it always comes back to coyotes...................

[Deleted]

Would you wonder if those coyote are "conditioned" to work the badger diggings in an area that both hunt gophers quite extensively?

[bobbrennan1]

It sounds like you have a good population some where close by. It should be easy pickings come fall.

[trappnman]

yes, I have no doubt that is true Seldom- at the same time, wouldn't the same apply to woodchucks, etc?

[Deleted]

Jul 5, 2016 9:40:02 GMT -6 trappnman said:

yes, I have no doubt that is true Seldom- at the same time, wouldn't the same apply to woodchucks, etc?

It doesn't seem too but I can't say that I've observed enough fresh woodchuck diggings to really say.  In the spring they're in the ditches and as soon as the beans start coming up they move into the fields and I'm not walking in the beans, just full of them! 

Back to the badger diggings-
I remember reading a Mark June post some time back about this very subject.  The majority of trappers responding said that in their experience badger diggings or badger catch circles were "hot" coyote set locations.  June stated that in Michigan this was exactly the opposite, whereas in the other States he's trapped, it was a true statement!!

[braveheart]

Seldom
That is how the badger are here in the ditches when farmers are in the field and back out when it settles down.

[Deleted]

The only badger I ever killed I gave to the property owner to mount and it was on the last day of season.  It was a beautiful female and weighed 31 lbs 14oz at the taxidermist.  Frigin badger's smell gags me badly to the point that when I go to release one I have to stop and get a breath of fresh air.  The excavation she made was so huge that the property owner used his backhoe to fill it back in.  Luckily, she was wrapped up on some deep tree roots.

[trappnman]

well, I'll consider the source on what you said Seldom-

things like backs a yote can't see over, kneeling cloths, etc give me pause.

but let say its true- why would it be so?

I'll have to say, in the 4 states I've trapped, badgers/ground squirrels/gophers/praire dogs were always around- if not exact area, close by.

---------------

so in MI, badgers are rare- somewhat rare in WI, but I know big hole sets work very well there.

so why wouldn't badger diggings, when they occur, be not attractive to coyotes? after all, unless a true transient they grew up together.

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2016 19:07:02 GMT -6 trappnman said:

well, I'll consider the source on what you said Seldom-

things like backs a yote can't see over, kneeling cloths, etc give me pause.

but let say its true- why would it be so?

June's comment? 

[trappnman]

yeah................

I wonder about such stuff. I think it like a jig fisherman, who tried spinners once, didn't catch anything, went back to jigs and is convinced, that spinners don't work for him.

Before I went full time trapping, I did a ton of stream trout fishing. We are blessed with 100s of good and excellent trout streams for "native" browns and brookies, and stocked rainbows. My favorite form of stream trout fishing is to use a 1/2 inch piece of worm treaded on a hook, on 4lb line with an ultralight, fished as a streamer.

when I wanted to learn rapalas, or dry flies, or whatever- I fished many, many days and miles of stream, with that being the only tool in my tackle box so to speak.

I couldn't give up, or go back to the tried and true.

---------------------

I see that happening so much in trapping, and life in general.

[cameron1976]

I will admit I am that way Steve. As I posted on one of these threads, might have been this one, I will often find something that works (dirtholes for canines, certain flies for trout, etc.) and come to rely on that set, lure etc.

I do try and force myself to try new things each year though. I always find myself playing around with a new lure, set, or whatever. The problem lies with my patience. For example when fly fishing I only give the new fly so long before I cut it off and try something else. Same with trapping lures or whatever. I know...I know I just need a bit more patience. Lol.

You are right, SE MN has some dandy trout streams!

[trappnman]

I know without a doubt, its hard to change, or try something new, when you have a limited amount of time ie a often short trapping season.

and I'm as bad as anyone- I try something that works, and its very hard to get me to change.

only when an obvious improvement can be seen, or a problem needs to be corrected.

for example stakes vs disposables. I went with stakes for years- and have really no problem with them except 1- it gets to be a lot of rebar to haul around, take care of, etc- and so, finally, reluctantly, went to cable stakes.

its harder to change methods.

here is where my mind always goes- and its the concept behind the beginning of this thread. And that is that HOW many coyotes, that are "aware" of your set, do you catch? and the reason I ponder on it so much- is that if numbers are the goal, then the "easiest" way to increase them, is to increase the % of coyotes that are aware, that are caught.

