FN Scent Business

[Deleted]

I totally agree about the stick business!  As I mentioned previously, I always use a butter knife BUT I had it from very good sources that the manufacturer leans heavily toward flat sets when developing his recipes.  So, I couldn't reach the bottom of the augered holes where with my normal 1", straight-down hole I could just make it with my knife.  Yesterday I saw a great example of why not to use a stick.  At each test hole I threw in the stick (lure or bait) then I took a longer stick and tried to push the scented one to the bottom.  While yesterday I found a test hole of the bait and it was only dug 1/2 way down before it got my scent stick, apparently I didn't do a good job of ensuring a full depth scent.  Nevertheless, the coyote did a great job digging to it just it didn't have enough dirt to throw it 5'.

[RdFx]

never, and same thing happens with urine posts if trapper puts in place but not implanted firmly enough in ground..... (dont ask me how i learned this ;>)....) natural urine posts if possible to be used depending on the location.

[redsnow]

This was a good many years ago, but a bunch of us went to a convention in PA, near Hawbaker's shop. While in the area, I wanted to just stop and look for the heck of it. Finally found the building, it was abandoned, grass and weeds were up tall. But that building had a "smell". If it's still there, I'm sure it still has a smell today!

I'd say a man could have ripped off a board, chopped it up in little chunks and caught critters, using the lumber for lure.

One thing that I wanted to point out, there was a metal drum sitting on the porch, it had a spigot on the top. I assume that was one of his lure making barrels.

But think about this for a second, if a feller could render out 40 gallons of lure from a 55 gallon drum, 40 gallons figures out to 5,100 ounces. 30 gallons would be 3,800 ounces. What do you reckon, at a dollar per ounce? $2 per ounce?

I don't want anyone to think I'm badmouthing anyone, I'm not! Just saying there is a good bit of money involved. If a man can make money, and earn a living, more power to him!

It's just like folks that have books and videos and DVD's. I might come out with a book and a 2 hour DVD, something like "Longlining Possum's". Go into ideal locations, favorite lures, favorite traps, trap adjustment, etc.

Years ago, Johnny Thorpe said: "Trappers will buy anything." It's true!

[trappnman]

guessing the drum is for urine?

[RdFx]

yep i bet urine also, easy way to fill urine bottles.... I remember a fellow fm Mn , forgot his name but he had a bumper sticker that said ( If Dolly Parton was a trapper she would be flat busted). The fellow always had 55 gallon barrels of urine with him at rondys and he always had good fox urine....anybody remember the fellows name?

[bobbrennan1]

Might be the same guy who sold to hawbakers?

[redsnow]

Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe not. But think about this for a second, how much does a full page ad, on the back page of the magazine cost, per issue?

Again, I don't want anyone to think that I have a problem with someone selling stuff, and making an honest living. I don't! That's what I do for a living too.

But think, if a few trappers buy this and that, state to state, you're dealing with gallons of lure. A 5-gallon bucket isn't going to go very far.

I know folks that make lure, how much?, I don't know. That's their business, I've never asked. Honestly, I think some of you'd be surprised just how many 1-ounce bottles are sold on a good year.

More power to them!

[trappnman]

an interesting question is does the lure hold consistency better if made in small batches, or large batches?

does making a gal of lure, with measurements small and precise, have a batch come out different than if one used a 55 gal drum and put ingredients in in large amounts?

I'd make a bet, that on 90% of all lures, if 100 bottle were sold, it would be a good year. Obvious exceptions to that of course.

one thing I note, is that it seems like the more fur someone traps, the less the rely on store bought lures. For example- try to sell beaver lure to someone that traps a couple hundred beaver- or traps 500 rats, etc. Most of those people, IMO, tend to have a lure or two they make, and that's their go to lure. Same with coon.

Some, like me are exceptions- I hate making lures, and haven't made my own for decades, or even dabbled in it. I don't want the bother, or the experimentation. Stef once told me that when someone asked him- how do you get a good lure- he replyed "by dumping lots of lure down the drain".

And I suspect that's true of most lure makers.

[redsnow]

Not sure? I guess it'd be about the same as making a pot of chili. Do you want 3 pounds of hamburger or do you need 6 pounds? Two big onions or 4 big onions? One quart of skunk juice, or 2?

But you know how some lures will separate, what's good? The stuff on top or the stuff on the bottom? I always shake my lures, and poke my lure holder to the bottom of the bottle.

