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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 19:44:40 GMT -6
I'm surprised no one brough up thisi nteresting factoid:
In the early 1700s, indigenous red foxes were inhabitants of mixed forest and open areas while the native gray fox inhabited more dense woodlands. In the 1750s, the European red fox was introduced into the eastern coastal areas of the United States and likely interbred with the native red fox to produce a hybrid (mix) of both types of fox. The hybrid fox is now considered to be the only red fox type in the east.
How is this hybred different from our indigenous fox?
I don't know...do you?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 19:47:27 GMT -6
how little you know about me, yet how much you pontificate.
first of all- I hunted beagles extensivbely threoughout te 60s, 70s, and 80s.
I mean all out, full time. In the top fox, rabbit habitat in the state.
I know what the fox populations were like.
and as far as your little slam of 5 years- stick it buddy. Thats not even remotely true, and it just shows a littleness of your part that lately's not been unexpected.
I'd say more, but I'd have to delete myself once again.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 20:04:26 GMT -6
you son of a gun, I distincly remember threads of your own posting telling how you just started canine trapping seriously in recent history. ok, just a straight up question, what is the best year numbers wise of red fox you ever caught in any given year of your life, now or 30 years go whatever. I`ll believe whatever you tell me, but if you tell me 35 head then you have never trapped reds in their hey day like grawe did in areas close to you, so you can`t possibly claim to know red populations back then based on you ran beagles. you take stuff as insults that aren`t insults at all, just what is , facts as best we know them told by yourself.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 15, 2006 20:08:12 GMT -6
Steve..I was told..cant remember by who that the cross breeding was what caused our frosted rumped reds here. Any one know if there is any truth to that ?
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Post by td on Nov 15, 2006 20:19:06 GMT -6
All I know is I've never caught a red, or a gray for that matter, and we normally have a lot of coyotes. Looks like it ought to be good fox habitat to me, but what do I know, since we've never had any fox. The only reds I heard of for years were in the bigger towns/cities. Dad's bought fur since 1959, and he never bought over a handful of reds a year from a 50-60 mile radius. Then, a few years ago, our coyote numbers went way down and stayed that way for several years. Parvo I guess, since we've always had mange. Shortly after, reds showed up in my small town.
The yotes have been coming back in the last four or five years, with last year seeming to be the strongest, and I haven't seen or heard of anybody seeing our town reds. I also pass through two small towns where I regularly seen a few on the way to work. A pair copulating in the ditch a half block from the city limits sign one late winter morning before daylight during a near blizzard was the high point. lol Haven't seen any of them since last fall. I'm guessing they are now coyote turds, but don't know for sure.
Why didn't the reds ever expand when the coyote numbers were so low? Was it disease or just enough coyotes and bobcat left to keep them in the towns? BTW, I never seen a mangy town fox.
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Post by Stef on Nov 15, 2006 20:27:15 GMT -6
Edited..thanks SteveHere in Québec we can see since the past 10+ years or so how the coyotes hurted the red fox population. In the big forest... Wolves are still there and they pull out the coyotes from the bush. The result.. We still can find red fox in the forest. Agricultural land.... foxes are almost gone. You will find some close to the houses, factories but in the large fields of the country on the farmland... Forget to catch foxes in good number... Its history now. And Québec agricultural land was full of foxes before, government even had a bounty system in the old days. Enough said...........
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 20:47:31 GMT -6
hes was talking cross breeding of reds stef...
Bob- Relatively recent compared to my water trapping. I started trapping coyotes in 1985 as a way to get coon trapping permission. I started seriously trapping coyotes a few years later...I became obsessed with coyotes a few years after that. for the past 12 or so years, I've been mostly fulltime, and spend darn near 12 months out and about- and I'm always studying coyote sign, patterns, etc. In no way have I ever stated nor will state I'm the best coyote trapper ever- but I have stated and do state, I'm a good one. No brag. I am. Just fact.
And so are you. So are many others on here and so will many others become good canine trappers.
but thats besides the point.....
and as far as trapping fox- thats besides the point also. Straight up, I've never caught more than 32 reds in a year. Last year. But that means nothing. Fox were non existent here during the last 20 years. Back in the 90s, 7 was a GOOD year. My hallmark coyote year of 107, I took 12 reds and a few grays.
But what is more to the point- I was in as good a position as any trapper to know the state of the red fox population during the 60s and 70s. When trappers were done for the year- I was still out there.
I knew and hunted regularly every wood patch, brush pile, hedgerow and grass strip in a large area. Maybe 75 miles by 75 miles- not including multiple year trips to western MN for jacks and northern MN for snowshoes. I mean I was obsessed and to say hounds had a lot to do with my divorce, would be true.
but back to the point. We had what we in the area, considered a good red fox population. Without any coyotes. that disappeared. It's back- or darn close to it. I see just about the SAME amount of sign, the same number of "seen" fox, the same number of dens, etc...as I did back in what was our "heyday" here.
western Mn on the Dakota border is not even close to our terrain here. night and day. Indiana would be closer to Dakota type country than my aera of MN. Think Ozarks.
