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Post by trappnman on Apr 2, 2007 18:19:06 GMT -6
also posted a study where a coyote was shown to have been upgraded from bad mange to recovering.
please do so again
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Post by Wiley on Apr 2, 2007 18:28:29 GMT -6
T'man,
I'm not going to look for those studies again.
Perhaps someone can find it in the archives.
~SH~
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 2, 2007 18:34:15 GMT -6
I make no claims of being a vet, but I did stay at a holiday Inn express last night LOL. If there was zero chance then my question would be why did Texas A&M even have it at or near 1% recovery, if totally out of the realm of being able why didn't it state 100% mortality? They had to find coyotes that did recover or why even speak to the point of recovery?
I would think if not even a remote option they wouldn't have taken up space or wording otherwise?
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Post by robertw on Apr 2, 2007 18:48:19 GMT -6
TC37;"If there was zero chance then my question would be why did Texas A&M even have it at or near 1% recovery, if totally out of the realm of being able why didn't it state 100% mortality"
Because there is always the chance that one "may" recover...To definitively say 100%mortality the study would need to have a test sample of at least 1000 + animals and then the possiblity still exists for the "one" animal.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 2, 2007 18:58:31 GMT -6
the possibility exists even if in 1 in 10,000 or 1 in a million. Numbers were never an issue- the issue was always CAN it happen.
Robert- keep in mind- that OTHER mammals HAVE been documented as having spontaneous recovery.
and that fact, makes it PROBABLE that canines can also.
and also remember that it doesn't have to be a recovery from a full blown case.
I too think its very probable- and who's to say those coyotes with that little tinge on the tail haven't contacted it, but are being "cured" before it gets to widespread?
Or even that some coyotes (those that we call without mange) are indeed infected- but cure themselves (through antibodies, or whatever it would be genetically) before its visible to us.
After all, coyotes have mange before we see it... it doesn't happen overnight...
I can't.
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Post by robertw on Apr 2, 2007 19:20:46 GMT -6
Is it possible to kill a coyote that is "recovering" from mange...Most definitely, the question is how did this happen? What if a mange infested coyote fed from a dead cow or sheep that was recently treated with Ivomec and ingested enough of the product to cure it's self? Do you still consider this as "naturally" recovering from mange?
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Apr 2, 2007 19:23:04 GMT -6
After all, coyotes have mange before we see it... it doesn't happen overnight...
I have little experience with yotes but it practically does on fox Steve.
I dont know if they can recover or not.
All I have to go by is a decimated population with little to no recovery over say 12 years.
Who knows?
I am patiently waiting but not keeping my fingers crossed.
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Post by coyotewhisperer on Apr 2, 2007 19:30:15 GMT -6
Some is SW Kansas would appear to have recovered from mange if someone was looking close enough. Every early season coyote I caught that had mange got a shot of Ivomec and released.
Jeff
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Post by FWS on Apr 2, 2007 22:19:40 GMT -6
What we need to do is create a forum for links to articles, studies, reports, etc, etc.
Label them for what they are and add any more relevant to the issue.
Along the lines of what I've done personally, I have a database of info. that is rather voluminous on the various components of our issues.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 3, 2007 10:20:42 GMT -6
RW: "Is it possible to kill a coyote that is "recovering" from mange...Most definitely, the question is how did this happen? What if a mange infested coyote fed from a dead cow or sheep that was recently treated with Ivomec and ingested enough of the product to cure it's self? Do you still consider this as "naturally" recovering from mange?"
Gee, where have I heard that theory before? LOL!
Since I have previously acknowledged the possibility of insecticide consumption, I certainly wouldn't consider that "NATURALLY" occuring.
This was a theory that was previously presented without documentation of whether passive protection was even possible through ingestion of insecticides.
I would be the first to question my own theory since I have witnessed a reluctance by coyotes to feed on recently vaccinated livestock after it has died.
FWS: "What we need to do is create a forum for links to articles, studies, reports, etc, etc."
What's stopping you?
~SH~
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Post by robertw on Apr 3, 2007 10:31:19 GMT -6
Wiley;"I would be the first to question my own theory since I have witnessed a reluctance by coyotes to feed on recently vaccinated livestock after it has died."
From talking with various cattlemen and feed lot managers about this subject (why some cattle are feed upon and not others) over the years most have agreed that this observation is dependent on what products the livestock was treated with.
LA 200, Terramycin and other oxytetracyclenes (sp?) seem to create the most coyote avoidance on dead animal caresses. Penicillin based antibiotics, wormers, and vacines (red nose, black leg ect) do not seem to create this reluctance in coyotes to feed on the carcass.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 3, 2007 10:44:43 GMT -6
Assuming this theory is correct (coyotes are more reluctant to feed on oxytetracyclines such as LA 200), that still doesn't assure that enough insecticide (Ivermectin, Cydectin, Tramisol, ect) can be ingested by a coyote feeding on a treated carcass to rid itself of the mange.
Another interesting observation that I and others have made is a mangy coyote paired up with a perfectly healthy coyote. One would think transmition would be inevitable.
