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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 15, 2006 13:29:07 GMT -6
I laid out two points and you didnt have a thing to say except that you have me trumped! LOL
1. "Now its 30 fox out of 60-80 sets, what about the 1 fox/7 traps ou ratio you posted a while back. Believe me Bob I am not doubting your experience or numbers, im just saying your population comparisans to this part of the country are way off.
And its because I see that, that I can understand why the rest here are frustrated with your been there/done that talk when you act like you know everything about their area."
2. "But you are still off when you compare your old numbers to this part of the country. Ask Phil and you would find out that those 34 fox came from over 2x as many sets as you ran and was also his first day over 30 in 4-5-6 years. Your 60 trap days are 6 fox days, with a super day being 10-12- possibly 15 on a very best day.
And again, the ONLY reason I bring your numbers and faulty math into this is an attempt to show you that your ignorance towards the reality of fox and their numbers in my neck of the woods is a direct comparisan to the frustration some others here feel towards your been there, done that, know it all attitude when it comes to their area, animals and situations."
So you have me "trumped"? What you say about Pa and Md is off, right there is the math and you have nothing at all to say about it. You have proved nothing. No big deal or anything, just stating the facts.
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Post by bobm on Nov 15, 2006 13:44:24 GMT -6
I doubt any reliable records exist but, it would be mighty interesting to have some idea of the coyote/fox population over every 20 year period for the last 200 years. I don't know, but suspect that at the beginning of that time period coyotes were probably pretty prevalent in my area (west of the twin citites). As settlement began to take place and animal farming began to show up, I would guess that every method possible was used to exterminate them possibly opening the door for a massive expansion of fox. Couple that with a period of soilbanking, sodbusting, wetland drainage, etc. I often wonder if the current cycle of high populations of coyotes is just the recurrence of a repeating cycle that last occurred before all of us were born (even Bob!). Though I've not lived as long as many of you (only mid 40's) in my little part of the world, the fox population has seemed to follow the duck population up and down. I often wonder if fox are maybe a bit more connected to a wetland environment that coyotes. Or maybe simply coincidence. With the exception of the personal insults, this is a mighty interesting thread to me.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 14:10:39 GMT -6
md, lets get something straight, there is no inconsistency in my numbers. I say I did 20 some fox out of 60 sets, I did it. I say I routinely did 20-35 a day out of 60-80 sets, I did it. proof, plenty in photos, sales receipts, tax records bla bla. but you won`t even identify yourself so why would I feel obligated to prove anything at all to you? buy the dvd and see for your own eyes 20 in a day out of 60 sets. this in good fox country, like md, or tiny pockets in the west. the 1 per 7 is in the standard humdrum country. you can`t take conversations on other threads and claim them to the conversations at hand. it appears you are more interested in trying to make me out a liar than anything else. sorry dude or dude-ess, bob doesn`t lie so you can`t get me on that, ever. bob m, just to set the record straight , I`m younger than you. I may have lived longer days than most, but a year is a year. and no my trapping days aren`t over. never seen anyone yet that could keep up with me for long. I`ve still plenty of steam left. as far as fox records, most states have harvest records ad would the old nafa ( dominion soudak ) records be available. granted value woul factor in harvwestr size, but is plain to see hru ther fur boom essentially no or very small numbers of coyotes were taken in the east, and large numbers of fox. now it is the reverse everywhere except that tiny portion of se pa and md.
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Post by bobm on Nov 15, 2006 14:18:31 GMT -6
No offense intended BobW. Just trying to lighten things up. BTW, my age is mid 40's, not born in the 40's.
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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 15, 2006 14:22:32 GMT -6
The circle continues...
I don't doubt what youve caught, how much, or how many traps it took you to do so...remember?
"Believe me Bob I am not doubting your experience or numbers..."
Then Bob says, "it appears you are more interested in trying to make me out a liar than anything else."
Nah, thats not the case either...remember?
"And again, the ONLY reason I bring your numbers and faulty math into this is an attempt to show you that your ignorance towards the reality of fox and their numbers in my neck of the woods is a direct comparisan to the frustration some others here feel towards your been there, done that, know it all attitude when it comes to their area, animals and situations."
What you dealt with is different that what "we" deal with here, and you CAN'T compare the apples to oranges. When you try to compare two different areas and times your ignorance shines through and the people elsewhere who know better get frustrated.
I didn't think it was all that complicated, but apparently it is.
Dude
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Post by ohiyotee on Nov 15, 2006 14:38:08 GMT -6
"What you dealt with is different that what "we" deal with here, and you CAN'T compare the apples to oranges. " I don't see how you can say that we are talking about fox with no coyotes , is that what you have?
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 16:11:11 GMT -6
bob m, lol, `48. ohiote, md has essentially no coyotes, like you and I and the rest of the eastern u.s. USED to have. md thinks we don`t realize that. it is apples to apples. md just hasn`t got apple blight yet , so md. should be slaying the reds like psb or anyone else willing to work that hard. fox are fox
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 16:13:11 GMT -6
shag- no feelings hurt, but tired of seeing every comment made on any subject negative.
thats not the direction I want this forum to turn to, and it will be deleted when it occurs.
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Post by Rick on Nov 15, 2006 16:24:42 GMT -6
mdtrapper...really...I would think Bob's numbers in really good fox country to be correct.
I consider 6 fox days fairly routine and 10-12 fox super days like you said....but out of 36-40 traps....and running over marginal ground here in Western N.Y.
