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Post by James on Dec 10, 2014 17:23:31 GMT -6
I am really angry that the president I voted for twice is refusing to prosecute the torturers of the Bush administration and CIA officials who destroyed evidence. This is one of the greatest atrocities of our nation, and how do we expect to prevent it in the future if we grant immunity to the criminals?
So far as I'm concerned, Obama is now an accessory after the fact.
jim
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Post by trappnman on Dec 10, 2014 17:44:30 GMT -6
I'd have to agree-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 10, 2014 20:00:26 GMT -6
James the same question could be asked of amnesty for 5 million illegals really what is the difference?
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Post by James on Dec 10, 2014 21:04:04 GMT -6
The degree of the offense, for one.
Jim
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Post by bblwi on Dec 10, 2014 22:34:54 GMT -6
So now we are saying aggressive interrogation of prisoners of war is similar to working to establish an immigration program? There is no Segway there other than political tit for tat from my perspective.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 11, 2014 1:56:29 GMT -6
Who would you go after first James? It started right from the top. I'd go for just Cheney and Bush who knew about the torture and not only authorized it but still won't even admit it was torture. Here's what Bush had to say in 2010: "Bush on waterboarding: 'Damn right'" November 5, 2010 7:13 p.m. EDT www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11/05/bush.book/index.htmlBush takes responsibility for giving the go-ahead for waterboarding terror suspects, which has touched off a new round of criticism of Bush and calls for his prosecution. He says that he did decide not to use two more extreme interrogation methods, but did not disclose what those were.------------------- Even in March of this year Cheney refused to call water boarding torture. Obama could spend his last two years on trying to get some of these guys prosecuted, but with a Republican senate and congress it would all be futile anyway. No doubt they'd just have a vote to impeach him. --------------- crooksandliars.com/2014/03/dick-cheney-stands-his-torture-are-usDick Cheney Stands By His 'Torture Are Us' Policies To Support Waterboarding "Former Vice President Dick Cheney refuted accusations that he is a war criminal during his speech to students and members of the AU community in Bender Arena on March 28. The Kennedy Political Union hosted Cheney as part of a stream of speakers coming to campus.“The accusations are not true,” Cheney said. During his vice presidency, three people were waterboarded, Cheney said. Waterboarding refers to either pumping a stomach with water or inducing choking by filling a throat with a stream of water, according to a report by NPR." According to Cheney, the enhanced interrogation tactics used do not fall under the scope of the 1949 United Nations Geneva Convention, which outlaws cruel, inhuman or any degrading treatment or punishment because the Geneva Convention does not apply to unlawful combatants. The Bush administration considered terrorists as unlawful combatants and considered those undergoing enhanced interrogation tactics as terrorists. “If I would have to do it all over again, I would,” Cheney said. “The results speak for themselves.”
“Some people called it torture. It wasn’t torture,” Cheney said in an interview with ATV.
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 11, 2014 1:59:40 GMT -6
TC if you don't see any difference between humane amnesty and inhumane torture, I feel badly for you.
Cheers, Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2014 5:52:24 GMT -6
Funny Pam, James and Tman at Least in their minds is holding Obama accountable for not doing something they feel needs to be addressed, you simply give him a pass and move on to Bush and Cheney. My thoughts on that issue is who cares, no pun but water under the bridge on this for me, information was extracted and war is well war. Bryce and Pam, I will take away the fluff for you, I see granting amnesty to 5 million illegals as an illegal act, just as you see water boarding as such. We are telling people are laws mean nothing you can be illegal by our immigration laws but stay here long enough, vote the proper way and your going to be a citizen in 5 years we are paving the path for you and wiping away any talk of illegal entry into our country. I will do such with my executive power. I find that as disturbing as you find water boarding to gain information in a timely manner. We where/are dealing with terrorism and your looking for PC tatics? What about the point Obama made long ago to close Guantanamo? Still open holding detainees.
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 11, 2014 10:33:15 GMT -6
Just for once it'd be nice to stick to the original discussion TC lol
I AM saying that Obama should prosecute those who admit to it and everyone knows authorized the torture. I was also asking James who he would start with. How far should the President be expected to go with it alone?
Cheers, Pam
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Post by James on Dec 11, 2014 11:47:28 GMT -6
Right to the top. No one should be above the law. I thought the same about Nixon.
