it always comes back to coyotes...................

[Deleted]

I used the test holes and how they look after being worked as an example of how a coyote digs and what a "digging" looks like when they're finished.

[trappnman]

I take a few handfuls of fresh dirt, and broadcast it over the set- plus the "duff ring" is scattered-

and what makes it different- is coyote scent all over.

----------------------

back in the "great coyote debates" on thing that was mentioned quite often was this:

"I made 2 coyote sets. Coyotes were around, but it took them 5 days to work the set"

and the responding post would come back saying something like this:

"that's because you use too much lure. You are scaring the coyote with that much lure. A coyote can smell 1/2 a drop of lure, you don't need more than a few drops. You over lured, and the set needed to "cool down" before a coyote would work it."

and many would chorus in.

The way I looked at it- was it was a improper set- an unnatural looking set. Coyotes sure were spooked by it- but not because of 2 much scent. so what happens after 5 or 6 days? dew, wind, little critters soften the set, blend in the set...and at the same time, familiarity with the set occurs.

[cameron1976]

Jun 20, 2016 14:06:27 GMT -6 bobbrennan1 said:

I believe so much of coyote trapping is situational, how well a call lure / station may or may not work may have a lot of variables such as time of the year because of how plentiful food is spring vs. winter, another could be population densities, and another may be north vs south. I do believe that a good stink can put a coyote in the mood to seek out food no different than the smell of good food to humans but it has to be in the correct location.

I think you are right about the situational part. Obviously a good food smell should appeal to an opportunistic predator like a coyote when hungry, but certain food smells may trigger them when relatively full as well. Lets use people for an example. Let's say you walking  through a busy marketplace section of a major city. You may be full from a recently eaten meal, but suddenly  you encounter a very appealing odor drifting out of an open air food stand. You probably won't go purchase food because you are still full from your last meal, but chances are you will take a moment and check out where the smell is coming from and what it is. I think coyotes/fox are similar. He may not be totally hungry, but a good smell can at least stop him and cause him to investigate a set. That being said, remember every person is a bit different in what they like and don't like. I would assume coyotes are no different. Certain foods may cause a stronger reaction in some coyotes than others. This is probably why a lure made of multiple ingredients generally does well. Different smells to cover different angles.

[trappnman]

and you have hit on exactly why I like multiple lures, and using a larger amount than most.

esp if you aren't exactly where you should be (not at a stall out point). While I certainly believe that a coyote can smell a very small amount of lure/bait...... the point isn't to have him aware of it only, but to have him investigate it as well.

I want my set to be like the new store on the corner- you aren't sure what it is, but you want to check it out at least once.
--------------------------------------

I think the whole secret to any trapping, is making sets that will take the majority of animals, the majority of the time. We aren't going to get them all, so might as well leave the "hard ones".

[redsnow]

Above you were talking about Johnny Thorpe's "minnow/sock" set, I watched him give a demo about that one time. I might be mistaken?, but I think Johnny said they were just dried, and maybe salted minnows. I guess you could let them go to a certain point of stinky, then salt the heck out of them.

I forget how high off of the ground he recommended, 4 feet, shoulder high? More or less, you've got a visual, smell, plus flies can't get to them. It was just a white tube sock, and a hand full of minnows. Well as I remember, that was one of his bobcat sets. If it'd rain you'd get drippings.

[jsevering]

you would have to ask someone like ed dakin or dale furman, who trapped with him awhile, about the reason for the different presentations... im guessing if he ever wanted to make his thoughts absolutely clear to anyone on it... they would be the ones ... jim

[trappnman]

he probably did both as the mood prevailed or what he had on hand.

but to TCs point- was there any purpose, beyond a call?

[redsnow]

Well, for folks trapping in states where it's illegal to use any type of exposed bait, that's one reason. The bait is there, but it's not visible.

As well as I remember, that was a set that he made for bobcats. Don't remember, Johnny and Andy Stoe had a demo together. I forget where, probably an NTA convention?

I've heard that visuals are more important than first thought, as far as canines.