I mean absolutely no offense to the big numbers fox takers from Pa/Md, because I know the level of dedication and the work ethic involved. But...you do appear to have a very high fox population...with no coyotes to speak of. Wether or not the coyotes are at the root of red fox population declines I'll tell you this....they will CHANGE your fox line.
Rick.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 16:49:47 GMT -6
rick, is your fox ground in wooded/pasture type areas, I mean your whole line? vs the open row crop or barren western prairie type ground. I`m thinking foxes are still hurt bad in the woodsy maine type ground, but not as bad as the illinois/indiana/ohio type ground. the poor little rascals are just devastated here. in wyoming if it is a sheep area with near extermination level coyote control ( yes it can be done with year `round diligent effort by planeand ground), fox are thick. move over just a few miles to exclusive cattle ground ( i.e. no coyote control) and zero reds -unless living under the ranch house or in the small towns. get high in the timber and there are very few fox and very few coyotes both.
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Post by Dhat on Nov 15, 2006 17:29:39 GMT -6
steve was the study you read by a sargeant or voigt or was it another study. have read most of the studies just curious as to which one you were referring to
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Post by Rick on Nov 15, 2006 17:41:55 GMT -6
Bob, mostly small family dairy farms, 50-90 head, 100-150 acres, interspersed with suburbia. Some bigger 700-1000 head operations...corn, alfalfa, soybeans. Woodlands with a lot of creeks and brushy habitat.
What strikes me odd...on the bigger dairy operations, with many hundreds of acres of what appears perfect coyote habitat...I've caught very few coyotes. That part of my line's a fox factory. Here at home, with the small plots and subdivisions is where most of the coyotes show up.
My canine catch has been 8-9-10% coyotes. Like Mike said, there's only 60-70- miles between us, and I believe he's more like 25% (?) coyotes. Another 60-70 miles East is Zagger with his 85-90% coyotes.
This has always been a very interesting debate for me. I'm still confused as to what's really going on out there.
Rick.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 15, 2006 17:52:08 GMT -6
Corn firlds, cabbage, alphalpha fields, soybeans, with most timber areas 40 to 50 acres at most ...lots of abandoned farms gone to weeds a lot like zaggers..he is in hilly country,Rick and I are considered flatlanders.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 15, 2006 17:53:17 GMT -6
LOL..beat me too it Rick.
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Post by Rick on Nov 15, 2006 17:58:44 GMT -6
It's Hill Country to the South of me Mike. Good fox ground for me a decade ago...now mostly coyotes.
Rick.
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Nov 15, 2006 18:14:54 GMT -6
Let me chime in. Bob might be basing some fox in MD statistics from things I tell him, such as killing 18 in a season and theres still foxes killing guineas. Add the 17 taken 1 mile away last season. Counting 30 fox turds of different ages 2 summers ago when going into fall, all in 2 days of walking 10 acres. Taking 60 in goofy crazy hay sets at no more than 8-10 locations or whatever it was I had hay sets on last season. Killing a dozen fox, season still on, big snow, 6 BIG ducks killed all at once by foxes, trap 4 more fox within days, one pooping duck feathers.
Now something I noticed once before is happening again. A coyote starts hanging out at certain farms and suddenly the reds stop working sets to a mere trickle. The reds leave tracks all over the place, but walk right by sets. Is the coyote making them nervous? At one farm a coyote is killed in deer season, afterwards red foxes are running all over again. They kinda disapeared when the yote was hanging out.
BTW DC area is having some real coyote issues, a nuisance trapper took 17 out of Rockville, thats ALOT of coyotes in a spot in suburban MD! No stats on the red fox population there, well I haven't heard anything on it. I saw a roadkill yote off the ramp for Rockville on 495 though, about 4 years ago.
Now this year the yotes seem to be increasing in my general area, more reports than ever before, 4 now, it is usually 1 every other year and some roadkills spotted. The mange is bad in the reds this year from the ones I have caught so far. If mange kills off a large % of the reds, the void may be filled- by coyotes? This would go in with the disease theory.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 19:20:10 GMT -6
one amazing story ( true, not a story) that daddy legget told me before his passing was that they had only 60 farms, and some of them they would catch 60 fox out of 2 traps 10 feet apart, over the course of a season. and set the line up and basically never move it, just keep bleeding off fox till they get their 400, 600, whatever it is they would catch. that is something ( 60/trap) I`ve never heard of done except in iowa or the dakotas pre-coyote invasion. and ask the leggets how many coyotres they catch in md. there is your fitting glove again. tman, that is baseline fox numbers before coyotes. ditto to rick and mike spring. so you see your foxes have been affected greatly or you all could be doing same as leggets or psb likely, with similar effort. we all know fox are easy, so it isn`t that some have super trapping abilitys. I`d wager most everyone on this thread has within a few % the same fox trapping abilitys, if they just had the fox to catch. rick, gotta hit the hay now but will comment on your ground later, like tomorrow or when ever I get caught up.
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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 15, 2006 19:25:28 GMT -6
"bob m, lol, `48. ohiote, md has essentially no coyotes, like you and I and the rest of the eastern u.s. USED to have. md thinks we don`t realize that. it is apples to apples. md just hasn`t got apple blight yet , so md. should be slaying the reds like psb or anyone else willing to work that hard. fox are fox"
Bob, this is what we call a diversion. You addressed nothing from my last post....Like the more you ignore the facts I present, the more correct you are? LOL!
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Post by 3n on Nov 15, 2006 19:26:48 GMT -6
I thought like Bob W but after reading a recent article by Odon Corr I'm leaning towards t-man...a combination of things not just coyotes.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 19:29:16 GMT -6
no, MD and PA are not baseline for fox populations in the rest of the united states throughout history.
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