it always comes back to coyotes...................

[trappnman]

So my point of contention remains in this, why would a group of coyotes want to check out just a call lure from a longer distance if the pay off had little else to offer?p/b]

how do they know there isn't more to be offered? your logic makes all lure use meaningless.

so a can hung from a tree "makes sense" to you- but a lure doesn't?

good golly miss molly!

THAt makes no sense to me

[northof50]

Interesting read
Seeing that I have to deal with white manure all the time
You get to see more
You forget that sometimes the lure gets a response of: I like that purty smell and the rubbing/ rolling response.
I made the mistake of putting 4 oz of urine in with fish oil and at -10 it all is stiff but still squirts as marten lure at the sites. Dang if I did not have totes going 50 yards off skidoo trails, but they never poke their noses into boxes

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman wow is all I can say..................

I' m out.

[trappnman]

wow?

so a can hung from a tree "makes sense" to you- but a lure doesn't?

don't know what asking you, after you said a can of sardines hanging in a tree makes sense, but a can with lure doesn't.

I see no logic in that- if sardines in a can are effective and make sense- then why not a quantity of lure?

[trappincoyotes39]

You missed it all the way, the can was placed for very other reason than the one you state is a benefit..............

Hang it high if you wish..............

[trappnman]

what reason is that? what reason do you think a can of sardines was hung in a tree?

the very fact it was hung out of reach of coon, means it was a minimum of 4' high/4'. 6' doesn't really matter

[bobbrennan1]

What I saw was that he hung them 8 to 10 feet high

[jsevering]

bluecoons said...

When johnny showed me the minnow cans, he emphasized that they needed to be hung up high where the sun would hit the can and keep them "working". Also he wanted a certain size of branch to hang them from that would not the support the weight of a coon. He didn't want a critter walking off with his can. Bears, he said still took quite a few. And if I'm not mistaken, he poked some pin holes in the can because he wanted them to drip. So I'm not so sure that the height of the smell was what he was concerned with, as much as keeping that smell at the location. Oh, and as I recall, they were definently beer cans, not soda cans!
.........................................................................................................................................................

initial call and then an actual source reaction... he helped set the mood at the location... he did the same thing with old socks instead of pin holes in a can also... jim

[trappnman]

been thinking about scent, how it carries almost all my life. To begin with it was hounds- breeding and competing and hunting with hounds. mainly beagles, which allowed me to watch them trail bunnies for literally 1,000s of hours. In all seasons, in all conditions.

I once had a beagle trail a rabbit down the middle of a tarred parking lot- track by track step by step. I also watched this same beagle wind someone out in a field a couple 100 yards away- nose in air, almost a trot- turned went a bit more and down went his nose and he started running something (deer or fox I'd guess)

The ability of a canines nose cannot be nor should not be underestimated.

Studies show that coyote finds more prey through ears and eyes first- and some take that, I guess, to mean he has a substandard nose. But it should be meant to be a credit to his other sense, but not to the detriment of his nose.

---------------------

So lets go back to the idea of scents used for coyotes. Lets take it as a given, that one can catch coyotes w/o any bait and lure- blind trail sets, blind hole sets. But lets also accept as a given, that lures/scents ARE far more productive.

No good coyote man can or should argue about that-

so why do we use lures and baits?

What is the true purpose?

What are we gaining, by adding them to sets?

--------

The obvious answer, at least obvious to me- is that by adding lures and baits to a set we increase it's "noticability". We believe, that by adding odor to a hole, or under a rock, or even gland/urine on the infamous post set. That we increase the chances of a coyote actually going to the set, and trying to put his nose down that hole, to "see" what is there.

If the above it true- and it is- then you have to come to the conclusion that its the air borne particles coming out of that hole, or under that rock- the scent trail in the air if you will- that is causing the coyote to be drawn to further investigate the odor. The old pie on the windowsill that pulls in Dennis the Menace situation.

A scent trail, or odor, is pulling him to that set.

so- lets go here..... does that scent odor only come into play if the coyote actually sees the hole, or rock? Does he need visual confirmation to allow him to work the scent trail?

I think anyone with any experience would agree that it does not.

>>>>>> so its a pretty standard agreement that coyotes are attracted to odors, that odors will induce a coyote to investigate something, and that he doesn't need a visual to do so.

----------

Anyone that has put anything into the wind knows this, or works in windy conditions - the wind currents are stronger above ground level-and a feather placed a foot off the ground and released, won't fly as far as one held above your head and released. I could give example after example- but it all comes down to science and wind.

so knowing the above is true- and it is- and knowing that odors attract canines w/o a needed visual...then to e, it is simply common sense to get your draw, out as far as possible, whatever that is.

because if a scent is going to draw at 1'....or 5'....or 10'..... or 50'...then it damn sure going to do the same at the extreme ranges, and that's one advantage of a quantity of lures and baits come in...that odor trail isn't going to be coming, fleetingly on the wind from a couple of drops, minimum bait, etc.

but make that a goodly amount...and the trail is larger, and is somewhat consistent.

---------------------

I'll be honest- I've read and reread the statements about the can of sardines, and TC saying oh yes, that made sense to him because the cans weren't hung "with my purpose in mind" of having a lure high act as a draw. Again I'll ask TC to explain what he thinks the purpose of the cans would be, if not a call ?

8-10 feet

I don't know if this was meant that way or not- but it sums it up exactly from the point of view I am talking about.

initial call and then an actual source reaction

---------------

holes in can were to let odor out- same thing as taking a film can, adding some lure and cotton, punch holes in it and hang in tree.

dripping on the ground would do more to attract bears than anything else he could do. and why would he want to give them a place to satisfy their curiosity by having all the juice on the ground?

