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Post by Traveler on Nov 16, 2006 11:01:46 GMT -6
Sorry csiwidlife......and nothing meant personally towards you but you're therioes would hold water about like a fishing net in my country.
If this was all based from studies.......then the studies was pure BS !!! Bob Barker and his crew didn't have squat to do with the loss of foxes in my area.
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Nov 16, 2006 11:18:10 GMT -6
Mdtrapper, what part of Md are you trapping in? This will help alot to know, as if you are in western MD in the mountains, red fox would be less, more greys and certainly more coyotes. Central area you would be swamped in foxes unless you trap outside of the DC metro area with its influx of coyotes the last few years. Eastern shore, you would also be swamped in reds in most areas, but then I hear reports of coyote activity in some areas is increasing. I know north central and I know that the reds are in high population right now. The amount of mange I am seeing really hits the point hard. Tera told me 4 years or whatever back that she and her dad caught 60 fox off their farm alone in one season . Another trapper in carrol county caught about 200 fox and I asked him how many farms that took and he said 8. Maybe he was BSing, maybe he had the super hot crossings all lined up. I myself have not found myself setting such a super hotspot, my best is 18 in a season off a few spots.
Now as to SE PA in PSB country, I was told they do not have as high a fox population as in my area of MD, that it may take twice as much territory to catch there what could be caught where I am. 8 farms here for 50 fox may be 12-16 there for 50 fox, but I have never trapped in PSB country so I do not actually know, just going on what others have told me.
As of writing this today I have not run my trapline and it is pouring rain out there. My truck is in the shop from making funny noises yesterday and I am waiting for my father to come home so I can borrow his truck. So I can't tell you if a brown ball of mud coyote is waiting for me, brown ball of mangey red fox is waiting, or nothing at all as has been this last week.
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Nov 16, 2006 11:19:14 GMT -6
Can someone fill me in on this bob barker stuff? When, what? details?
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 12:19:53 GMT -6
csi wildlife, I`m of the opinion that whole thing you wrote was hogwash. bill, mange mites are dependant on the host for body heat. they die in a few short hours off the host, thus can not live in dirt or rock or any orther type of den, no host, no mite. for the same reason no sense in burrying or burning dead mangy animals, the mites die quick as body heat leaves. rick, getting to you, just wrong time of year to stay on long. I`ll get to it. mike, I m amazed to hear of 3 coyote and 3 fox dens in a few mile area. never seen or heard of such a thing. any chance it was one coyote den and one fox den and you saw the same ones as they moved the family every few weeks as is common in may and june? sometimes they leave one pup or two at one den and take the rest to a new close by den, giving the illusion of 2 dens instead of one. actually never heard of even one fox and one coyote den that close to each other, unless foxes under the house and coyotes in the woods type scenario. this is east or west. you truly must live in the land of milk and honey if 20-25 coyotes and 20-25 fox can live in 2-3 square miles. you have to adnmit , sounds a little out of the box. here we have maybe 1 coyote family/100 square miles ( 10 by 10), 2 at most, and no red fox in there at all unless in a sub division, airport or town or industrial complex. i.e. maybe one 50th the kind of numbers you are talking. I`d give my right arm for a chance to trap ground like that.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 16, 2006 12:31:23 GMT -6
This is typical farm country were I trap Bob. this is #6 here…caught 3 coyotes at the corner 100yds away. 20 years ago it was roughly the same # of canines…maybe in the hayday it would have been dozens of fox…I dunno, but this situation is typical for this part of my state
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Post by mikespring on Nov 16, 2006 12:45:40 GMT -6
Bob ...dont really no how to take that post...We share a mutual aquaitence....taxidermist from my area...you know him, next time you speak to him, ask him about the 3 separate fox dens(thats 3 separate families) All within site of his back porch. While your at don`t be afraid to ask him about me.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 16, 2006 13:04:18 GMT -6
PS Bob..almost forgot,also ask him about the 15-to18 reds,3 coyotes he pulled of his 10-15 acre spread...and I`m a 1/4 mile away in 2 different directions pulling 16 or so reds and half dozen coyotes out of the same 1 square mile area! (operantly you haven't seen it all ).
