime I was thinking to bring out the POWER RAM No more dog problem with that tool!!! And to tell you the truth... I have the right to do it legally. .................................. Final! Stef
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 9:01:50 GMT -6
I'm not worried about LEGAL problems- I'm 100% legal in all I do trapping, I carry tools to release incidentals and I don't worry about strays or hunters dogs other than choosing locations.
But this is a very small area. EVERYONE knows me. And countrary to some opinions- thats a good thing!
They know that I take care their land and watch out for THEIR animals.
Half of trapping and KEEPING your territory is PR work. I don't send cards or try to help my farmers in field work- but they know that I treat them with respect and am grateful for being allowed to trap on their land. I do them good and in most cases they never even know I am there.
Respect.
Its not a constant battle like some think it is- I set my traps, tend my line and go about my business.
If I didn't consider domestics, or modify my line for others land use- I'd lose territory.
Enough on the dogs- if you have them, you adjust however you want to make things right for you.
I'll do the same.
Its all %-
|
|
|
Post by Zagman on Jan 24, 2005 9:03:02 GMT -6
....knew that would rustle feathers.....
Not sure if you were aiming the cat point at me....I let every one of them go.....every one. Never killed a cat in my life.....and that's the truth. Honest! You are right, the farmers have them around for a reason, but even then, being farmers, they often say to me that they could certainly spare a few.....I don't risk it and let them go and, to quote Tom Krause again, "They'll hit the ground on all fours, I betcha!"
I caught 9 dogs and cats this year, all in #3's, let them all go, did not lose a farm nor pay a veterinarian's bill.
I think there is some confusion on 4-coiled traps vs stock....and the "damage" thereof.
Yes, I am saying that I have created NO MORE damage with these traps than I have with the smaller ones, same as when I went from 1.75's to #2's....I still believe with target animals, this gets down to the individual animal.
If there is a problem on fox, it's that I tend to catch them too high, above the pad and on the leg bone. Same with a #2 or #1.75 if you get them up there.....
But, with the offsets, on a smaller boned animal like a fox OR cat, there is often compression, but not breakage. 4-coiled or not.
The wide-faced jaws with increased spring power prevents the sliding/cutting action that I used to witness when my traps were not laminated, were only 2-coiled, and the chain hookup was on the side vs. on the bottom.
Put a 1/4" rope around your bisep and have someone pull both sides....it digs and cuts into your arm and hurts.
Now, put a 1" rope around the same spot and have that person pull again.....doesn't dig in as much and sorta spreads the pressure out.....
Steve, this is the area that used to cause so many arguments and the defense of the smaller traps and how you'd say you don't want to hear it from anyone who has used the 1.75 in a casual manner or heard it about it from a friend, as they are not qualified.
Same thing here, while this is my first year at 100% big traps, I have been gradually working them in, was 50/50 last year, and now 100%. And all my numbers #2's are/were equally tricked out and powered up.
Further, it has often been mentioned in DEFENSE of the smaller traps, that we are really only talking about a difference in jaw spread of 1/2"-3/4".....
So, why now, is there a view that a #3 is such a BIGGER trap than the 1.75? It's only got a larger jaw spread of 3/4th"......
I have screamed and yelled that I have caught more coyotes in 1.75's at this point than #3's......but for me, I am better off in the mud and snow and slop to use a bigger trap. That 3/4th inch just might make the difference in my grabbing a couple of toes vs. a toenail and a loss.....
There are folks on here with FAR MORE experience than myself that feel the same way about powered-up, tricked out traps.
Just like most folks have not used 1.75's to the extent that you have, and therefore, should keep quiet, I am not sure how you can say with such vigor that those that power-up are in the wrong?
This argument has been going on and on and on for a long time....same as offset vs. regular jaws.
Clearly, there are tons of variables in all locales and everyone seems to have different results with the same equipment.
Makes it fun, I guess....