You could argue that the Dakotas ands western Mn were NOT strongholds traditionally of red fox. It was and is, coyote country. With the advent of all out war on coyotes, their numbers got knocked down, and perhaps that allowed an inflated red population to take exist.
Perhaps...
one size does not fit all....
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Post by ohiyotee on Nov 16, 2006 5:47:08 GMT -6
Steve, I agree that the fox decline might be from other sources than strictly coyotes. But i think that they in may ways contribute to there demise. If not directly eating them, then completing with them for the same things. Lets face it red fox are Englishman and coyotes are vikings. Here is an interesting though , You state that you stared to seriously trap coyotes around say 89 or so. Has the red fox benefited in your area since you are now killing 100 yotes a year. maybe not , but something to continplate. Here for about 10 years we had a Mix of yotes and fox. I thought with our diverse habitate that we would always have it that way . This area is reverting back to forest and bush as agriculture here is on the decline. but With the recent influx of Amish it will be interesting to see what happens as the land goes back the other way. As little as 5 years ago i was still catching 25 reds a year a couple of greys and 7 or 8 yotes running 40 traps for the 2 weeks before deer season. Well it aint that way anymore now you get maybe 4 or 5 of a family group.with "conventional "methods. And sadly maybe 20 yotes. That doesn't sound like a lot but around here that's a great catch with traps. So i must conclude that the yotes have something to do with it.
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Post by trappnman on Nov 16, 2006 7:32:29 GMT -6
If not directly eating them, then completing with them for the same things.
For sure, the dominant predator has a relationship to other predators.
They do compete for habitat and prey. Which is why good habitat, abundant prey means all things prosper or have prospered.
but thats not saying "coyotes killed and ran out the reds"
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Post by billkasten on Nov 16, 2006 9:16:28 GMT -6
Very interesting disscusion guys. In my area here in northeast Pa. One thing I've noticed is our woodchuck population has gotten to be almost nonexistant. The canines showing up in the summer with mange has remained about constant and has had an effect on the red fox . Raccoons have had some kind of desease ,I think probably distemper and there numbers are way down or could This be attributed to coyote over population ? As for our fox population verses our coyote population They seem to be about the same . IMHO
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 9:28:15 GMT -6
bill, same as what? same as each other, same as ten yerars ago, what? I still maintain coyotes are 100% responcible for the decline of red fox and think it outragious to even consider it being anything else at all. lol, like the wolves aren`t going to be the reason why yellowstone has a big fat ZERO coyotes shortly. anyway, I`m out of it. I`ve said my say and nothing will ever change my mind one bit, nor can I say anything else that will change anyone elses mind.
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Post by billkasten on Nov 16, 2006 9:49:09 GMT -6
Bob I didn't mean that coyotes didn't have a negitive affect on the red fox here by any means. Just that this year for some reason and I admit its only a small sample I caught more fox then Coyote , But most of the fox I caught were grays . I know of at least three litters of reds that were around this spring that have disapeared due to mange and or coyotes. Back in the seventies there were way more fox then there are now for sure. Russ used to harvest several hundred with lots of repeat catches ,not any more. Another interesting change is that seldom in the seventies and eighties would you hear of a bobcat around now there seems to be quite a few .
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 16, 2006 9:58:28 GMT -6
I know of at least three litters of reds that were around this spring that have disapeared due to mange and or coyotes.
I have been feeding a litter near my house all summer long. If I would have set traps in August, I know I could have done "6 in a row" like Bob does in his DVD. About 2 weeks before the season, I checked out the area...no new fox droppings but there was a nice big pile of coyote scat. I just knew those pups were gone. All I have caught there so far is 2 reds, and one had nasty mange.
Bob, how long will it take a fox to succumb to mange? Will they die over summer or does it take freezing temps to kill them off?
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 10:22:55 GMT -6
they will die in about 60 days from first mite on them , summer or winter. bill ,etc. one thing I`ve seen in the last throws of an expiring fox population due to coyote presssure is that the litters of fox break way early, like august even. I suppose a survaval attempt. and the good old days of doubles and triples and if you caught one red it was a given you caught 6-8 in a row in the same set are over. you hardly ever get doubles anymore, hardly ever even a repeat. just a stray here and there- and in the most unlikely places. then finally you just catch none except around citys or housing additions and like land use areas, in say 3-5 years after it degrades to singles. the greys will hang on a few years after the reds, but they will go extinct on you too eventually. and the last 20-50 fox you catch over the last 2-3 years, they will run 90% aged adults, no pup survival at all. and when the pups don`t survive and the last breeders die from whatever causes, that`s all she wrote boys, the red fox go into history like the last fronteir. so you guys degraded to the oddball fox here or there where they use to be easy as pie, the end is near.