[jsevering]

he probably did both as the mood prevailed or what he had on hand.
.....................................................................................

thanks steve... but i don't need no help.... i knew john good enough to have some decent conversations with him... him and my partner ed go back to the early seventies and another close mutual friend and mentor scott mayer before he passed, were close friends and trapped in vermont together ... mostly for beaver... if redsnow wants to believe the only thing john hung a sock for was a bobcat set... no skin off my back

john had a saying, he repeated more than once, in conversation... i may of taught so and so a lot of what i know... but i didn't teach him all of it.... i'll leave it there...jim

[braveheart]

I don't see much digging of a set not even in Ga. and it was warm about 40 degree's maybe once 32.Had a few coyotes come from behind the set once in a great while.But usually in a few days something was spinning on the return trip.And I too like the multi luring may it be a dirt hole or a flat set.I want to have all my attractants working to keep the animal milling around the set.

[Deleted]

Jun 22, 2016 3:33:20 GMT -6 braveheart said:

I don't see much digging of a set not even in Ga. and it was warm about 40 degree's maybe once 32.Had a few coyotes come from behind the set once in a great while.But usually in a few days something was spinning on the return trip.And I too like the multi luring may it be a dirt hole or a flat set.I want to have all my attractants working to keep the animal milling around the set.

I don't think my previous comment and questions were understood.  I DO NOT get digging either because there will be a coyote in the trap, though about 5% or less of the time I'll get scratching at the down-wind hole of a walk-thru.  I was using the analogy of what I see at my testings to compare what folks use for a dirt hole set and since there is no trap, it is very interesting to observe how a coyote approaches the scent and how they work the scent with ONLY a simple hole in the ground.  How basic can a trapper get then just a hole, anything else he does is strictly for visual attraction and guiding.  You can not know how a coyote works a set with a trap in it!!!  In addition, I was pointing out the differences between what is suppose to be a dirt hole set and what a coyote worked set actually looks like!

I've observed coyote, dug test holes for years, maybe close to 100 tests and I can honestly say that ALL of them are/were almost identical AND the coyotes approach was as well!  Not only that but how repeat workings appeared which is in my opinion extremely important because that in itself shows how a coyote works another coyote's diggings!

[trappnman]

personally, I don't care what anyone, anywhere hung in a tree and whether it was a sock, or a can or sardines or ground up snails.

the only reason I even mentioned it- is TC insisting it wasn't as a call.

I don't know a lot about Johnny- but he wasn't known for his large coyote catches, was he? maybe he was- in any case, his methods aren't something I'm going to emulate.

and that's no disrespect to the man as an overall trapper and woodsman. But I know what works in the farmlands I trap on, by sheer passage of time.
======================

with a small sample- old sets I revisit during spring and summer gopher trapping- and even with that small sample, I've seen multiple times holes blown out from all sides, down to the bottom of the lure hole. I can't say that's normal, or even all done by coyotes.

I get coyotes digging out trapped gophers fairly often. Mostly they did where the hole is- its open, and easiest I'd guess. but its also common, for them to dig opposite the hole- and that's because of the trap, and the trap is blocking the hole- so since its something they want, they dig where they need to dig. This ties in with old sets blown out to the bottom of the hole- they dig in easy digging- if they run into a rock or hard stuff, they move around the hole.

What would happen, if you filled a test hole, with edible bait? packed it in.

Not only that but how repeat workings appeared which is in my opinion extremely important because that in itself shows how a coyote works another coyote's diggings!

but is a dirthole supposed to imitate another coyotes digging per se?

sure, glands and urine.....but that just shows a coyote was there.

coyotes are canines. its natural for them to stick their nose into a hole that has good smells coming out of it. Whats unnatural is our smell all over the set- warning flags come out. A stinky piece of steel with human odor under it- more flags.

so he is interested, but his warning flags make him nervous-

and what does a nervous canine (coyote )do?

he comes at it from the side, from behind- from areas he feels is are less suspicious perhaps?

the only way we can tell how a coyote works a set, is if we didn't get him. and frozen traps sure give one that opportunity.

