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Post by James on Jan 2, 2015 21:11:37 GMT -6
Doesn't God know what choice I will make? Doesn't His knowing something will happen, make it happen?
Jim
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Post by bblwi on Jan 2, 2015 23:11:17 GMT -6
Never stated Pope John was a poor Pope, but the current Pope is creating a huge new interest in his followers coming after a couple really difficult decades of abuse, deceit and cover up. I know he is not breaking away from most strict Catholic Doctrine but he is empowering and energizing millions and a leader that can maintain the basic principles or foundations and create new zest and faith is a leader who maybe able to change a couple hundred million rank and file Catholics while keeping many things the same for a couple thousand church leaders. From that perspective I would say he is really following God's calling when given the opportunity to choose who to serve and raise up.
One of the things I have learned to deal with is that even if you come from extremely humble beginnings and life is a tough climb you can't rest on the fact that you crawled out of a large hole and that you and others should note that. Life and leadership is not about personal achievement it is about having the influence and credibility to be able to change society etc. for the better no matter what position one starts from. I believe your new Pope fully understands what his role is and how he is choosing to carry that out.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Jan 3, 2015 2:17:44 GMT -6
"The scriptures do not matter or attending church should not matter either?"
It only matters if you believe it does:-)
Cheers,
Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 3, 2015 7:57:42 GMT -6
Jim the idea in free will is the cross roads of such thinking. We are set here to do Gods "will" we can either choose to follow that or not, that is where our "free will" comes into play. Again you or ai do not know gods plan for us, the entire of idea of catholic belief is to surrender to gods will for each of us, that is where one might ok to find the answer to your question. One who has a closer connection to god is surely on a better path to follow gods will than one who isn't.
free will is about making positive actions or negatives actions in ones life, because your outcome is predetermined doesn't mean you can't loose standing in the eyes of The Lord. if you have a friend he could be your friend for life, yet your actions towards him will decide that.
I think Saint thomas Aquinas summed it up fairly well: The causality of reprobation is unlike that of predestination. For predestination is the cause both of what is awaited in the future, namely glory, and of what is received in the present, namely grace. Whereas reprobation is not the cause of present fault, but of future result, namely, of being abandoned by God. Fault is born of the freewill of the person who deserts grace.
Pam exactly and that is what the word FAITH is all about! The ability to believe and accept god into your life. That comes from the grace of god and is offered to every living person.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 3, 2015 7:59:16 GMT -6
TC- do you understand what "mutually exclusive" means?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 3, 2015 8:50:54 GMT -6
Yes I do but what point are you trying to make? You see a few have said they where born and raised catholic but funny how none hold those values today? Your choice I know others who have done the same, yet I choose to believe in the scriptures and the Catholic Church my choice and free will.  If you read what I wrote and that of catholic scripture and the beliefs of the church then YOU would not believe them to be mutually exclusive at all. again it comes back to faith and gods grace take it or leave it. |
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Post by PamIsMe on Jan 3, 2015 13:55:05 GMT -6
" You see a few have said they where born and raised catholic but funny how none hold those values today?"
Interesting isn't it? Could be all the problems within the church itself have something to do with it?
I don't see that free will has anything to do with religion.
Pam
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Post by bblwi on Jan 3, 2015 14:05:29 GMT -6
Religions are man made principled based theologies based on the interpretations, bias and beliefs of a select few religious leaders from as far back as the first century AD for Christians. It amazes me that we humans try to make God a sort of super human being thinking that God is the master human instead of the universally powerful spiritual creator and master of all and not just certain groups dogmas.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 3, 2015 19:20:57 GMT -6
Pam because you feel religion is not needed in your life, that is your call and your opinion as to such. free will is talked about a lot in the catholic religion, god has a plan for each of us (belief) it is up to us to promote that plan versus using free will to go against the plan. God gave us all his grace, we choose to put it to use or not. The entire reason he took his only son, made him man and allowed him to die on the cross. I liken some of this argument as the chicken and the egg, one thing we all know is we have a chicken So problems in any church or life means one pulls away from such? Or does one work to make things better? easy to say I am done and walk away many have done that very thing, much harder to say, I know this or that needs work and I am willing to do what I can for positive change. Much harder road than just walkin out the door. I personally know those that have done the walking away, their choice but why waste all those years and what did it really mean if so simple as to just walk away? Bryce Jesus Christ took the form of a human because it was needed to get people to believe, to get rid of sin and see his sacrifice for all others from that time forward. It is the basis behind the holy trinity. The father,son and Holy Spirit. it is in the apostles creed which is said at almost every mass, it is a core foundation of the Roman Catholic Church. |
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 3, 2015 19:28:51 GMT -6
Look I will leave this issue at, If you have and follow the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church on gods grace and free will and how it coincides with Gods knowledge and plans for each of us "believers" then it is clearly easy enough to see how it works as I have posted on and stated where to find such, if your not a believer then we can argue to the end of time over the subject of free will and what role it plays. it is simple really one either has the belief or one doesn't again each to his or her own. I feel we are getting way off topic, but continue a debate on something none of you have a belief in anyhow anymore |
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Post by bblwi on Jan 3, 2015 22:28:28 GMT -6
I am Lutheran so the Apostles creed and the Nicene Creeds are our creeds as well. I just don't limit my spiritual breadth as much as you choose to do.