For me, having come full circle, I have found what works for me.....in the East, on a 24-hour check, with people, hunters, horse riders, dogs, cats, raccoons, grey fox, skunk, 'possums, etc.
One thing I have noticed this year, the #3 Bridgers I have with the double laminations (Canadian Jaw) perform EVEN BETTER than the single laminations, even when caught up well above the pad, there is NO cutting.....none.
Now, I may want to bump it up a notch and double laminate traps in my arsenal......
If one level of lamination is good, then two apparently may be better. But powering up may be necessary as well....
I will say it again.....if I had a better mix of fox and coyotes, I would use the tricked out #2's solely, early season, and go to the #3 once the slop starts.
I dont agonize over losing a raccoon in the bigger traps ....trust me, I want to hold them and I get aggravated when I lose them, mostly because that trap was out of commission that night and may have missed a coyote.
I guess the way I feel about the raccoon is the way you USED to feel about missing 3-4-5 coyotes a day...you will get them at another time.
I trap for such a short time, I need to get them the first time through, or I may not get another crack at them.
And if I get a dog or cat prior to the coyote, I can sleep at night, look the farmer in the eye, and keep on plugging away......
Sorry about calling anyone cheap......I think you said it best when you used to look at traps as "good traps" or "bad traps".....if the animal was there in the morning, it was a GOOD trap. This says nothing about the shape of the animal, though......
To all of us and what we use and what we are confident/hard-headed about, we are all using GOOD traps that work for us.....
Zagman
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 9:32:31 GMT -6
nah- the cat thing wasn't for you.
ruffle feathers? ... only the cheap part- I AM cheap...after all, I'm a fur trapper....
but that had nothing to do with first choosing 1.75s.
Steve, this is the area that used to cause so many arguments and the defense of the smaller traps and how you'd say you don't want to hear it from anyone who has used the 1.75 in a casual manner or heard it about it from a friend, as they are not qualified.
Where did I say this?
I went back and looked and cannot find this- so are yo uperhaps referring to past debates? If so- the ONLY thing I would have said close to that is I don't want to hear from a causul user how 1/75 can't take coyotes
Im not sure I understand where I said that others couldn't talk about 1.75s? If I said it- and I scrolled back on a few posts and didn't see it....I meant you or others no harm.
My only counter point was to your statement that "unmodifed 1.75s cause MORE damage."
I simply pointed out that the coyote bmps say different as does my own experience.
Does that mean bigger traps cause more damage?
That I do not know.
Here is the dilema- as you are well aware- 1.75 are pretty nice to everything- cats, dogs, coyotes, fox, coon, possum, etc. My dnr guy on the coyote tests made it a major point in his presentations- the lack of foot damage to the coyotes.
In reality- it's an all around land trap that gets points in every catagory- but as we both know- is not the best COYOTE trap out there.
I know that. I've mentioned that to you when we first met-
So I have been slowly trying a few other traps- the 2 that I have the most experience with are the Bridger #2 4 coiled laminated offsets and the Montana #3 offset.
some of the Bridgers have shocksprings.
Both dandy coyote traps- the Montanas getting the kudos here on several points.
But the Bridger in fact failed on several other points- its performance on domestics, and damage to coon, fox.
I still use them- but I won't be buyng anymore. 3 years of their use has shown me that. My opinion only, of course.
The Montanas were my next experiment- I love them for coyotes.
Yes- these are 2 coiled and unlaminated.
They were not kind to fox or coon. Loss was not a problem- you don't lose coon in bigger offsets- or at least I never have lost a coon in either the Bridgers or the Montanas.
I have talked to several trappers that ARE using the laminated, offset, 4 coiled Montanas- and their results were the same as mine on coon and fox.
On domestics- I caught 1 dog- irish setter- in a Montana-released with no visible damage. 2 cats- 50/50 here.
I will buy more Montanas- and I am going to the laminated models.
But laminations don't prevent fox mishaps and I wonder...really wonder..what would happen to a small dog.. as you say, a fox sized dog.
