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Post by trappnman on Jan 5, 2015 8:14:48 GMT -6
some credit for what- putting together a bible that portrayed what the churches ruling class at the time, wanted as incentive to join their church?
what made those handful of gospels more "sacred" than the hundreds popular at the time, but not chosen? you might also ask yourself, why the church headquartered itself in Rome?
the church was against birth control, because birth control stopped people from having kids- kids to fill the pews. nothing more, nothing less. Families having 8,10 kids sure made that come true
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 5, 2015 17:51:26 GMT -6
Ok Tman the conspiracy's abound
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Post by PamIsMe on Jan 6, 2015 0:26:43 GMT -6
"..having kids- kids to fill the pews" not to mention to replenish the ranks of Priests and Nuns :-) Every good Catholic family with lots of kids wanted at least one of them to go into church service. We were all disheartened when my friend's sister wanted to become a nun but they wouldn't accept her because she needed a lot of work done on her teeth. She ended up happily married with two kids, and eventually got her teeth fixed.
Unfortunately conspiracies DO abound in probably all religions, especially in the Catholic Church.
Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 6, 2015 5:56:10 GMT -6
Yes they do Pam, yes they do
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Post by trappnman on Jan 6, 2015 9:15:03 GMT -6
its not a conspiracy at all- its simply the truth.
if you want to wear blinders- than giddy up! but it doesn't change what the facts are-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 6, 2015 19:08:38 GMT -6
Tman with all respect facts? please. Whay you proclaim as facts on the issue of why catholic people do not like birth control are well? Not factual at all. This goes back to the very early times when the church didn't worry about butts in the seats and priest or nuns coming to be or money for that matter.
This was long before worrying about priest, nuns, butts in the pews or money and those that have brought up such to condemn the Long standing beliefs of the Catholic Church on the issue.
In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).
Hippolytus of Rome wrote in 255 that "on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful [certain Christian women who had affairs with male servants] want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies9:12).
Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).
The First Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council and the one that defined Christ’s divinity, declared in 325, "If anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1).
Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17).
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Post by PamIsMe on Jan 7, 2015 2:26:55 GMT -6
Well, so the church has always been against masturbation, castration, abortion, contraceptives and lust. And total abstention is the punishment for using those methods instead of bringing new little Catholics into the world.
If every Catholic who wasn't guilty of at least one of those things was excommunicated, I'd venture to say there wouldn't be many Catholics left in the world LOL
cheers, Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 7, 2015 5:54:54 GMT -6
Pam again that is where free will comes I to play:) Yet the point remains some have followed the catholic view on birth control and it is far older of a view than the 30,40,50,60 or 70's.
Again everyone is free to agree or disagree with the views of the church.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 7, 2015 10:21:37 GMT -6
come on TC- at least make an effort at comprehensive reading-
for the sake of procreating offspring
Tman with all respect facts? please. Whay you proclaim as facts on the issue of why catholic people do not like birth control are well? Not factual at all. This goes back to the very early times when the church didn't worry about butts in the seats and priest or nuns coming to be or money for that matter.
that makes little sense, but its plain to see you have zero knowledge of church history, nor any desire to know anything about it, past what the nuns told you was true.
why you prefer blinders rather than knowledge, truly is beyond me
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 7, 2015 16:26:31 GMT -6
Okay Tman you are the keeper of all things catholic and my resources have not near the in site you do to the Catholic Church fair enough. You are on the out side looking in and suspect have been that way for many years? or am I Wrong and you attend mass weekly? I think your knowledge is from a some what jaded perspective? Again right or wrong? I will just ask it, do you follow the catholic faith yes or no? if so why? You claim to think the whole ideas are based on numbers in or of the church as far as birth control goes, yet up until recent times many churches had a strong stance against birth control as well, many changed simply because of social "peer" pressure the catholic fan remains steadfast to the writings and teachings I have posted, you think they are not factual then so be it I guess. it is clearly stated that for centuries the Catholic Church was against birth control,yet back in the days the remedies for such where not wide spread so less public talk about them until later years when many more commercially available forms become for sale, the church felt the need to talk openly about it in a more wide spread way. This is factual. Again you can choose to abide by the church or not a free country and for each person to make up his or her owns mind. There is a portion of the church followers that do use and would support a change of direction no doubt, but so far even with Lessing numbers of church goers, priest and nuns the church has held steadfast, I admire that to a large degree. I am sure you and others do not, that is why America is a great country freedom of choice and will. You see Tman we all have a choice , my oldest son has not attended mass in 2.5 years? he is of the belief of the Big Bang theory is how we all became who we are, while I do not agree at all with that premise he has a choice to make and as an adult he gets to choose it again free will. Given to him not by some Big Bang but by a much higher power god . he likes that notion for sure LOL.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 7, 2015 17:31:56 GMT -6
completely wrong, not even in the same cosmos TC
unlike you, I WANT to know truth, I WANT to know history
Do I believe that all the teachings of the RC church are factual? No. Do I believe the Gospels where changed, sometimes in a 180 degree from the original? Of course- how can one argue with fact? every new rendition of the Gospels were edited and changed multiple times, to promote the view of the church- even things like Mary and Joseph travelling "to pay taxes" (something that never occurred- the country didn't shut down as everyone travelled, the tax man CAME to the towns- but that didn't fit the prophesies) or Joseph being a "carpenter (the actual words used in the bible meant "laborer" but again ,that didn't fit the prophesies) or even the lineage of the Messiah as coming from David's line- again, not true but changed to fit and the gospels themselves, contradict each other multiple times and places- but how can that be? God's word- God was lying in one gospel, telling the truth in the other?
