coyotes- same set, or mix them up?

[trappincoyotes39]

Most coyote populations are not true packs but family groups that break up more times than not depending on food, weather and other factors.

[trappnman]

its a distinction, but an important distinction indeed TC

[RdFx]

As TC mentioned about yote familys vs packs.... ive been teaching family grps for 30 yrs and dispersal..... One can teach points but will student have enough get up and go to apply to more than one season of chasing canines..... to understand what is going on.....

[primitiveman]

Once again we're getting hung up on semantics....call it what you will. Nonetheless a hierarchy exists among canines and nothing anyone can say will dissuade me on the points made.

[trappnman]

So A)is coyotes have a hierarchy amd therefore B)pups won't work anything with a "dominate" scent at it.

I agree with A-

If you cannot be dissuaded from B, thats A-ok with me.

all I can repeat, is after 28 years of seriously pursuing coyotes, I do not find any truth in that.

if you do, you do

and you should indeed continue doing what you feel is right.

[primitiveman]

As I said before....some pups will if they possess dominant traits.

[trappincoyotes39]

The higher archy is not pack dominate Becuase most coyotes aren't a true packing animal, agressive behavior in coyotes aren't always the older coyotes the so called educated coyotes, that I have seen. Agressive coyotes are easier than more tentative coyotes at times as well. all this talk about taking the alpha yadda, yadda is semantics when talking about fur trapping coyotes for maximum harvest. In a healthy fall population the make up of coyotes is upwards of 50 percent and higher newbie coyotes born that spring.

Much of what some are afraid of is semantics because when a commercial lure maker makes gland lure it is a mixture of glands and same with pee so factor in that keeping the things in those glands that would set off a young or timid coyote would be about impossible. It is a ground up mixture of varying ages of glands and pee is pee unless your angle sourcing your pee. Again where one sets a trap has more to do with that what is used. I have caught plent of longer coyotes on coyote gland lure and coyote pee, ever watch a small dog run afraid of a fire hydrant for fear of a dominate dog peeing there? Nope they piss on the fire hydrant as well a natural reaction.

Scent marking by most animals in itself is a weak form of claiming territory by itself as what critter worth his salt would vacate an area by scent alone? More of an informational gathering aspect than a flee or fight response.

Again when looking at fall fur trapping your looking for areas that have multiple aged tracks coming and going to that spot. That is where maximum potential to catch the most fur will be.

[trappnman]

insightful post TC-

[trappnman]

although I want to point out this- tracks, coming and going,m often only mean coyotes are passing through. Where we disagree, i think, is in are those places most condusive to working a set compared to stall out areas?

[primitiveman]

"agressive behavior in coyotes aren't always the older coyotes the so called educated coyotes"
"
Never in any of my posts did I state this...in fact I specifically said pups with dominant traits will not shy away from dominant coyotes, so no it is not only older coyotes.

"commercial lure maker makes gland lure it is a mixture of glands and same with pee so factor in that keeping the things in those glands that would set off a young or timid coyote would be about impossible"

Which is why I am no longer using commercial gland lure and baits...I want to know what I am offering...not what someone tells me is in there. I don't want something thrown together with dozens of different scents...how would anyone know what is really the key. Kinda like throwing a handful of sh*t on the wall and looking to see what sticks. Not good research if you ask me. I prefer to control the offering so I KNOW what works and what doesn't. So impossible...no; hard work....depends on how you look at it.

I do agree that location does play a major role, more so even than what's in the hole so to speak, but as I have mentioned before, I don't always have the luxury of setting the "best" locations so I have to catch the ones passing through.

[trappincoyotes39]

What is impossible is keeping natural hormones suspended in a gland lure for any length of time by even making your own gland lure. deer hunters have been buying this concept for years buying high dollar doe esterous pee that comes from the peak of the cycle, the hard part is keeping all those goodies alive and suspended in the bottle for shelf life!

You might find this interesting as well I have my doubts as to any trapping supply dealer going through these pains for urine based products but the point is bacteria causes miscues in what one thinks they are smelling. www.palocreative.com/clients/docs/facility.html

The main point is getting them to commit to a smell and keeping that smell a constant as much as possible, but each to his own thoughts on lures and baits.


If we remember one study had coyotes on the periphery 20 times more likely to investigate a scent station or novel stimuli than in more familiar locals if my memory is correct.

[primitiveman]

Your statement further justifies why NOT to use commercial lures/baits. The key is small batches; however, your average trapper does not want to take the time to figure out what works and what doesn't...much easier to go to a catalog that reads "best seller" or something else just short of "magic bait guaranteed to catch'em all!!!!!" and you too for just a few bucks can have the best coyote lure/bait out there.

