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Post by possumblaster on Nov 14, 2006 23:32:27 GMT -6
In my own admittedly small experience, I can hear anywhere from 4 to 5 seperate packs sounding off shortly after dark from my porch every night.I generally will catch four or five reds and twice as many greys a season,50-60 coyotes a year. I have targeted fox often as not thinking I just wasn't a fox trapper. I tend to think that our fox #'s are way down,coyote #'s waaaay up. Lots of habitat-lots of food. If coyotes are not totally responsible,they have to be a big contributor to declining fox #'s. Possibly the same relationship as exhibited by wolves towards coyotes?The big kid always wins?
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 1:58:32 GMT -6
60-70 miles and say just 10 miles wide should support 5,000 red fox, i.e. 6-8 /section. so same deal, they are at 10% already. tman, habitat is just not plants and cover and feed, it is other critters, coyotes. so by semantics your idea of poorer habitat is correct since coyotes are a component of that habitat. I think most of you guys- gappa, rick and mike never saw what real red populations used to be(able to catch 25-35 a day from 80 sets), so you think these 10% populations, or a season catch going from 20 to 30 is a big deal. mike, also, thinking you could catch 500 and then going and doing are 2 different things. I`d bet they aren`t there like you think. extrapolating a small amount of cherry ground over to a 500 catch on a bigger scale never works for a variety of reasons.
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Post by trappnman on Nov 15, 2006 7:35:03 GMT -6
gee Bob- I forgot you were 125 years old.
Why would YOU be the only one to ever see reds in large numbers?
I've been trapping as long or longer than you-
my field experiences are just as valid- and HERE- we have as many reds as we used to have.
See- it all depends on WHERE you are talking.
which is why blanket statements never cover everything.
but you are right- I've never seen 6000 fox in small area...not in the 50s. not the 60s, not the 70s, not the 80s, not the 90s and not now.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 7:51:31 GMT -6
aaah, it` no use. probably the coyotes are raising orphan reds if the mama fox gets hit on the road. i`m done , had my say, don`t give a rats ass who believes what or who says what. all you 20-30 red fox a year experts , lol.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 8:13:41 GMT -6
pouting becuase we don't agree with you? whatever.
point is- we NEVER had 6000 fox in a small area- and it doesn't MATTER if 20-25 fox a year is what I catch- what matters is that catch compared to 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago HERE.
your experience is YOUR experience- doesn't make it true HERE.
don`t give a rats ass who believes what or who says what
you are just a trapper and YOUR experiences don't trump mine.
mine don't trump yours either- but thats not an option, is it- that anyone except you might possibly be right OR THAT WE both MIGHT BE RIGHT ?
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cndgmn
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 19
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Post by cndgmn on Nov 15, 2006 8:31:06 GMT -6
I'll have to go with steve on this one.
Its a real easy subject to start rambling off half cocked notions that are more ego than logic.
What proof do we have of how canines react to each other in their natural environment?We have video footage,personal observation and tracks.
In any footage I've seen,the dominant species would chase the subordinate species a short distance and give up.This was true of not just North American species such as wolves chasing coyotes off a kill but also video footage of Africa and other places.A wild dog will not chase down a jackal any more than a coyote will run down a red fox.Why?Because its not cost effective.It would cause them to burn vast amounts of energy,for what??
The tracks I've been seen in the snow also seem to back the above as well.
I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule as with anything else,but its the exception not the rule.
A trapped fox is proof of nothing other than the dogfight response.
