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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 21, 2005 15:36:36 GMT -6
the softcatch trap. Its the only trap to use above ground. Period. Mike, What are you trying to prove with that statement, the BMPs don't even go that far. Who are you trying to appease, the anti's, landowners, other trappers? Just curious.
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Post by yota on Jan 21, 2005 15:46:35 GMT -6
I see nuthin has changed !!
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Post by Edge on Jan 21, 2005 15:48:11 GMT -6
So how much fur,how many sets......what are your temps;conditions,species.......etc.As I have said many times on this forum,if you disagree with me,you have something to teach me,so teach.
Unlike some trappers I advise on what I KNOW from doing FIRST HAND.....or on what I have SEEN in person with my own EYES.......having seen the mighty soft catch in person,being used on a long line,in harsh conditions,I found it to be a joke.The only reason I am even considering trying some in the future is because
A)They could have made some changes in the last 8 yrs,and B)That soft catch stuff really sells to the fans.
Edge
PS If you dont want to post the answers,you can PM me;I would also like to know how many days of your season are subzero,and your average fur season rainfall.
There are 2 trappers on this forum who have given the softcatch a good review,with good experience behind them,so come on,be nunmber 3.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 21, 2005 18:11:29 GMT -6
I'm back! Trapper mike a coyote with no water durring the summer time goes down very fast, so there is no torture as you call it. It's like trapping them with coni bears, they don't last long in temps above 80 degrees, very humane. Next with your light dirt covering thats needed to get the softie to work properly, try going less than 1/2" with winds in my open plains area that regularly gets 25 mph-40 mph in all seasons of the year, you will end up with exsposed traps and few coyotes. Next if you think trapping is torture, hang it up bud and find a new endevor, trappers create balanced wildlife populations, healthy to boot.
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Post by trappermike on Jan 21, 2005 18:22:19 GMT -6
Look i didn't say trapping was torture just some of the ways its done. NO IM NOT HANGING IT UP, theres just a few ways that im not going to say is humane cause its not. This is not going nowhere so i will
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Post by markymark on Jan 21, 2005 18:29:39 GMT -6
I have spoken with Glenn Sterling Sr. Many times about the 500 it should be out in 6-8 weeks. All sales will go through Sterling Fur in Ohio. Jr has been remodeling his house so he's a little behind right now. It will be a real sweat heart. He was prompted to build this trap for the eastern states. They will also be coming out with a 700 for Mt. Lion and wolf towards the end of the year. Sr. has very little intrest in this trap since his retirement and a love for building air planes. Hope this helps.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 21, 2005 18:36:04 GMT -6
lets get back on track a little here- or more to the point...simmer down.
Mike- I know for a fact- a steel jaw trap can be used humanely. I trapped both otters and coyotes for te Minnesota DNR in radio programs. All captured were released unharmed. Of the otter I caught- al lwere vet checked- and 1 had damage where she was caught by a rear foot and she bit- once- that foot. I imagine when first being caught. In that case, she broke her little toe and it was surgically fixed by the vet. These were in unpadded #11 (otter)and unpadded 1.75 Duke regular jawed traps (coyote).
As others have showed- many other traps also qualify with similar results- and these results are backed up by the BMPS.
So while softcatch work- they aren't the only thing that works and they aren't necesarily the best.
Regarding check laws- I operate coyote traps on a 24 hour check. If we could go 48 for coyote traps- I'd do it in a flash.
I think a 48 hour check adds many coyotes to a season.
Keep in mind- the states that have longer check laws have them in place for a reason. I accept that states right to choose-
I'm not my fellow trappers mom- and neither is anyone else. As free humans we make moral choices- as long as its legal- its up to the individual.
What I wouldn't do- others wouldn't hesitate.
and mike- you'll never get banned for disagreeing as long as its relatively civil.
Those that get banned seldom get banned for content- they get banned for attitude.
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Post by coyote on Jan 21, 2005 18:41:48 GMT -6
[quote author=trappnman Keep in mind- the states that have longer check laws have them in place for a reason. I accept that states right to choose- I'm not my fellow trappers mom- and neither is anyone else. As free humans we make moral choices- as long as its legal- its up to the individual. [/quote] good graces, Steve, you ARE a conservative!!
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Post by trappnman on Jan 21, 2005 18:46:34 GMT -6
you...you...you take that back!