I DO know that 1 piece of the puzzle is the location- I accept it as an absolute given, that your % of catches goes up significantly if set on a stall out spot, and esp so with a multiple group stall out spot.

and I DO know that a fair amount of lure, and multiple lures, produce far better that small drops, and singleton lures.

and I BELIEVE, that a big hole set, catches the highest %, night after night, than other sets.

what I don't know is- is more traps per location the answer? In the obvious way yes (can't catch 3 with 2 traps)- but do say 5,6 traps-actually produce more than 3 traps (and lets assume always a free trap)? Don't know.

what I don't know- is there a "silver bullet set", a set constructed with X being paramount ot success.

I think I'm very close, but also think I'm missing that "X".

comment please

[Aaron.F]

Jul 8, 2016 6:53:47 GMT -6 trappnman said:

what I don't know is- is more traps per location the answer? In the obvious way yes (can't catch 3 with 2 traps)- but do say 5,6 traps-actually produce more than 3 traps (and lets assume always a free trap)? Don't know.

what I don't know- is there a "silver bullet set", a set constructed with X being paramount ot success.

I think I'm very close, but also think I'm missing that "X".

comment please

I will comment on those issues identified above in the quote, as I basically agree with your other statements, as it pertains to my limited experience on my trapline.

I think the law of diminishing returns kicks in at some point, especially with a 24 hour check. Only so many animals can come through the area in a small amount of time. I believe in gang setting for sure, but in groups of 2 or 3. Part of this may be due to my less than stellar results in picking the "spot" and feel that it's better to spread my traps out. I also am dealing in an area that is like a pumpkin patch with hunters from October through December.

I do not believe in a silver bullet set. Again maybe because of my limited experience, but coyotes are individuals and do things that don't always make sense, however if you give them multiple options you have a better chance. Also around here you never know how the neighbors are trapping and you may need to show them something different. I take notes when guys like JC Conner in his videos talk about changing up sets. I also want every coyote, I hate seeing tracks pass by my sets, I want them all.

[Deleted]

First, let me say that Aaron described his and my general trapping territories and conditions very well.

Concerning the "silver bullet set", I believe there is a set that can be made that will take the vast majority of coyotes that respond to the stimuli presented at the set if the following formula is adhered to as 1080 stated-

"Things that when applied to trapping..IE.approach to objects, angle of approach to stimuli,wind,etc,etc are FAR MORE useful in many regards to the actual setting.
Where to set, what is pertinent to a set in regards to acceptance has been more valuable to me than much of what I have read in field study for general behavior in certain conditions across the country.

What you learn are certain things are innate and consistant.How you present a set,and WHERE is of utmost importance.

Watching that in captive coyotes confirmed behavior I always thought.It also showed me things I didn`t give thought to and was unaware of at the time.Changed my beliefs of much of the "So Called" standard practices of trapping.If I had to choose between the collared animal and what was learned at the facility on a number of occasions,Easy choice,a No brainer.You missed out"

[trappnman]

Where to set, what is pertinent to a set in regards to acceptance has been more valuable to me than much of what I have read in field study for general behavior in certain conditions across the country.


what IS pertinent?

aaron- if my goal was to take every coyote, I'd use other typs of sets-

lets look at this another way- do certain sets, invoke quicker responses than others?

if so- does it matter in the real world?

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2016 8:37:19 GMT -6 trappnman said:

Where to set, what is pertinent to a set in regards to acceptance has been more valuable to me than much of what I have read in field study for general behavior in certain conditions across the country.


what IS pertinent?

I believe "pertinent" used in this context is telling me that the set has to be so natural that it will not induce any fear whatsoever.  I relate that statement to my scent testing where there is simply a hole and the excavated dirt.  The coyotes NEVER hesitate to DIRECTLY approach the hole if interested.  There is no circling or pacing before approaching the hole.  When I setup my tests I look specifically for test areas where I can observe more then whether or not the coyote wanted to dig, not unlike snow.