Do I believe priests are God's representatives? Not a chance.
but just keep believing everything the nuns told you- they would be proud
It does blow me away how everything has to be black or white- when much of the world is grey
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 7, 2015 18:28:55 GMT -6
Tman the king made law that the people just return to their place of birth to have a census. he was from Bethlehem a descendant of King David hence the reason for travel. Where do your get the tax man could collect taxes from anyone no matter where they where? Also about the census it is stated in Luke 2 and depending on where you get your so called facts and from who has a lot to do with it. I surely know the bible has been translated by many hence the reason for all the newer churches and beliefs. I bet you forget many have the belief what Luke stated did in fact happen and those against the religion claim to have proof such did not happen, imagine that. Priest not gods representatives? Ok then. We are on two different thought process when it comes to the Roman Catholic religion . Thanks for the debate. Black or white is what religion is all about
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Post by trappnman on Jan 7, 2015 20:58:11 GMT -6
so if priests are God's representatives, and act godly- why all the pedophilia?
bible has been translated by many hence the reason for all the newer churches and beliefs
true, but also WITHIN the RC church its been changed and reinvented, multiple times
the CENSUS was for tax purposes
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Post by James on Jan 7, 2015 22:28:37 GMT -6
So what happened to no meat on Fridays?
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 8, 2015 6:12:33 GMT -6
Easy Tman free will. Those priest chose lust over Jesus and that is a grave sin on many counts they will have to answer for their actions, they are human not god or jesus directly . Any good priest will tell you just because they are priest doesn't mean they all get a fee ticket to salvation many feel they will do their time in purgatory as any other human would do. yet they do the work of god and Jesus Christ . it is calling some are very good at it others not so much, some leave the priesthood, others die teaching/ preaching the words of god. it is what comes in the middle of all that, that makes them who or what they are.
Even Peter denied Jesus 3 times.
James canon law on the issue you speak.
Can. 1249 The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons.
Can. 1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.
Can. 1251 Abstinence from eating meat or some other food according to the prescripts of the conference of bishops is to be observed on ,of abstinence binds those who have completed their fourteenth year of age. The law of fasting, however, binds all those who have attained their majority until the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors of souls and parents are to take care that minors not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are also educated in a genuine sense of penance.
Can. 1253 The conference of bishops can determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence as well as substitute other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety, in whole or in part, for abstinence and fasting.
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Post by James on Jan 8, 2015 6:38:48 GMT -6
Interesting. I'd thought that meatless Friday had gone the way of the Dodo bird.
Jim
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Post by trappnman on Jan 8, 2015 7:19:43 GMT -6
Omniscient- having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
one simple question- if this is true (you do accept its true according to the Church?) then explain to me "free will"
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 8, 2015 16:36:02 GMT -6
Tman we have already described free will in connection to onimscent we have been there and done that. Go back a few pages it is there to read.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 8, 2015 16:40:41 GMT -6
Here is from,page 4 on free will again.
Catholic teaching on free will recognizes that God has given men and women the capacity to choose good or evil in their lives. The bishops at the Second Vatican Council declared that the human person, endowed with freedom, is “an outstanding manifestation of the divine image.” (Gaudium et Spes, No. 17) As the parable of the Grand Inquisitor in Dostoevsky’s novel, The Brothers Karamazov, makes so beautifully clear, God did not want humanity to be mere automatons, but to have the dignity of freedom, even recognizing that with that freedom comes the cost of many evil choices.
However, human freedom does not legitimate bad moral choices, nor does it justify a stance that all moral choices are good if they are free: “The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything.” (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1740) Christian belief in human freedom recognizes that we are called but not compelled by God to choose constantly the values of the Gospel—faith, hope, love, mercy, justice, forgiveness, integrity and compassion.
It is entirely incompatible with Catholic teaching to conclude that our freedom of will justifies choices that are radically contrary to the Gospel—racism, infidelity, abortion, theft. Freedom of will is the capacity to act with moral responsibility; it is not the ability to determine arbitrarily what constitutes moral right.
What, then, is to guide the children of God in the use of their freedom? Again, the bishops at the Council provide the answer—conscience: “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment . . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God . . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.” (GS, No. 16) Conscience, then, is the judgment of reason whereby the human person, guided by God’s grace, recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act. In all we say and do, we are obliged to follow faithfully what we know to be just and right.
How do we form and guide our consciences? While the Church teaches that each of us is called to judge and direct his or her own actions, it also teaches that, like any good judge, each conscience masters the law and listens to exper
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 8, 2015 16:56:19 GMT -6
There are many bible versus to prove Jesus omniscients in part while on earth. Matthew 26 , Luke 5,6,9 and 11. While,on earth he did not know ALL as he became man so he did not have the full knowledge until ascending into heaven and seated next to the father. Mark 13:32. "No one knows when that day or hour will come —not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father. Again Tman your a non believer so much of,this rest on faith,belief and grace. each to his own. but plenty of evidence for those of faith I feel, you may not so be it. free will
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