No offense to any particular bait/lure maker out there, but let's be honest, there is a market for commercial baits/lures and you are simply trying to capitalize on it with your products. When I walk around conventions seeing guys buying this stuff by the buckets, I have to chuckle to myself. Folks you are making this a whole lot more complicated than you need to. As one of these suppliers from Wisconsin once said, "I can catch as many coyotes on peanut butter as any bait out there."

But he still sells bait/lure by the truckload because too many are afraid of missing out.

I'm not saying your average coyote will not be fooled by commercial lures; however, the ones that have been "educated" or simply have something bred in to them to be more elusive are not going to be fooled consistently with a commercial lure/bait that smells of dozens of secret "herbs and spices." Too unnatural.

[trappnman]

when I collared, collaring somewhere in the mid twenties in total coyotes, I recaught 6 of them within a year. Several of those, were alpha pairs- and I state they are alphas, because radio results showed they were a pair, and physical results showed the female having pups- so no longer "average" coyotes, but coyotes that have been caught, then poked and prodded by humans, had a collar attached, and released-

Same sets, same lures, same commercial urine. Can't get more educated than that- so those educated coyotes I caught, something like 25-30% of the released coyotes,noy only succumbed to "commercial" lure but the SAME sets.

Either i'm that good, or its nonsense about the storied reluctance to be elusive after seeing coyotes in traps, or smelling the lure before, or even caught, poked and prodded.

the myth of targetting a certain class, is just that- a myth.

but believe what you will- I look forward to seeing your catch pictures and have a great year!

[trappnman]

the very important thing one needs to keep in mind- is that a truly elusive coyote, is going to be there and gone, with you thinking that nothing showed up-

meaning a wary, or elusive coyote isn't going to even come close to a set- if he comes through, and works the set and doesn't get caught, then he is NOT an elusive coyote- hes just reacting to YOUR set in a negative way

or my set or whosever set...................

[RdFx]

(meaning a wary, or elusive coyote isn't going to even come close to a set- if he comes through, and works the set and doesn't get caught, then he is NOT an elusive coyote- hes just reacting to YOUR set in a negative way)

Agree with yr above statement.....

[primitiveman]

The fact that you caught them twice probably only suggests their coyote brethren were happy to have them culled from the gene pool

"the myth of targetting a certain class, is just that- a myth"

Why because you can't do it? or because I can?

[trappnman]

yes, that it-

[trappincoyotes39]

I don't buy for a second you can clearly target these coyotes unless your trapping durring the denning season or late spring to any real degree that is. Too much of the Mark June theories floating about these days. None of which makes much sense considering your trying to maximize the catch durring normal,fur season time frames.

But what ever floats ones boat.

[primitiveman]

""Too much of the Mark June theories floating about these days."

I've never once read a page from any book he's written, never watched a video he has made, nor ever spoken a word to the man, so if there is a correlation between what my theories are and what he says...purely coincidental.

"None of which makes much sense considering your trying to maximize the catch durring normal,fur season time frames."

Imagine that....it doesn't make sense to you. And by the way, I've stated I choose not to be a long liner, thus I maximize my catch with the coyotes and ground I have to work with. ...all during fur season.

What floats my boat is figuring things out on my own and not being ashamed to think outside the box and disagree with the experts....

My system is far from perfect, but it's just that....MY system.....not something someone else told me works.

[trappincoyotes39]

Primitive man thanks for your insight, you might want to look up Mark June I think you find you both have similar setups as well. I don't think I " parrot" anyone really. I have read tons of books, research and spent many years chasing coyotes and doing it full time for a spell as well. I have also come across and had the opportunity to work with and have long discussions on coyotes with a few really good coyote hands in my life. I have learns from them and I know they have learned from me, that is what information sharing is all about.

You have your system and no one begrudges you for that, the problem being is we are talking maximizing the numbers of coyotes caught, not targeting so called alpha males which tend to be less alpha come fur season. I could tell you of times 55+ coyotes camped out on 10,000 acres of ground, and a a calf kill deal where there was 32-34 coyotes killed all within 2.5 miles, not a lot of alpha behavior taking place there, a sharing of the resource and a group effort if you will.

Yes coyotes have traits some more dominate than others no doubt, my feelings are some try to link wolf behavior into coyote trapping for the majority of the US this doesn't ring true, note the word majority and exploited versus unexploited coyote populations. Hard to build up neophobic clues to things like good commercial lure rotated in and out and dealing with fresh coyote minds each year.

I have had traps on some ranchers year round and the aversion to commercial lure and bait just wasn't there much at all. Rotation of quality products works well.

You have your way and others have theirs but to target alpha males in the fall and times of dispersion tells me a lot. lets not forget good coyote habitat doesn't sit vacant for long periods of time. This is a key in this discussion. Also you might find interest in Mark Junes white bucket theory that he wrote bout look it up and see if it has any application in your alpha trapping methodology. It may be of interest to you and your system as well.