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Post by lynxcat on Nov 16, 2006 10:30:04 GMT -6
I dont know...but it could have all started like this...
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Post by lynxcat on Nov 16, 2006 10:32:43 GMT -6
you son of a gun, I distincly remember threads of your own posting telling how you just started canine trapping seriously in recent history. . Sorry Bob...but you ACCUSED me of only trapping fox for a couple of years...when I said that I'd only recently started hitting them hard.... NOT taking sides YET....but...
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 10:41:52 GMT -6
yup , that`s what you said. something to the effect you had barely messed with them and then some locals wanted you trapping them and all the sudden you are catching hundreds in the farming fields along the river valleys, lol, where it`s all reds and no coyotes on account of the people. I`ve no doubt you caught hundreds in those hay fields there in southern idaho along the snake, or un that alley north. they are thick there in a pocket like md has, because no daggone coyotes there. step a tad out into the sage tho and waddya have? you know, coyotes all the sudden and no fox. fox are easy, if you have them. they are frigging genoiuses if you don`t have them. about like the fox trapper that was soooo good he caught most all the fox, and if in areas where there were none, he still got 1/2 of them, like you and me. ;D
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Post by billkasten on Nov 16, 2006 10:43:28 GMT -6
Bob I've heard alot of old trappers at least the ones in this area seem to be of the opinion that mange mites surive some how without a host. In this area there are alot of rock s for them to den in and the rock s don't change much from year to year. Were in other parts of the country most dens are in the ground and new dens are dug every year.Any way mange just dosen't seem to leave this area . For any extended period of time. Now if mange dose not survive in the rocks without a host are infected animals from other aeras coming in to keep this area infected with mange?
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csiwildlife
Tenderfoot...
people protect what they value
Posts: 8
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Post by csiwildlife on Nov 16, 2006 10:48:13 GMT -6
Steve Ive read and studied the same reports as you and delved into it a little deeper myself, I also done a paper on it. One thing you all remember canines have the nack of increasing their breeding rate substantially in direct response to harvest numbers. In the fur boom untold thousands of fox were being harvested, many by some of you here on this site. Then the fur crash. During the boom the fox were in high gear reproduction mode. First year pups were breeding, this could have been sustained indefinitely, contrary to the antis, it could have been viewed as good the fox were repopulating as fast as the trappers could take them. The crash, well no one told the fox that the next year hardly a fraction of the trappers were going to go after them. They were still in high reproduction mode. Now we see overpopulation. What happens in overpopulation. You see in the high harvest numbers any or most diseased animals were taken, any that were left were sufficiently isolated so as to be of no great concern. But the end of the fur boom the great fur crash ended this good sequence of events. Now the fox are packed in shoulder to shoulder. Diseased animals were left next to healthy animals. Disease ran rampant huge die offs occurred. Then the coyote appeared. I do not believe as a single factor the coyote would have had any major effect on the fox, but as fox numbers crashed due to overpopulation malnutrition due to increased population and food competition and disease. The coyotes appearance added another and higher competition to the struggling fox. Remember until European influence all the canines, wolves, fox, and coyotes coexisted for thousands of years. But the fox at this point were already struggling due to the hyped reproduction rates and loss of controlled harvest. Now the coyote and his far ranging habits helped spread the diseases farther and wider and direct competition for limited resources helped speed and increase the demise of fox populations. Also the populations of fox during the boom days WERE NOT NORMAL, they were above carrying capacity but were maintainable due to high harvest rates which reduced the populations sufficiently enough during winter to carry over a healthy breeding population to spring . and for those of you who were there during that time Id wager a good many of your fox were young of the year. So lets not lay the blame were it dose not belong lets look at all the facts. In all actuality the fall of the fox is directly linked to Bob Barker and all his merry animal rights activist. They literally love the animals to death. The coyote should be viewed as a welcome member to our fur collections. If the fur market crash had not happened I'm willing to bet you would never had noticed any real effects on the coyotes emergence. Think on that csiwildlife joshcrissen
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Post by mikespring on Nov 16, 2006 10:57:27 GMT -6
Well,I wont speak of what I don`t know...maybe our fox population here in western NY has (during my 25 years of trapping experience) always been at that 10% level Bob...but I Will say this...it has not changed during that 25 year period enough to even talk about.
Coon duke, I have an area I trap were within 2 square miles I know of 3 active and separate coyote dens...within this same area I know of and watched fox raise 3 separate litters...this fall I trapped out the fox close to their den locations...all areas did well,took a few coyotes as well. Next year will do it again.
Oh...I must live in the land of milk and honey...we have lots of woodchucks.
Bob...you were going to comment on Ricks farms...I would be interested to here what your thoughts are.
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