I know two things that jumped out to me in frozen, or mud or snow- 1) don't make the set so he can satisfy his nose without moving his feet & 2)if they can work it from the back, they will.

so for me, large patterns, bigger backings etc are not to get the coyote aware of the set per se, but to get him to work the set with less hesitation, or at all.

Natural? maybe, maybe not. Badger dens often have dirt on all sides (less behind hole but some)but certainly have patterns that are arms length and more.

[Deleted]

but is a dirt hole supposed to imitate another coyotes digging per se?

Yes, that was my question as well OR is it just a place to put the scent?  

the only way we can tell how a coyote works a set, is if we didn't get him. and frozen traps sure give one that opportunity.

That is the bonus of testing lures and baits, you can see not only what or how they work the scent but you can also with a good scent, see how they rework the previous coyote's diggings.  Also, there's no suspicion caused by visuals, there's just a hole with a tiny/small bit of dirt.  I get no up-wind digging which would be likened to digging from the backside even WITHOUT a backing which I never use during testing, I want a 360 degree view of sign and I don't want anything at the test hole that would force or cause the coyote to do anything unnatural or cause suspicion.

So, back to how a coyote works a test hole previously dug out by another coyote.  The 2nd coyote will seldom dig inline with the 1st, they will almost always work the test and the previous digging from an angle, many times, close enough to the 1st diggings that the two will blend into one wide, digging.

[Deleted]

Since there have been no further comments about what a dirt hole set is suppose to mimic, if anything, here's how I look at it in a pretty simplistic form.  The hole is just a scent depository just like a couple of pipes sticking up above ground and then there are the "grab & die" sticks, etc.  Anything else that is done after the scent is placed is not necessarily meant to mimic another coyotes digging but rather any fresh dirt, regardless of it's structure and placement at the hole, is for guiding purposes therefore not related to another animal's digging and as a visual attraction.

[trappnman]

I understand what you are saying Seldom.

first of all, I am not trying to mimic a hole that a coyote dug. Same way I never subscribed to a fox set not having urine, because a "fox doesn't piss on his food" simply because I wasn't trying to imitate such.

Holes in the ground are attractive to predators. Little holes, medium holes, big holes. and I don't think its just on the lookout for food (although IMO that's a large part of it certainly)but its also curiosity- hmn..a new hole...what the heck??? type of thing.

I don't believe the coyote is thinking- another coyote dug this, or this is a rabbit hole, or this hole means nothing- until he investigates it. And I don't believe the size of the hole matters. And insofar as the coyote investigating the set, I don't think pattern matters either.

but the goal is to get the first coyote that comes by, and the next and the next.

And I've learn that at a set, with all that is there, that while a coyote shows no hesitation in working the hole, he will have certain behaviors if it looks suspicious- back to the "here forever, or a bomb went off"....your test holes were "there forever".

so if one commits to dirtholes, then you have taken away that "there forever look" of flat sets, and the changes you make, must be natural.

small patterns on a big hole- natural or not?
small pattern a different color than the surrounding dirt- natural or unnatural?
hard dirt then a small patch of soft BEFORE the hole- natural or unnatural and if natural...then that's food.
sharp edges from dug and scattered dirt- natural or not?

so to compensate- plus add a visual- I believe large, extended patterns both guide, attract, and alleviate neophobic behaviors. and ad in multiple scents to ring multiple bells. People forget how 1 tracked coyotes often are.




let me digress a bit........

one thing the coyote study taught me, is that very often, coyotes will spend hours in a very small area at times- I had one time the tech called me, said I had a collared one in a trap- it was at the trap all night and never moved away. cool.....when I got there- trap untouched. So that coyote spent hours, not moving enough to change locator, right by the trap. How many times did that coyote see the trap, walk by the trap, etc? many, many times throughout the night.

sometimes a coyote walks up and there he is- no muss, no fuss- but other times- how long was he there, before he finally committed?

Badgers are common here- and for sure they blow out holes, and lots of them. certainly fresh diggings, and fresh dens, have lots and lots of dirt, and in ridges (at the dens). While I'm not attempting to duplicate such (but boy oh boy is a badger remake a killer coyote set), it's not to far a stretch to see the resemblance.