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Jan 4, 2015 0:18:35 GMT -6
"..but why waste all those years and what did it really mean if so simple as to just walk away?..."
I can't say as I consider all my years of Lutheran Sunday School, Catechism, and church wasted. It all led me to the beliefs I have held over the years :-) What did start to change my thinking on what I was taught was when my Dad died when I was 11. There was no question in my mind that he was just gone and I wasn't ever going to see him again, now or later. I had to chuckle at my Mom. When my step-dad passed away (53 years later) she said something about him not really being gone and seeing him again in the wonderful hereafter. So I couldn't resist asking her who she would give a hug to first, my Dad or my Step-Dad. She got all indignant then and said "Well, it just doesn't work like that." She was buried in between them.
In any case, I think people find what they need in their lives and I have no problem with that. Unless they come to my front door and harass me about them. lol
Cheers,
Pam
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Post by James on Jan 4, 2015 0:35:11 GMT -6
Now I've seen everything -- TC complaining about a thread going off topic! lol
Jim
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Post by trappnman on Jan 4, 2015 8:00:44 GMT -6
I can see you TC- leading the charge to put Galileo away because reality differed from church teachings.
and its easy to see, you really know very little about the history of the church and do no free will thinking yourself.
the history of the church is not pretty, and certainly far, far from infallible. when for centuries the hierarchy of the church was based pretty much on how wealthy you were- and a "job" in the church such as Bishop, was the path to riches.
Many of the early popes had multitudes of wifes and kids- that celibacy thing was just made law for 1 reason- it kept the wealth in the church.
and take birth control- because the bible said so? or that non use filled the ranks?
and take the bible itself- a very cherry picked collection of a few gospels, from the hundreds if not 1000s that were written, to portray what the CHURCH wanted
Even the birth of Christ- the prophesies were fulfilled? not really- they were twisted and changed, so the predictions, seemed to be true- decades after the birth- in where? the bible.
you can't be so blind to accept everything told to you- but right away- if anyone differs, you back into that old religious fever attitude of you aren't a believer.
unlike some things- believing in a higher power, and not accepting everything certain men tell you, AREN'T mutually exclusive
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 4, 2015 9:16:27 GMT -6
The history of many religions is not pretty nor is it all one sided either. Cherry picked the Catholic Church alone preserved Sacred Scripture throughout the persecution of the Roman Empire and during the Dark Ages. Where do you get Tman that the Catholic Church cherry picks? Good grief. They tell and encourage everyone to read the bible. The American version well because it is easier to read the new revised standard catholic version and for people to follow mass easier new American bible. The Church (not individuals) interpret Scripture. In Catholicism, Scripture is there for meditation, prayer and inspiration, not for individual interpretation to formulate doctrine or dogma. This is very important to have faith! otherwise I should start my one church tomorrow and do exit polling as to what I should be preaching about In fact Tman many new churches do open every year that interpret their own versions and beliefs of the bible Tman on birth control The catholic faith came to its stance because of the teachings and scriptures, thou shall not kill and what the sanctity of marriage is all about. Who has the right to tell anyone when life begins? Some doctor, a singular person beliefs? Life starts and ends with conception in the eyes of many and many churches, again you can believe it or not. I ask this: of life doesn't begin until birth then why do some people who commit acts of murder or manslaughter on pregnant woman stand trial for the acts of two? There is no guarantee the child would be born at term correct? We can't separate conception from abortion as they are all acts of birth control covered under our laws, furthermore to stop a conception from happing ,s that not stopping a life from forming? Again many in this world believe it is and that is based on the belief that life is precious and is a gift from god. Again belief or not of such it all goes hand in hand into what someone seeks out in their lives. You can run down the catholic faith all you want, it still doesn't change the FACT that the catholic faith has endured many things for many,many years and continues on today and takes more conservative approaches and teachings from the bible and doctrines. |
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Post by trappnman on Jan 4, 2015 10:08:52 GMT -6
you really don't get it, do you? running down the faith? what utter misconception to be polite, bullshite if I'm not
birth control The catholic faith came to its stance because of the teachings and scriptures
utter utter bullshite and so far from the truth its scary
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 4, 2015 11:53:06 GMT -6
Ok Tman the church is against birth control just because it can be then.........
I believe the Supreme Court said, those of the belief against birth control who own business can with hold the ability to pay for such in Obama care as well.
Again you agree with it or not simple really.
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Post by bblwi on Jan 4, 2015 17:49:19 GMT -6
The reason the Catholics preserved those doctrines etc. during the Roman Empire is because there were no other denominations of Christianity at the time. Martin Luther was not born until the 1400s. If you are looking as to who we should thank for spreading Christianity we should thank Luther for translating the Bible to the language of the people and Guttenburg (spelling) for inventing the printing press.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 4, 2015 18:32:18 GMT -6
Yeh and preserving them was such an easy task at the time .
How about st Jerome who compiled the first bible? he deserves some credit so does pope damsus I as well.
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Post by bblwi on Jan 4, 2015 19:31:34 GMT -6
From studying religious history in a couple history classes at the UW saving some of the doctrine from fellow Christians was a bigger deal than from the Pagans and others. Interesting web we weave when we when we look at the impacts of religion has on our world development. We must constantly remember that it is not the manmade laws that we carve out and taut as much as it is the message of God to a world of sinners who many times use his Name to do very dastardly things to many cultures and persons.
Bryce
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