[trappnman]

I truly believe, that adding steel beneath the dirt combined with my extended presence, changes so much in how the work the set.

both in Seldoms holes and those fresh badger holes we can see w/o us "being" there, nor no changes made, coyotes worked pretty much st on- although in both instances we cannot see what happened outside the sand

[redsnow]

I've got my trail cam watching a set now. Just still pictures, and not in the best location for canines, but I'd bet I'll have some anyway. (I've got the camera watching a salt lick, I just added a dab of lure, out maybe 10 feet.)

Let me ask, what in the heck is a "stall out" area?

My camera is in the woods, no way that you'd be able to track anything. Coming up on 2 weeks since I've checked it, maybe next time I'll set it to take video, if I'm getting many small critters.

[Deleted]

Jul 9, 2016 15:14:10 GMT -6 redsnow said:

Let me ask, what in the heck is a "stall out" area?

I believe this was posted some years ago by ChrisM but not sure.  Chris doesn't post very often but when he does it's profound in content!

"Lay-ups vs stall out.....Everyone has their own terminology, and obviously, coyotes will stall out at a lay up areas, but for me, lay-up areas and stall out areas are not the same thing. .
[ ]
As stated by others traveling coyotes can be difficult to attract/stop/catch ect.. However, all along a coyotes normal travels he will encounter locations where he is prone to stall out. Saddles, gates in fence lines, brushy clump in a fence line, the end of a weedy fence line, stock dams, intersection of two tracks and four corners of fences, a lone tree or clump of tall brush off the trail a bit. None of these would be very attractive as a "lay-up" area but would cetainly cause a coyte to stall out for a bit, take a pee or crap, nose around a bit etc... At this point he is much more vunerable to a set than when just scootin down your sandy trail or two track.

To me... lay-up areas are places where coyotes will spend considrable time, bed down for the day, spend a good deal of time hunting etc... Thse can take many formes depending on the region you are in. Shelterbelts, CRP, Brush/grassy draws or drainages, Corn fields (in the summer) Cut milo and wheat fields in the fall/winter. Slews, cattails, badland knobs, rough set of hills etc..

1080's third video..the grassy patch that he baited up, where he has the double. He created and/or enhanced a stall out, not a lay up IMO

Chicken or the egg? IMO, the location is the key. The location creates/triggers the mind set. Natural stall out areas tend to remain very consistent from one coyote to the next."

[trappnman]

The location creates/triggers the mind set.

Could not agree more. It seems that those that make their living with coyotes, tend to agree on this. And it's the whole concept concerning "on the spot" location setups.

[redsnow]

Ok, more or less you're just talking about a good location.

I almost always set "corners" in one way or the other. Might be a fence corner, between say pasture and a crop field. Gates in the fence line, like a road between 2 fields. Or a skidder path that hooks off the main road. Maybe a ditch, with a culvert under the 2 track. Or a road through the powerline. All of them would give you a little focal point.

I know a lot of you have seen this before too, but around here there lots of 2-tracks back in the mountains, and in the snow you'll track where a fox or bobcat comes into the road from one side, follows a tire track, for 3 or 400 yards, and then heads back into the brush. Might be the same side of the road, or on the opposite side from where it came from. I mean for no apparent reason, other than maybe a deer path. Especially bobcats.

It's just like tracking a coyote trotting across an open field, for reasons unknown. Maybe there is a deer carcass or gut pile out there someplace?

Talking about those 2-tracks back in the mountains, if I'm out and travel very far, say 3 or 4 ridges and there's nothing really special there, I'll make a couple sets anyway. I won't say they look like a bomb went off, but I'll scratch dirt and rocks across both tire tracks. Depending, I might put one between the tire tracks and another set off on one edge.

I agree there are "spots" where most critters will walk by, or are more likely to walk past, but if you're only going to be in the area for a few days, 2 weeks, I'll set the place up heavy.