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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 15, 2006 8:49:19 GMT -6
Well according to Bob there is no place left in the world with "a real fox population". I know guys that catch close to 20 on a good day but they are running 2x as many traps over a lot more miles than King Bob. PSB for example. Unless Bob is just that much better than everybody else around, since he is also an expert on animal populations across the entire US.... I would say most of his opinions stem from the trapping he once experienced many years ago and thinks it must have been the same everywhere else as well. Likewise, JMO.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 9:13:08 GMT -6
I always could catch 20-35 a day out of 60-80 sets in the west, or the east ,in non coyote areas. In fact still can, I show a day like that in the recent fox dvd I made and now market. ask wheelie, he was the camera man and can verify it as not staged, but actual catch numbers and out of 60 sets or some number close to that. you see ms. little md. I have indeed trapped all over the u.s. north south east west, do indeed have more numbers on red fox than any man dead or alive and can prove it with sales receipts and tax records and photos and any other way you would want to see proof. most of any man anywhere in the western hemisphere. so maybe you just might want to pay attention and risk you might gain from my knowledge. but , too bad, once more I`ve decided to ck. out and take it to the grave with me as I feel many here are not deserving of the knowlwedge I`ve worked so hard for for all these years. you work as hard at it for as many years as I have and you can get it anyway, so , do so! I rtemember when I first came on this site a moderator told me here trappers with numbers and expoerience were shown respect. well, it`s not happening on this thread with post like the above from tera or one of her male clones.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 9:17:17 GMT -6
ps, anyone who has been here any time at all can see her #1 post would indicate she has not a clue that we ( me) have discussed the un natural high fox populations in s.e. pa. and md. , especially relative to the majority of the rest of the u.s. maybe she better become a little more knoweledgable about who has said what before making jabs on her post #1.
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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 15, 2006 9:26:22 GMT -6
Now its 30 fox out of 60-80 sets, what about the 1 fox/7 traps ou ratio you posted a while back. Believe me Bob I am not doubting your experience or numbers, im just saying your population comparisans to this part of the country are way off. And its because I see that, that I can understand why the rest here are frustrated with your been there/done that talk when you act like you know everything about their area. Do we have a lot of fox, yes, but if it was anything you make it out to be Id be out in the mud trapping them right now. 10 fox for a 100 traps is one thing but 5-6 for a hundred traps in soupy mud is another. 30-40 a day/100 traps and ill trap naked in 10 degree weather through an ice storm!
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 15, 2006 9:36:42 GMT -6
this post has nothing to do with trapping fox!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could care less on how many you caught- what does that have to do with ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Respect goes both ways- why not try a little of it also.
I didn't say you were wrong- I DID say I have as much experience in the fields and woods as you.
perhaps consider that i nsomething, somewhere- you might not be 100% absolutely right.
shag- your attitude sure sucks lately. Give it a rest.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 9:46:54 GMT -6
md, probably I HAVE set a trap on their line, or a very similar area very close to them. been all over, east west south north. done it for a lifetime ,before it was fashionable, hi prices, low prices, made no never mind, I stayed the course and yes saw most everything there was to see. red fox were my first love and always were. coyotes it`s a love/hate relationship. I`ve devoted my life to studying them, winter summer spring fall, fulltime. not many guys can say that, that they did that on their own and also in academia. Anyway, so don`t assume I havn`t set a trap on your line. in fact had an invite to trap md with randy smith just a week ago but turned it down as I thought the fox would present no challenge ,and no live mkt there, and I do have one here. maybe I`ll take him up on it next year. he came here and banged 92 coyotes and TWO red fox in aboput 10 days or so. so I imagine he is a 20-30 red fox a day man in md. there are more that can do that easy than you might think. I mean it`s sure not brain surgery if you have the fox to work with at all. know the basics, have the ground and THE FOX, and be a workaholic. ask phil,(PSB) he`ll tell you. I just read a post he made recently where a guy asked him what kind of sets he made, on a thread where he showed 34 fox he caught that day. his answer? 100% dirtholes. and waddya want to bet everyone looked identicle? I just laugh when guys ask what kind of sets, what kind of lure, how far from the hole bla bla bla bla bla?. I smile and think, they havn`t a clue!
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 9:49:42 GMT -6
nope the thread isn`t about trapping fox, but it got drug that way by a first time poster. and yes numbers do matter. if nothing else it verifys a persons right to speak with a learned opinion on a subject.