~SH~
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Post by robertw on Apr 3, 2007 10:54:58 GMT -6
I am not familiar with Cydectin but the tramisol wormers that we use to use would not affect external parasites.
With the Ivomec, if the animal was recently treated before death it is entirely possible that the coyote could come in contact with or consume an amount in excess of what it needs for treatment.
As pointed out in some of the postings above it takes time before you can visually witness mange infestation.
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Post by romans117 on Apr 3, 2007 11:04:22 GMT -6
Some is SW Kansas would appear to have recovered from mange if someone was looking close enough. Every early season coyote I caught that had mange got a shot of Ivomec and released. Jeff You sir are a gentleman. Intra muscular or subcutaneously. Why would you release them?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Apr 3, 2007 12:01:39 GMT -6
I would be the first to question my own theory since I have witnessed a reluctance by coyotes to feed on recently vaccinated livestock after it has died.
fwiw dept- I see dairy dump piles all year- and see where coyotes will feed on some calves, but not others in same dump. I talked to a few farmers about this when it came up, and their thought too was that the cavles that had taken more drugs weren't eaten.
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Post by Richard Nelson on Apr 3, 2007 12:40:03 GMT -6
without a doubt, if a calf has been treated they make poor bait for shooting over, but a still born calf will work just fine. Yotes will eat a treated calf late in the winter when they get real hungry though.
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Post by coyotewhisperer on Apr 3, 2007 16:45:34 GMT -6
Interesting to see how coyotes interact with dead cattle across the country. I work at a 10,000 head feedlot. We start cattle then ship them to another yard to be finished. We have a pen called the chronic pen. Thats where the cattle go after about 5 shots or 120$. Then its either live or die. The coyotes love the chronic pen cattle and consume them entirely. So the theory of coyotes not eating heavily doctored cattle is not true here. 99% of the chronics that die would have no ivermectin still in their system but would have plenty of other stuff in their system. Romans I treated them and released them because they weren't worth anything and I had the ivermectin so hoped they would recover and breed. Released my pee coyotes also had them too long and couldn't bare to kill them so they were released with the ivomec, rabies shots and 5 way.
Jeff
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Post by Wiley on Apr 3, 2007 17:25:41 GMT -6
Jeff: "99% of the chronics that die would have no ivermectin still in their system but would have plenty of other stuff in their system."
Are you sure of that (plenty of other stuff in their system)?
If they have already been treated and left to die in the chronic pen, isn't there a good chance that the oxytet drugs would already be out of their system by the time they die?
Do me a favor Jeff and check a bottle of LA 200 (oxytetracyclene), Teramyocin (sp?), or Mycotil or any other popular antibiotic and see what the withdrawl times are. You can bet that the recommended withdrawl times would error on the side of food safety so there would certainly be no more antibiotics in their system after that time. I would think most chronics would die after that point. I should know this stuff since I am BQA certified but I don't have my antibiotic withdrawl information at my fingertips at this time. I haven't fed cattle in a few years and we quit feeding our own calves due to downsizing our herd.
I tend to agree with the cattlemen that RW talked to and "Farreaching" particularly with LA 200 which is an oxytetracyclene for lung problems. I can smell oxytet from a mile away.
Cydectin works much the same way as Ivomectin. It's a pour on insecticide although ivermectin has been given to dogs as a wormer. Can someone also see what the withdrawl time is on Ivomectin which is a brand name of an ivermectin product. That would be a good starting point.
This is already leading to more questions than answers.
What's the name of the feedlot you work for Jeff if you don't mind my asking. I have been through a lot of feedlots in Kansas. Decatur, Callicrate, Irisk and Doll, Poky, and others I can't remember.
~SH~
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Post by coyotewhisperer on Apr 3, 2007 19:20:31 GMT -6
I won't post the feedlots name but I'll pm it to you. I'll look at the withdrawal times on micotil but we don't use anything else thats been listed. Micotil was one of the last shots as was biomyicin or duramyicin which may be the same as above just different name. And I'm quite positive many that die are before the withdrawal time has ended. they get eaten just the same in fact our hospital pen row the coyotes will eat the cattle that were just doctored that day and died in the evening.....next morning worked on hard by coyotes right in the pen. In oct its not uncommon to be picking up a dead in say pen 300, while a pup of the year eats on a dead right in front of you in 301 those are both hospital pens and are moved home every third day or so and especially with Draxxin that lasts two weeks you know they are still on medicine.
Jeff
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Post by Zagman on Apr 4, 2007 8:35:29 GMT -6
NYS has a new law that states that dead cows have to be buried or composted......
A full grown holstein on top of the ground will go untouched 99% of the time.....new born calves are cleaned up quickly, even if composted, the coyotes did them out. One farm I trap on has a big compost pile and he says the coyotes often pull new borns out within hours of burial, or at least that night.
Oddly, for some reason, if a cow is buried or composted, SOME coyotes WILL dig them up and work on them........usually hitting the rear ends first.
Zagman
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