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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 9, 2008 5:40:49 GMT -6
Tman how many traps do I run in frozen ground? I'm betting far more for coyotes than you do? or have in the past? I have 20 something in the ground now. Yes freeze thaw/conditions but not snare locations for sure. I use what I need,when I need to get the job done. Depends on the winter and where I'm working, past winters I ran 50+ traps for the majority of the winter, many years in another state I ran alot of foot traps, while in my Iowa years that is where I saw the down fall to the 1.75 in winter conditions.
Beav if you use enough snares you can limit pelt damage to little and if you use them alot you figure out ways so you don't have live beaver in them., as far as cost each beaver caught cost .32 in materials , I don't find that to be a big cost.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 9, 2008 8:27:45 GMT -6
blus sky numbers....
2 week checks, etc, etc don't really play into it for 90% of coyote trappers.
and further- I'm guessing 90% of coyote trappers are done after a few weeks of warm weather-
and I'll go further on a limb, and say that 99% of coyotes harvested by traps, are in an inch of snow or less....
point being, like M-44s or planes, deep winter snow trapping is beyond the ken of most folks....
because you are unable or unwilling to use 1.75s, doesn't mean others don't have the skills to do so.
THe best trap? no- not for all conditions...
but a damn good trap in 99% of conditions? you better bleieve it is.
waaay back, you were steadfast in that 1.75s simply would not work on western coyotes- the fight harder, stronger, bigger, whatever... and as we both know, thats false.
I thin k220s on coon, is a very inefficent way to trap coon- I've tried tme for yearsi n snow and cold, and see FAR too many walkarounds and avoidance using them. And buckets- yo ucan have them.
BUT- I'd never say they are BETTER or WORSE than the footholds I use.
YES- WORSE for me- but then take rk- and he slams them in boxes...
so what so I do? tell him his methods don't work and that hes foolish for not using the BEST trap out there (IMHO, of course)
Nope- I say "wish I could do it" and move on.....
if the 1.75 doesn't do it for you, aka like the 220s for me, don't use them...
but don't tell me they won't work on western coyotes, etc, etc...
Because I know thats not true.....
hey..maybe MN coon are just smarter than NE coon.....
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 9, 2008 10:32:15 GMT -6
hey..maybe MN coon are just smarter than NE coon.....
Nope I do all right with buckets at times and I have a buddy down south (Minnesota) that 220s quite a few coon. TC the biggest problem I have with snares is if that beaver aint dead and out of sight here he is going to get bit up. Not under ice of course but in the spring if that beaver aint dead and gone a good percentage will be worthless. Also cant forget the incidentals. When otter were a hundred bucks it made you smile to have one in a good channel set for beaver. Now they are around 35 or 40 dollars so it doesnt hurt either.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 9, 2008 10:39:52 GMT -6
hey..maybe MN coon are just smarter than NE coon.....
Nope I do all right with buckets at times and I have a buddy down south (Minnesota) that 220s quite a few coon.
of course you and they do- and thats the point.....
we all become skilled with the tools we use, and lose skills on those we do not....
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 9, 2008 10:43:41 GMT -6
and lose skills on those we do not....
I know where you are going with that and I dont buy it for a minute.
I've been a foreman at work for 3 years now.
Hardly run a piece of iron but when I get on it its like I never left, might take me ten minutes to get used to that particular piece of iron and it nuances.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 9, 2008 11:20:06 GMT -6
and yet, I wouldn't hire you to build me a house-
or write me a stirring melody-
even though you had once used a saw or sung a song....
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Post by thebeav2 on Feb 9, 2008 12:44:06 GMT -6
The trapper who limits his options will limit his catch.
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Feb 9, 2008 13:15:31 GMT -6
and yet, I wouldn't hire you to build me a house-
or write me a stirring melody-
even though you had once used a saw or sung a song....
Thats not the point.
I was never skilled at either.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 9, 2008 13:26:21 GMT -6
But its exactly the point.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 10, 2008 9:50:00 GMT -6
tman your idea of a western coyote trap is checking them 24 hours and working with them in sand, I bet you had great luck with them in those conditions, that is not the norm for most western trappers, reason being most don't use the 1.75 as a western coyote trap. Cat trappers catch coyotes some want to to pay the gas and some try to avoid them, the thing is they won't use a 1.75 for either, they trap in snow conditions you can't quit trapping either because of snow or many wouldn't get those good winter coyotes in many places. 99% of coyotes harvested in 1" or less? Where can I find those figures? I'm sure for "your" uses on a 24 hr check and great soils they make sense for you, but because you used them for a few weeks in areas of the west means what? That is enough experiance to say they work every bit as good in western locations and western soils as a larger trap year round? That is like some stating they never had a chew out in a snare, so it doesn't happen but have caught 10 coyotes in them? 2 week checks, sorry never went that long at looking at any equipment. 99% of conditions? In a "normal" fall with blue bird weather and checking 24 hours, in fact those coyotes are there less than 14 hours on the majority sure, but many don't just trap blue bird weather in the west as in many areas you don't get much blue bird weather or the field soils of the mid west either. I started trapping coyotes with 1.75's and I have used them on fur lines in a couple states, the problem was there was better choices and as I got on to those it made for better results overall. I trap plain and simple and don't worry about the weather, if I need to set traps then I do always have always will. You find ways to make them work in all conditions, and in all conditions some traps shine above others.