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Post by mdtrapper on Nov 15, 2006 10:07:09 GMT -6
"if nothing else it verifys a persons right to speak with a learned opinion on a subject. "
My thoughts exactly.
But you are still off when you compare your old numbers to this part of the country. Ask Phil and you would find out that those 34 fox came from over 2x as many sets as you ran and was also his first day over 30 in 4-5-6 years. Your 60 trap days are 6 fox days, with a super day being 10-12- possibly 15 on a very best day.
And again, the ONLY reason I bring your numbers and faulty math into this is an attempt to show you that your ignorance towards the reality of fox and their numbers in my neck of the woods is a direct comparisan to the frustration some others here feel towards your been there, done that, know it all attitude when it comes to their area, animals and situations.
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Post by shagnasty on Nov 15, 2006 10:13:07 GMT -6
be nice to not get deleted all the time, what happened to telling the truth, i guess my posts hurts too many feelings.
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Post by Jeffrey on Nov 15, 2006 10:23:00 GMT -6
I know here in Maine we don't have crp land, if you find a field in central Maine bigger than 20 acres you have a huge one. That said, before the coyotes, trappers caught reds and for up here a fare amount of them, now we catch mostly yotes, why I don't know. On the other hand further north in the large tracks of paper land the fox seam to be faring better, why? I saw a picture about five years old of an old trapper from up north and his catch was almost 50-50, which totally surprised me, any thoughts?
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Post by z on Nov 15, 2006 10:47:45 GMT -6
Would Black bear molest a fox den? How about a coyote den? How about ANY den? Black bear #'s have gone through the freakin' roof in my parts and seem to have DEC looking in their direction at fawn mortailty. What does this have to do with k9 populations? Read between the lines...... Funny no ones brought that up! You did know about the bear problems in some locales of the NE right Bob? Of course you did, You just haven't mentioned it, BUT I bet you will now!
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 10:52:19 GMT -6
jeffry, 50/50, but still low numbers of each. so sparse coyotes allows sparce fox. many coyotes allows no fox. psb for example, big deal if he catches a coyote, I mean a single one! but 1,000 fox, yep. well, it`s like I guess some think the glove didn`t fit o.j. , but like who else did it? serious, who? same way with the fox and the coyotes. lots of coyotes, no fox. no coyotes, fox. the glove fits perfect. t mans mixed fox /coyote catches are too small to be statistically significant. no insult at all to you tman, but 20-30 fox over a 2-4 week fulltime effort isn`t squat. you havn`t got them in decent numbers either, you have a few, 20-30 is a few. like a 20-30 rats on a 50 mile wide marsh, dang few! md, I think your attitude you know my knowledge level on fox is off. I believe I have you trumped on every measurement possible. it`s nothing to me, but you are the one pushing the envelope. tman, just to prove to you I`m not dissing you, say you lived where phil brown lives, what would your 20-30 fox catch look like then? what would your coyote catch be there? your fox catch? a minimum of several hundreds of fox, probably not a single coyote. so would we then deduce you weren`t chit for a coyote trapper? or that phil isn`t? of course not, you can`t catch what isn`t there. just for gfggles, so you reckon the red fox ran all the coyotes out of that country ;D
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Post by ohiyotee on Nov 15, 2006 12:40:07 GMT -6
To come to a logical conclusion all one has to do is ask ones self a couple of simple ? 's Which is the more successful predator, coyote or red fox. Which of the 2 is more adaptable. Which of the 2's range has expanded emensly . If you answer these ?'s. you can then conclude that the coyote is in some way responsible for some of the decline everywhere. Lets face it they are competitors in the game of survival and i think the yotes will win. greg
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2006 13:04:56 GMT -6
we have no bears in indiana. and no fox ( relatively speaking- there are a few towny fox). but we do have plenty of coyotes. pre coyote days ( when there were no coyotes here) we had no bears either, but we had hundreds of thousands of red fox. my conclusion, bears are a non entity , at least a non entity of measurable factor.
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