Next time you're out at a convention, look at the different lures. The gunk on top can't be the same as the gunk on the bottom.

Remember reading the stories that Dobbin's wrote about making lure, years ago? Talking about stirring it every day, and add a pinch of this and a dab of that, trying to perfect a lure. Heck, it'll take a man 20 minutes to stir up a 5 gallon bucket of paint.

What better way to mix up a batch of lure than put it in a 55 gallon drum, lay it down and roll it across the floor every other day? I figure that gunk that settles down on the bottom, we'll sell it as "paste bait". It might be the best?

[trappnman]

Do you want 3 pounds of hamburger or do you need 6 pounds? Two big onions or 4 big onions? One quart of skunk juice, or 2?


yet- in mixing ink, I can get the exact color when mixing in small quantities (grams worth) far easier vs when it needs 2 lbs

and look at bulk in another way- in a drum, would the inner stud have the same chemical balance as the outer (temp difference, whatever)

perhaps the variations in lures reported here- could be explained by just that?

IDK

[Deleted]

It's my assumption that when lure and/or bait recipes are formulated that nothing would be vague, but the ingredients and directions would be extremely specific.  If this assumption isn't true, why would the value of the recipe be such that hundreds or possibly thousands of dollars (I have little idea of actual recipe values) change hands when a recipe is bought?  Therein lies the rub!  Does the recipe stay the same or are shortcuts or substitutions taken by the new owner for business reasons because of the X amount of $$ he purchased the recipe for needs to be recouped and the profit margin widened.  The name stays the same just that the recipe doesn't and I feel that's totally unfair to the trapper to the point of false advertising!

We as trappers when buying a bottle of lure can only initially smell if there is a difference and what % of trappers can do that in such finite detail that they know exactly what the ingredients are and in what amounts because THAT is the only way we as trappers have any objective idea EXCEPT through use which in it's self is subjective.  Testing is not totally objective but it's a heck of alot more so then just using a lure on the line because of the variables of the line in my opinion.  And it certainly isn't commonsensical let alone cost effective to test every lure you buy every year just to check on it's supposed recipe being the same or level of potency.

I've only read where certain glands, such as mink glands lose potency and we know skunk essence does over a period of time so then their shelf-life diminishes over time.  This is common knowledge and that's why I've read that some lure makers tell customers to mix 10% new lure into the old in order to jack the potency back up..  How long or short is the shelf-life of a maker's lure or bait because shouldn't the trapper be paying for the freshest/original potency available?  

OR is it trapper beware and if you buy a lure that has lost some of it's potency it's just the trapper's tough luck because the maker sure as chit won't pull his product off the shelves.  That's what pisses this old cowboy off!  The reality of this scenario is, it's the trappers tough luck because the maker is in business to make lure and of course, make a profit.  So, I feel that in the overall scheme of things that some lure makers doesn't care if there's a loss of product quality as long as nobody bitches and trappers buy!  If someone bitches then the maker usually will react and replace it.

Let me put it this way after all my writings, I don't want to know what's in the recipe that the lure maker paid for, I want to only pay for the EXACT recipe the maker bought and tells me is that is what is in the bottle or jar I'm buying!  Pretty simple and easy to understand, nothing more, nothing less!

[Deleted]

To be fair, I have found several lure/bait makers whose products performance-wise(catch per set used ratio) and smell never varies from one year to the next and has been that way for the past 6-7 years.  During the past 10-12 years though, I have had 3 instances representing 3 lure maker's products make extremely wide swings in performance(documented catch ratios) and I could only vaguely smell a difference between the previous years bottles/jars and the new ones.  I don't spend anymore $$ on those makers products.

[redsnow]

I agree the recipe should be right on the money and exact. How can you sell: "Lure #57" if it's not identical to lure #57, from last year?

A friend of mine owned a little grocery store/meat market, over in the next county, he sold tons and tons of pork sausage. He raised his own hogs, had his own little secret recipe, and it was VERY good sausage. Ole Paul, a few years before he closed up shop, and then kicked the bucket on me, he gave me his recipe. I gave him my word, that I'd never spread it around. It's taped to the wall back in my meat area.

But I'll tell, his recipe goes down to 1 hundredth of a pound, salt, pepper, sage, etc. A good ink pen weighs 0.03 pounds, so that's pretty darned close! His mix is made for a 30# batch of fresh ground pork. If you use his mix with 29# of pork, it ain't gonna be right! If you've got 31# of meat, it ain't gonna be right. It calls for 30#, exactly, and it'll make some of the best sausage, most of you guys have never tasted.