Maybe nothing-
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2005 9:46:05 GMT -6
Just like most folks have not used 1.75's to the extent that you have, and therefore, should keep quiet, I am not sure how you can say with such vigor that those that power-up are in the wrong?
Where did I say it AT ALL...let along with vigor?
Big Traps = Good!
My only point- you don't need softcatches to get access with "kind to animal" traps- Others do fine- the 1.75 shines here.
as do many other traps.
|
|
|
Post by Stef on Jan 24, 2005 9:57:18 GMT -6
Can't say more? That's for sure you need 4 coils on these modified traps. This year I did catch a couple coyotes in the Montana. Some were 4 coiled OS laminated ¼" rod and some were stock OS with only base plates added. I had a LOT better foot looking in my 4 coiled, laminated jaws Montana than the stock one (all of them had center swiveling). To me, 4 coiling #3 traps are the only way to go. Yes I caught dogs and cats with them before and I did catch dogs and cats before in #1½ or #1¾ stock traps and to tell you the truth... I prefer seeing them in front of me in a well modified traps. They are there waiting and that's all and there's no damaged to them to talk about finally. Take a large 75+ dogs by the 2 front toes stock trap in a #1½ or #1¾... I'll bet that the dog will have cuts or missing toes if those toes are frozen or blood circulation shut. Anyway, one good thing about all these trap testing and the one that we'll have to be used in 2007 here in Canada... The only steel foot trap so far who was approved is the Bridger #3 double laminated like Zag told us above and the Belisle and yes we can use power RAM and choke spring and #220 or #330 on land etc... And when I have permission to trap a property... I take the traps that I can legally use and if a dog or a cat put his head through a #220 or their feet in a #3.... I just don't care about what the owner of the dog will say. His dog is not supposed to be there and Try to bring me to court for fun.... the complaint will become DEAD on the authority desk like it did this year. Good day... going checking a few traps now! Stef
|
|
|
Post by vttrapper on Jan 24, 2005 11:21:52 GMT -6
Zag,
was the double lamination with 2 1/4 inch rods or something different?
frank
|
|
|
Post by Zagman on Jan 24, 2005 12:10:09 GMT -6
Not sure, got them from OGorman.....I think it is 3/16th"....
Zag
|
|
|
Post by blakcoyote on Jan 24, 2005 12:52:37 GMT -6
Sorry about the cat comment if it got some upset.Most farms around here have a ton of cats,and the ones I trap on really dont care if some get caught,but I also dont catch alot of them either using the higher pan tensions.Most farm cats arent vaccinated for distemper or rabies and I think farmers realize this.I have released a few in my time,but over the years thats changed with the comments from the farmers,you could have shot it.But Steve is right,farmers do like there cats around,but too many is too many,and alot understand the chances of disease in them.I'm not saying this is true everywhere,I could go to the next county over and find a whole different attitude.There also could be a difference between hang around the barn or close to it compared to just plain feral cats,that roam freely.Keeping informed and communicating with the farmer or landowner is one of the biggest assets when it comes to PR with them.But if I ever get on a farm that wants no cats killed,they will be released,it's that simple for me.
I started modifying my traps,for one thing in the beginning,and that was the fact I worked day shift at the time and started work at 6am,and our state laws then you couldnt check traps before 6am.You could check from 6am-8pm.It's changed now,I think its 4am now.But at the time knowing I wouldnt be checking untill 3pm after work,I wanted a little extra insurance that my catch would still be there,just being new to canines and reading about how tough coyotes are on equipment,and only knowing about coon trapping mostly and an occassional fox at that time,and I settled on the 1.75 NW,base plated,lams,and instead of 4 coils,just swapped the factory springs with 2# music wire,14"chain with 3 swivels and double lap link for double staking.I've learned alot since then,and I'm still learning,and hope to keep learning.
|
|
|
Post by NattyBumpo on Jan 24, 2005 15:38:00 GMT -6
Wow thats the second post I have seen about having trapping time limits. I didnt know that they had those in many states.
|
|