I'm in fields with old badger workings- i'll take a camera today- on a farm with some good visuals as well

so while my sets aren't made as any more of an imitation beyond "something dug this come see come see!" they could be.

does that make sense?

[redsnow]

Not to drag this thread off track, but I'll add to my comments above. I'd guess Johnny Thorpe was like most trappers, he'd make a set and hope to catch critters. Might be a coon tonight, bobcat tomorrow and a skunk the next day. Take them as they come along! I met Johnny once or twice, but I didn't know him. Well as I remember, that demo was "advertised" as a bobcat demo. Long time ago!

It's just like in this area, I'll go set up a line, I can't tell you what's going to be here or there tomorrow. I might have a pretty good idea, but I don't know for sure, until I get there.

[blackhammer]

Jun 23, 2016 7:23:33 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I understand what you are saying Seldom.

first of all, I am not trying to mimic a hole that a coyote dug. Same way I never subscribed to a fox set not having urine, because a "fox doesn't piss on his food" simply because I wasn't trying to imitate such.

Holes in the ground are attractive to predators. Little holes, medium holes, big holes. and I don't think its just on the lookout for food (although IMO that's a large part of it certainly)but its also curiosity- hmn..a new hole...what the heck??? type of thing.

I don't believe the coyote is thinking- another coyote dug this, or this is a rabbit hole, or this hole means nothing- until he investigates it. And I don't believe the size of the hole matters. And insofar as the coyote investigating the set, I don't think pattern matters either.

but the goal is to get the first coyote that comes by, and the next and the next.

And I've learn that at a set, with all that is there, that while a coyote shows no hesitation in working the hole, he will have certain behaviors if it looks suspicious- back to the "here forever, or a bomb went off"....your test holes were "there forever".

so if one commits to dirtholes, then you have taken away that "there forever look" of flat sets, and the changes you make, must be natural.

small patterns on a big hole- natural or not?
small pattern a different color than the surrounding dirt- natural or unnatural?
hard dirt then a small patch of soft BEFORE the hole- natural or unnatural and if natural...then that's food.
sharp edges from dug and scattered dirt- natural or not?

so to compensate- plus add a visual- I believe large, extended patterns both guide, attract, and alleviate neophobic behaviors. and ad in multiple scents to ring multiple bells. People forget how 1 tracked coyotes often are.




let me digress a bit........

one thing the coyote study taught me, is that very often, coyotes will spend hours in a very small area at times- I had one time the tech called me, said I had a collared one in a trap- it was at the trap all night and never moved away. cool.....when I got there- trap untouched. So that coyote spent hours, not moving enough to change locator, right by the trap. How many times did that coyote see the trap, walk by the trap, etc? many, many times throughout the night.

sometimes a coyote walks up and there he is- no muss, no fuss- but other times- how long was he there, before he finally committed?

Badgers are common here- and for sure they blow out holes, and lots of them. certainly fresh diggings, and fresh dens, have lots and lots of dirt, and in ridges (at the dens). While I'm not attempting to duplicate such (but boy oh boy is a badger remake a killer coyote set), it's not to far a stretch to see the resemblance.

I'm in fields with old badger workings- i'll take a camera today- on a farm with some good visuals as well

so while my sets aren't made as any more of an imitation beyond "something dug this come see come see!" they could be.

does that make sense?

Good post!

[Wright Brothers]

The guy that first told me of hanging a bag of stink was born in 1900. I doubt he knew of JT. Funny how ideas get reinvented.

That version was to hang it above a small creek, real small.
The idea was to draw from places you could not go to. This area has many rolling hills, small drainages, and small and large parcels of private property.

I should try it just for the Old Boys sake.

[trappnman]

nothing new WB- just things being rediscovered

took some videos yesterday. click the small ones for video- I guess, looking at these badger holes, it does seem like I'm imitating them, and perhaps subconsciously I am

here is a farm I started trapping

here is a sort of typical coyote eating a gopher-  if they cannot get trap out, they dig out the hole entirely, or come in from the back

typical badger after a gopher diggings.

here is the spot over the hill- dry pond to right. first year here last year, got 4.

[trappnman]

the picture is the set location you couldn't see from the hill in the first video