Congressional approval is not required. Obama and Holder control the justice department.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2014 17:20:56 GMT -6
Pam I thought the key point was granting amnesty to criminals?
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Post by bblwi on Dec 11, 2014 18:23:25 GMT -6
I never stated that I felt complete amnesty for 5 million illegals was what I was in favor of. I just wanted to point out that in my opinion equating the two as equal issues is absurd in my opinion, but if your really feel that strongly that your tit for tat is the right course then I can see why we disagree strongly on a host of issues. My whole life has been about trying to separate issues and deal with them as single issues with their own issues but Congress and the WH don't seem to see it that way and neither then do you so in my mind you are a part of our current political quagmire and seem to relish in it as well.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2014 18:55:36 GMT -6
Bryce I see these issues as two issues do I believe Bush or anyone else should be held on to charges for water boarding? Nope! We as America have always been held to higher standards, yet we use tatics that get us timely information against extreme people and some want to call it torture I do not a see it as such period. They started the crap with killing our people for gods sake, they had a choice to answer fourth right that I am sure on, they choose to not talk we need the information we know the majority have, their was no be headings like innocent reporters from many countires where dealt at the hands of ISIS, we didn't bomb a marathon, we didn't hijack there airplanes and run them into buildings. many of our armed forces personnel are and have been subjected to far worse treatment in many wars. Sorry on terrorism I have less feelings for the Geneva convention.
Then we look at amnesty to 5 million Ilegal aliens with executive order as the rule? Did I mention these people came to our country in an illegal manner? So if we are worrying about using water boarding on a bunch of people that want us all dead and they are holding information that could save americna lives innocent lives and that being illegal methods of interogation as a major issue , then 5 million people who have come here in an illegal manner should be just as big an issue and no excutove order should be able to be used as they come here illegally and our president is willing to forget all that and give them a path to citizenship.
The entire concept behind both? politics.............. otherwise that should have been job one and not waiting 6 years for such.
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Post by James on Dec 11, 2014 19:18:54 GMT -6
I'm not getting diverted to other issues.
Cheney should be water-boarded until he tells all he knows. It's not torture, right?
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2014 19:57:01 GMT -6
Not if he is with holding information that would cause Americans great harm or death
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Post by James on Dec 11, 2014 20:36:14 GMT -6
Ends justify the means, eh?
Expediency trumps morality.
Lots of tyrants use that rationale.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2014 20:57:35 GMT -6
James if you think I put Cheney or Bush or the CIA in the same light as I do Bin Laden, Hussein or ISIS your sadly mistaken Expediency when American lives are at stake versus our enemies who are trying to cause shock and awe an mass casualties on American lives and we use techniques such as water boarding is done by tyrants so be it terrorist who become our prisoners of war on terror , have the chance to give us the information we request or sub comb to our methods of information extraction, water boarding far different than be heading innocent people or running planes into buildings in my book any day. One makes you feel as if your dying the other? innocent lives are lost guaranteed.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2014 21:00:31 GMT -6
I am for protecting freedoms and innocents not terrorist and worrying about the conditions in which they are held or the acts of water boarding which are far better than how many Americans have been treated in our wars............ Again we look how we treat people versus others we are at war with and it is like comparing federal prison versus a state run facility. Apples and oranges no doubt about it. It would seem your in the minority James as this recent Rasmussen poll shows, desperate times calls for desperate measures. Don't think the WH doesn't look at such information for political gain because they do. Nearly half of U.S. voters favor the use of waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation tactics employed by the Central Intelligence Agency to procure information from suspected terrorists, according to a poll released Thursday. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that 47 percent of likely voters support the CIA’s practices in the aftermath of the 9/11 attack, while 33 percent disagreed with using such methods. Another 20 percent were not sure. Read more: www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/11/voters-back-waterboarding-terrorist-suspects-poll/#ixzz3LeIjNkHl Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
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Post by James on Dec 11, 2014 21:28:25 GMT -6
Moral decency isn't a matter of polling. Most Germans were in favor of locking up the Jews just for being Jews.
Some of the people we mistreated weren't even terrorists.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2014 5:57:21 GMT -6
None of our people where terrorist who died by the hands of Bin laden and ISIS.......................
War is well war, our intelligence does some of the very best work in the world. Not everyone in prison in the is guilty either but the largest majority are, point being we get it right far more than wrong on matters like these.
6 + years after the fact and you do not think politics comes into play? really?
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