[jsevering]

its not a can of sardines it was working minnows/fish ... there is a difference in what they produce...jim

[trappnman]

a difference in "what" they produce- how so?

[jsevering]

a can of sardines is more or less preserved with its own packaged drippings/ olive oils and such... that would leak out of pin holes put in a "sardine can"... working fish and minnows are just that and produce something different in the decomposition process... the scent would carry from the can or sock above and also from the ground level drippings... jim

[trappnman]

oh, you meant how it works

yes

[bobbrennan1]

I believe so much of coyote trapping is situational, how well a call lure / station may or may not work may have a lot of variables such as time of the year because of how plentiful food is spring vs. winter, another could be population densities, and another may be north vs south. I do believe that a good stink can put a coyote in the mood to seek out food no different than the smell of good food to humans but it has to be in the correct location.

[trappnman]

I wish I knew more about this- I have trapped a few weeks in KS, and the same on WY and a tad in MT- but almost all of my coyote trapping has been here in the farmlands.


but I was thinking over this very topic today- that of " a coyote is a coyote is a coyote"

and it was one of the cornerstones of WileyE's debate concerning coyotes east and west and north or south.

that a coyote was indeed a coyote, that the innate behaviors were the same. I tend to agree with this.

but I also very much agree with bob- reactions are situational.

-------------

When I read that coyotes in certain areas don't respond to certain lures- or that skunk lures don't work in summer- it reminds me how foolish one can be- I can remember debating with bob W decades ago on how MY coyotes didn't respond well to dirtholes- and that I did far better in flat/walkthrough type sets, or deep stepdowns. That my coyotes just didn't work dirtholes (and this was in an unexploited population for heavens sakes!).

now I understand it was MY dirtholes, not the coyotes behaviors. Well yes, the coyotes behaviors, but caused by my set construction. Its why I cringe when I see pie plate patterns and everyone saying Great coyote set!

It makes me wonder- is it the skunk lure- or is it the mechanics? Do other sets work better than a faulty set...whereas the same set made a different way- might prove to be the superior one.

Reminds me of gopher traps- I've loved hated death clutches (like them now) went from hating cinches, to now preferred kill trap, loved Quick Sets- took them out of truck this year.

when I first trapped spring coyotes, I was told skunk wouldn't work- when I first trapped july/august coyotes, I was told too hot for skunk lures-

30 below or 90 above- if I had one lure it would be skunk based one- some type of LDC with a twist.

getting to be a real good thread- good to see some new views jumping in-

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2016 16:33:32 GMT -6 trappnman said:

getting to be a real good thread- good to see some new views jumping in-

Absolutely!  It's a good one for sure!

[braveheart]

When giving trapping lessons to my students.I always tell them a good arm length to blend in pattern in all directions with NO edges.


www.kegcreekbaits-lures.com

[Deleted]

Marty's post has sort of brought us back to Steve's original thread-starter about dirt holes so I have a couple of questions regarding dirt holes 

What is a dirt hole set suppose to mimic or imitate where dirt is thrown out an arm's length?  Marty isn't the only one who has mentioned this, Steve I believe has as well as 1080.  I'm serious when I say this, I have not seen where a coyote or fox has ever thrown dirt around a digging an arm's length away EXCEPT straight back, then it could be 5'.

Also, this business of packing the chit out of the pattern so supposedly the coyote "feels" safe when entering the pattern because it also supposedly, doesn't want or like to step in soft dirt?  In order for an animal to dig it has to step in loose/soft dirt so why it is supposedly so unnatural or scary?

These are questions that always come to mind when I see my test plots that are nothing more then a simple, drilled hole.  The coyotes and fox don't dig around the hole throwing dirt in an arc, nor are they afraid to step in the nice soft, loose dirt that's been removed.  So, where have these two mindsets come from, what observations have been made that differ from mine when it's a fact, neither is replicate of a canine diggings?

[trappnman]

here are my thoughts-

a simple test hole doesn't have a pattern, nor as trap buried.

so its undisturbed ground. When I trapped in MT, I found something interesting. I had zero digging, zero working of the set sideways etc (well, I can say that in that I missed no coyotes digging at side, some caught ones sure could have). Talking to Dave Hastings, he said his thought was that I was trapping 100% in sage country sand- everything looked the same, no visible pattern, hard everywhere and even "hard" over the trap.

contrast that to here- everything is hard, except the pattern. I believe an extreme ground change, or perhaps pattern change is going to do a couple of things.

One is, and its something I have proven is a given, after multiple years over multiple decades is that if a pattern is small and obvious- a coyote is going to, if at all possible, avoid it. Black dirt, brown pattern; soft dirt, hard dirt; sand. loam. all show incredible avoidance of the pattern. So that is one reason to have lots of dirt tossed back- it eliminates the pattern from standing out, and also through use of guides such as where I toss the chunks of sod, big clods, small piles that allows me to direct the coyote.

Another is soft dirt, in an environment of hard dirt- means its fresh, and means some little tidbit could be there- after all, something sure smells good! One of the things I stress in my coon demos is that in my mind, the #1 cause of coon digging and flipping traps- is soft dirt. I feel the same on coyotes. fresh, soft dirt on the side of a gopher mound for example- good chance salamander there- they know.

One could pack pattern down hard, but easier, and accomplishes more, to make the general large area around set soft.

[jsevering]

god gave us all our own artistic license, guess its how you see fit to use it with whats presented... here is a random thought after the first catch, every set that produces unless its on a drag has an edge to a degree, may not be viable but its there... what makes that any different from an edge you may want to put to use... jim