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Post by coyote on Jan 21, 2005 18:58:01 GMT -6
;D
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Post by JWarren on Jan 21, 2005 19:07:58 GMT -6
Mike, I don't know if you know this or not but up to about 15 years ago the majority of Wyoming trappers only checked every 7-10 days. When the 72 hours law came into effect most of the old timers either quit trapping or became outlaws. I personally have a hard time making a 72 hour check so I run snares and bodygrips almost exclusively. We have to cover alot of ground out here to catch anything. Its not like we can run a 20 mile loop before work and expect a good catch. In summary, most trappers were put out of business by the 72 hr check, right or wrong. A 24 hour check would end the use of footholds for almost all law abiding trappers in Wyoming. Trappers know this and the Game and Fish Department knows this and that is why we have a 72 hour check law.
So as they say "live and let live".
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Post by Planes & Poison on Jan 21, 2005 19:18:39 GMT -6
trappermike, I understand that you, like Bob, are wowed by the softcatch trap. It works great for you, in your conditions the way you utilize it.
I've used the softcatch trap, and won't go back unless I need live coyotes with "perfect feet." I'm in two businesses, one for dead coyotes to benefit livestock, and the other as a fur producing longliner. I need to hold the highest percentage of coyotes I catch, and can't afford losses. I don't have time to mess with an inferior piece of equipment. Yes, I know, "If it's inferior than why do professionals use them?" Because those professionals put up with their flaws for the sake of taking coyotes with perfect feet for live market purposes.
As far as the cruelty statement, that just sounds like you're regurgitating a load of animal rights propaganda. Coyotes sitting in traps for 72 hours aren't starving to death, or dying of thirst. I've read studies (I'll try to track them down for you) about coyotes wearing radio collars that laid up for days (I think 9 was the longest instance recorded) without moving during periods of extreme weather.
So a trapper running a 72 hour check (bear in mind, many of the coyotes caught aren't even in the traps for a full 72 hours) aren't suffering. I've approached hundreds of live coyotes in traps that I've checked on a 72 hour interval, and they're not suffering. No sunken eyes, or dismal pawing at the ground that some speak of. They're lively and healthy like a coyote in a trap you're checking every 24 hours. If a 72 hour check was so harsh and devastating to a coyote, the species wouldn't be flourishing like it is.
And as far as foot damage from softcatch traps being leaps and bounds ahead of standard steel jawed traps. I don't buy it. I saw a lot of damage with softcatch traps when used stock. After I used them like I was told by said professionals, I had zero damage, but at that point I'd defeated the purpose of the trap due to it's efficiency being horrendous.
I run full modified Bridger #3's. They're 1/4" laminated, 1/4 lug offset (not a sheared offset), baseplated, 4-coiled, and have a 24" chain with three swivels and an inline shockspring. A coyote's foot from one of these traps after 72 hours looks as good (in some cases better) than one out of a softcatch checked every 24 hours.
Now, you can tell me the animal is suffering from pressure necrosis and that the foot will look like pizza after a week or two. You're right, if I take that coyote, stick him in a 36"x36" cage and watch, I'm sure that his foot will look like that. Let that coyote (or bobcat) go, and it runs around like normal, it gets blood back into it's foot and the healing is quite impressive. In some colder temperatures the animal will loose toes (as seen on recaptured bobcats), but the animal does't lose the entire foot/limb.
Even though I trap out west, I still catch a number of dogs. Sheep dogs, pyrenees guard dogs (you'll be thankful for a real trap not a softcatch when you release one of those), lion hounds, etc. One instance I recall was a few December's ago catching a rancher's 40lb border collie. I checked the traps on Wednesday, it snowed that night. I checked again on Saturday and had the dog, no tracks into the catch circle. I released the collie and it limped home. Spring of the following year I'm back on the same ranch doing predator control work and the exact same collie is bouncing in and out of the rancher's truck as he drove across a pasture. I stopped and talked the rancher, and inquired about the dog. He said that the dog limped for a few days or so after being caught, but slowly regained the ability to use that foot. When I last saw the dog, you wouldn't be able to tell that dog from any other.
I think that the reason for the "pizza feet" is directly attributed to the animal's inability to really move and get blood flow and circulation back into the foot.
You can preach that the softcatch traps are the only traps to use. And that 24 hour checks are the only way to operate. But walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you try to paint the world with such a broad brush.