I'm done on this thread, I will leave it at yes you can catch coyotes in 1.75's but there are better choices that will benefit any of us that trap in conditions and soils and check times above and beyond what you have. Fair enough?
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Post by trappnman on Feb 10, 2008 10:05:14 GMT -6
yes, I fully understand that conditions matter-
but I also fully understand, that very few traps if any, come up through 10 feet of snow and 3 inches of ice- or whatever.
and I also understand that if a 1.75 is made in dry dirt, etc- it will operate just as well as any other trap in winter.
trust me, your soil conditions around Belle Fouche, are no different from what I was trapping in the west on average- and lots different (warmer and less snow) than here during winter.
longer checks mean nothing to me because I don't use them- so thats not a factor nor a concern.
blue sky means blue sky on my figures....
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Post by trappnman on Feb 10, 2008 10:09:47 GMT -6
The trapper who limits his options will limit his catch.
I don't buy this for a minute in any general way or not.
a trapper that doesn't wear waders...might limit his opportunites, or a trapper that doesn't drive a 4x4...
but choice of trap limiting catch- no.
sure- using 100s for coon would give you less coon- but using #11, 220s, snares or 1.5s would all, in the hands of those preferring and using such traps- about the same catch.
Yes, I like the montanas- like the dogless, like the style, like the ease in setting- but I can't say that it gives me any more coyotes in the truck.... AT THE END OF THE YEAR.
funny thing about trapping- on one hand we argue its not rocket science, on the other we argue that skill makes a difference.
A=B=C
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Post by Possum on Feb 10, 2008 10:10:14 GMT -6
Steevee!
You are getting defensive. I remember 4 or 5 years ago we argued this (before you tried the Montanas) and you were the strongest advocate of 1.75s. You are mellowing and maturing as time flies by. Me, I'm just getting grayer and fatter. We can still have a group hug the next time our paths cross.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 10, 2008 10:14:29 GMT -6
because you used them for a few weeks in areas of the west means what?
it means, when you absolutely positively tolds me that 1.75s would not work in any way on western coyotes, that you were wrong. You did see my pics from last year? that white stuff was snow, those dark objects, were rocks.
You were bound and determined, that western coyotes were simply too much in every way, for 1.75s.
and that too, was false.
What it shows, is that using them properly- and THAT secret is to read the number on the pan- they work just fine.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 10, 2008 10:41:30 GMT -6
I'm still a strong advocate for the traps worth on canines.
Liking another trap, doesn't diminish that.
God knows, I used it long enough with enough success to know what it is capable of doing.
Those disliking the traps, are EXACTLY like me disliking 220s on coon. Tried them, didn't like then, so moved on..... MY fault, not the traps......
Or disliking flat sets- for several years starting out, I seriously thought flat sets were myth, a joke, a blue bucket type set.... until I learned how to make them.
If someone doesn't like 1.75s, or #2 or even #4s- so be it...
but because someone CAN'T do something with a tool, doesn't diminish its worth for those that can.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 10, 2008 12:58:05 GMT -6
you prooved nothing as you didn't run them like most do 3 days checks! I also don't work the Belle Fourche area a different trapper does, I'm further East very little crop grounds and how do you know what soils I workin compaired to your wyoming trip? You trap gray gumbo? Hard pan cactus flats? The snow issue is this: If I have traps out and wwe get 2-4" I can/have caught coyotes in this weather and a 4 coiled and those that have 6" or more of jaw spread are going to give you better holds than smaller traps that is that. good day.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 10, 2008 14:26:02 GMT -6
Randy- I think that we would both probably do things pretty close to as the other does. I'd never dis your coyote knowledge, because I know that your are experienced. But I'm no slouch either.
While I know you underestimate what a 1.75 can do if used right- and by that I mean short chains, solid stakes, good bedding and short drop- by no means am I advocating that it's the perfect trap.
and if I was bet a millon dollars on whether I would catch that first coyote coming along- I wouldn't use a 1.75.
But even using a Jake, etc- wouldn't make it a 100% sure thing.
And in doing the ADC work now, I do use Montanas. For maybe that 1% better chance (blue sky numbers again)...
so do I think bigger traps are better? Yes, I do- but very marginally (in my opinion based on 20 years using 1.75s and last 4 years using a mix.)
I can and do set a 1.75 with as much confidence as a montana.
This year, while I added more #3s, I still only had 100 or so- so was rotating the 1.75s in when cleaning traps. Honestly, my catch didn't suffer.
I don't know anybody that never gets a snapped trap from an intended target. I've heard of those that say that, but saying it's so doesn't make it so. So yes, I get a few snapped traps in BOTH sizes.
Whats the absolute BEST coyote trap? I don't know. I know that there are people that swear #3 dls are the best, that Sterlings are the best, coyote cuffs, Jakes, etc.
And they are nice pieces of equipment- but in my mind, they aren't worth the investment to me. TO ME. For others, they obviously are.
They might get me 3-4 more coyotes a year? Sure- I'll grant that- but they sure would make me cry to go bye bye in a plowed field or helpfully pulled for me by hunters.
A note on the ADC work- my ADC work comes in the late spring, early summer. I don't get a lot of calls, coyotes just aren't doing much of that around here (more calls than not, are because coyotes make them nervous, not damage).
Good weather, good conditions.
All my collaring work and much of my ADC work, was all done in 1.75s. I've never NOT taken a problem coyote in a night or two with the 1.75s. I'd not heistate to do so again if 1.75s were all I had to use.
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