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 13:44:41 GMT -6
nope, never seen that! if I was you I`d quit my job and trap 100 spots just like that if you have them that thick. man, we`ve nothing even close to that, not here or in ks or wyoming. even in the fox hey day 2-3 dens/section was absolute tops and them next to barren sections all the way around and NO coyotes.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 13:54:44 GMT -6
I have taken as high as 24 coyote off 40 acres in 4 nights, but it was a feedlot deadpile and coyotes were coming in from miles and miles. also did 24 coyotes off a hogfarm dead pile 2 years ago, but same deal, it was the coyotes from miles away in all directions and even then took trapping in october for 2 weeks and again in march for 2 weeks. respectfully I`d say the 3 fox dens in sight were all one den, either moving regular or leaving pups at each den to give the illusion of 3 dens. same on the 3 coyote dens. catching 16 in the fall is the 6-8 total living there and the migrators in, not 3 familys there all at once. it`s just not "natural" or normal or expected or , really, even possible. having denned extensively in the spring to the tune of over a thousand dens in the last 15 years, I can tell you fox move every 3 weeks or so, usually less than a 1/4 mile, and sometimes split litters to give the illusion of many dens. about 10% are double dens, i.e. one adult male, 2 adult females and 10-12 pups. ONCE in my life, out of over a thousand dens I got a bonafide triple den. but these were all in coyote free areas and also no other dens for a mile or more in all directions. just the straight up how it is from a professional very efficient and accomplished hardly never miss one denner. if you have seen different, well, you have seen different.
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Post by shagnasty on Nov 16, 2006 14:04:31 GMT -6
another thing to consider, catching 20 fox off one 100 acre farm over a month is not the same as catching 20 fox off one 100 acre farm in a couple nights. areas with good movement, low predation, and high populations will allow steady catches. i see the same thing with beaver/otter, whereas some areas, you dink what is there and that is it. some of you obviously live in an area with tremendous migration, because around here, you dink a few off a farm and that is it unless you want to wait forever for one here and one there.
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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 16, 2006 14:04:56 GMT -6
There are also still high numbers of fox left through out much of south central Pa as well at the se, md, va, and nj, just nobody putting in the 18hrs/day to catch the numbers. This is why all the fox are near the leggets and psb, lol.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 14:14:18 GMT -6
that psb is a workaholic, no doubt about it. no fat on that boy. leggets, don`t know, but their age would indicate fox must be thick as fleas where they live. as would their relating 60 fox/location. that is unheard of anywhjere else in the known world. all the hard work and hrs and smarts in the world won`t put 60 fox in traps at one location here or anywhere else but md. I am a prime example of all the want to in the world doesn`t equate to go when you are pushing in age. you have to have super populations and trap smart to overcome the inability to maintain the 18 hr days a psb can put in for extended periods. I might could stay up a month with him, but eventually I`d cave in anymore. push comes to shove, youth will outwork an old guy every time ,given the same numbers to trap, always.
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Post by trappnman on Nov 16, 2006 14:43:03 GMT -6
real hard to trap coyotes when there weren't any....
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 14:57:53 GMT -6
well, can you still get half of them when there are none? ah HA!
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Post by Rick on Nov 16, 2006 15:26:31 GMT -6
Reds and Coyotes...living together in perfect harmony ;D
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 16, 2006 15:27:53 GMT -6
seems like I'm trying that all the time! I chastise myself for trying to catch what isn't there.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 16, 2006 15:45:49 GMT -6
rick, those 2 weren`t buddies. you know that. and who do you reckon got caught first? you going to tell me the coyote? don`t do that now or everything else will be suspect too. boy would I like to be a little mouse hearing you discuss this same thread in about 5-8 years from now. it`d be just too , well, too much.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 16, 2006 15:53:14 GMT -6
Well I guess we will have to discuss this topic in another 10 or so...apperently they have not wiped out the reds here..like some claim..they have been here for 29years and the reds are still here (in decent #s). Impact yes...decimation no...theres more to it.
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Post by Rick on Nov 16, 2006 18:44:42 GMT -6
No Bob, I know what happened there...I was just messin' with you guys.
Here's the thing...we DID discuss this...on another forum...5-6 yrs. ago. Discussed it at length...scared the Hell out of me. And, really, not a whole lot has changed.
We haven't had the Coyotes as long as Mike...at least not in numbers. I caught my first one 12 yrs. ago. I think Mike put it pretty well...the Coyotes have definitely had an impact, but so far the Reds seem to be holding up pretty well.
I guess the thing that scares me the most is a disease outbreak. Distemper, or a bad mange outbreak, that really knocks back the fox population...will the Coyotes ever let 'em recover?
Rick.
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 16, 2006 19:35:52 GMT -6
We always say that disease effects furbearers when they are at high populations. We use it as a reason to control the pops. But, it just doesn't seem to hold true. The parts of PA and MD with a good red population do not seem to have the mange percentage as the more northern parts of PA. Coyotes here run around 50% mange...and I have only seen one coyote in my life in my area that wasn't in one of my traps. JimV (Freak) sees close to a 50% mange rate in coyotes and they are not really thick there either. I have been hearing reports of sick gray fox all over the central part of PA the last few years...I assume distemper. Do the southern states with good gray pops. have big distemper dieoffs?
I was told by some of the older trappers in my area that mange is what really hurt the reds...and we never really seemed to get rid of it. They talk of the days when they caught doubles regularly, now struggle to catch a handful of singles a season. I know a farmer who set a trap in the back 40 and would take double digit foxes there years ago. I think at one time the reds were as thick here as anwhere else.
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