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Post by NattyBumpo on Jan 21, 2005 19:35:58 GMT -6
I use the 1.5 victor softcatch for fox. No yotes here on my line yet. No live market in my state and I do not have to use softcatch traps.
It can be very difficult to get trapping permission in Maryland. We have a very dense population, small properties and free ranging dogs that are pets not wild dogs.
The softcatch has honestly got me onto land that I would otherwise not have, it is the first thing I show farmers when asking new permission. I like to tell farmers that it wont hurt dogs feet if I accidently get one. I also tell them that when I set their property I will be back the next morning. Hey this approach gets me permission at a way better rate than before I tried it.
Why would anyone trapping for the fur market care about feet damage on fox or yotes. There are no monetary deductions for foot damage.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 21, 2005 19:48:46 GMT -6
You made a good point Natty, if the soft catch is used as a tool to gain permission, that is fine by me. Just that we all have different ideas what is ethical, I don't skin feet, therefore am not that concerned if I get an occasional cut, it has more to do with the individual animal, not the trap.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 21, 2005 19:56:44 GMT -6
good point wtmtcur on the recovered feet- the running around ability- plus being able to go somewhere, rest up, lick, etc- in a private, non agitated area, more likely makes a differnce also.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 21, 2005 20:31:53 GMT -6
What it boils down to Mike, is that you are doing what is in your best interest, in your area, no one can argue that part, keep on keeping on bro.
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Post by love2trap on Jan 21, 2005 23:52:13 GMT -6
I'm back! Trapper mike a coyote with no water durring the summer time goes down very fast, so there is no torture as you call it. It's like trapping them with coni bears, they don't last long in temps above 80 degrees, very humane. TC35 - Just how fast do you think a coyote will expire under these conditions? I'm having a real hard time believing that death by dehydration is considered a humane way to die. Please enlighten me... Mark
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Post by coyote on Jan 22, 2005 7:24:22 GMT -6
1080,
I've stayed away from this post until now...
just like you rightfully wish us easterners to butt out of your business, so you should mind your own business with regards to the situations WE must operate in.
I say you wouldn't last too long working YOUR present system here in the eastern US...widespread use of your methods here would likely result in the end of trapping here...at least legal trapping.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 22, 2005 7:25:15 GMT -6
Gosh- a 'goldarn real life cowboy....
I'm real, real tempted to pull the plug on this one- and will it the tone doesn't take an upturn 'ral quick now pardner..
Except- being the unbiased person that we all know me to be (thats a joke son...) I see truth in both sides.
I went east of Madison,WS for the first time in my life 2 years ago. The further east you go you get more populations, more restrictive trapping regulations.
The softcatch trap is a tool- nothing more. If it gets trapping permission for suburban trappers- more power to it.
What is wrong howevr- is to say its the only..how about our old word 1080..animane trap out there. Clearly...Clearly it is not.
Regarding showing it to farmers- most farmers think you need a "bear trap" for coyotes. When you show them a 1.75.."not much bigger than a gopher trap" a farmer once told me or explain the modifications and why...permisison is just as readily granted.
__________________________________________
Those of us out west dont want your padded traps..let alone trap check laws...Because you guys back east have settled for that, now you get to live with coyotes everywhere and no fox...cause NOBODYS going to take large numbers of coyotes checking that little bunch of traps every 24hrs
I believe without a doubt that longer check laws would mean more coyotes- both in the simple math of running more area, traps- but simply becasue I believe the best thing to catch a coyote in a trap with is another cooyte already in a trap.
see separate thread on Fox
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 22, 2005 7:39:54 GMT -6
Loves 2 trap, yes during the summer time, coyotes go down in the heat alot quicker than one might think, I can tell by there feet, what the set location looks like, and observation from ranchers, just how quick a coyote goes down in the heat. Coyotes get stressed fighting a trap, it happens doesn't matter what time of the year all species do, most can handle the stress under normal fur trapping conditions, except real mangy coyotes, alot of them are expired because of there weakened condition. Take a coyote caught at 5am in June temp is high 60's by 10/11am on a gumbo flat temp can get to 90+ degrees, in the summer coyotes and other critters need water everyday, that expire quickly. I have calls at 7am of a coyote in a trap got there at 11:30am coyote was expired, now not all will be this way over all health and hydration and how hard they fight all factor into it.
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