I've used his recipe before, I'd mix up a batch for you, but I gave the man my word I'd keep it to myself. But guys it makes a good sausage! Who knows what a good coyote lure recipe would cost?

[Deleted]

Here's a short "spin-off" story of an incident where things change.  From 1971 to 1987 I used ony one fox lure and even through the boom, spanked the fox.  I must note that there were no coyotes in my territory through those years.

In 2004 while working/trapping for MSU on a Dioxin Project I was asked to trap a sample size of red, Grey, and coyote.  So, I called the lure maker of my "old Faithful" and sure enough he still made it.  I ordered and recieved the lure but one wiff instantly told me this wasn't at all the good stuff but I actually had an old partial bottle of the maker's "regular" lure and I had always used the "Special".  

I called the maker and said thatthere had to be a mislabeling because what I recieved certainly wasn't the Special.  He assured me that what he sent was the Special and that he no longer made the regular.  BS!  A person doesn't use the same lure and only that lure for all those years and not have the smell imprinted in his brain!  I used that lure along with others on the Project but I had no faith in it and I never caught a single animal with it.

As a side note, during that project when I had to search out lures to use, I found a lure made by a reknown maker/trapper that very closely smelled like the old Special of the other maker.  It performed great on the study and continues today as my top performer for all canines!  A few other lures have tied it's catch ratio but none have topped it.

[braveheart]

I can say one thing.About 5 yrs ago it was 100 degrees about every day. It was very hard to make a lure.It would go to far unless watching it closely twice a day.I have all my lures 2 yrs. old before selling and all my base ingredients at least 5yrs. old before using.Everything needs several years of freezing and thawing to break down.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2016 4:08:10 GMT -6 braveheart said:

I can say one thing.About 5 yrs ago it was 100 degrees about every day. It was very hard to make a lure.It would go to far unless watching it closely twice a day.I have all my lures 2 yrs. old before selling and all my base ingredients at least 5yrs. old before using.Everything needs several years of freezing and thawing to break down.

I know more now then before I started reading this post!  Being educated is always a good thing.

[redsnow]

I don't know squat about making lure, but I reckon it'd be about the same as a dead deer over the road bank. I go home tonight and see a skid mark in the road, forget about it. Along about Monday morning I get a whiff of something, figure it's a coon, something small. Give it a couple days, then it's obvious that it's not a small critter, up around Friday morning she's pretty ripe! Give it a couple more days and it'll start to mellow out.

I'm not sure?, would you want your bait at it's peak stinkyness? I guess you would? That would be nearly impossible to stop a batch of lure, at exactly the right time, batch after batch.

Talking about stinky stuff, a local guy lost a horse, he about halfway buried the critter, I'll tell you one thing, that thing filled that hollow with stink! It was a nasty, musty smell that lingered on and on!

[Griz]

May 3, 2016 7:09:06 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I've never understood why some claim to want a non digging reaction to a lure. To me, that means a lure that they really want- want it so much they take the time and effort to dig it out.

I've also come more and more to the thought that sticks, or lure holders etc, unless one truly digs every hole 12+" deep- its so very easy for a coyote to fish that stick or holder out of the hole- which is why we tend to smear the lure into the hole, and either take the stick (we use popsicle sticks) away, or push it deep into the backing

I also do not understand.  To dig the coyote has to come to the hole and has a high probability of getting caught before he has a chance to dig.  If the coyote digs at the hole his feet are moving all over the area of the trap.  In all of this activity he is putting his feet all over the trap area.  This gives many chances for a foot to hit the trap pan.  Is that not the whole idea?

[stickbowhntr]

Idk maybe thinking if using on flat set

[trappnman]

Re flats sets: many years ago, my old buddy Wiley E made me really reassess how I made flat sets. I was in a period where I was enamored by flat sets, and not only flat sets, but as subtle a flat set as I could possibly make, even to the point of hiding the wobble holes I used for lure. I was describing this to Scott, and was saying how it seemed I was getting more digging at the set, but not getting the coyote-

and Wiley said in his opinion, coyotes dug more (randomly or rather in a broad pattern) if they couldn't see any origin of the odors.

which made sense when I thought about it- if the coyote can't pinpoint where the odor is coming from, he is going to be a little more cautious and dig at the edges, etc-

so yes digging at a flat set can indeed be more of a problem than in a hole set-