coyotes- same set, or mix them up?

[bogio]

What have you seen or done to indicate certain sets target certain classes and even more interesting to me, how do you "make" the coyote want to work a set regardless of where it is placed?

[primitiveman]

As I said earlier, no claims here of an exact science...just referring to what I've witnessed on my own trap line and feedback I've gotten over the past couple years from a trapper who has definitely helped me increase my knowledge of coyotes ten fold. For both of us, there definitely is a pattern beginning to show regarding what I call pup sets versus sets I would make intending for dominant coyotes....100%...not a chance, but like I said there is definitely a correlation in needs of more research and development before I would proclaim it as gospel.

As far as "making" a coyote work a set, I did not intend to imply "regardless of where it is placed." There are definitely places that will produce and far more that won't. The circumstance I was referring to was seeing tracks walking past a set or briefly glancing but not committing. Essentially a coyote is close but for whatever reason not stopping to work the set. One minor change at several sets triggered catches on multiple occasions last season. Here again, just observations I have made and info from the trapper I mentioned above...far from a science at this point.

[trappnman]

so you think there is a a set, that appeals more to adult males than YOY?

what do you call pup sets, and why? and conversely, what do you call adult sets and why?

because I believe just the opposite, that there is no set, that appeals to one more than the other.

[bogio]

Tman took my question for the first part of your answer right out of my mouth.

The secound part of your answer correlates to the very behavior being discussed in the other behavior thread. Would like to hear more from you about why you think the avoidance take place and what will change that reaction towards our favor.

[musher]

If the set isn't for pups then it's the famous, or infamous, Alpha set!

[primitiveman]

"what do you call pup sets, and why? and conversely, what do you call adult sets and why?"

I eluded to this in my very first post...... "Flashy sets are part of my arsenal and account for most of the pups I catch, but are used more so as a general attractant for my other sets. More times than not it is the subtle set 20 feet away that takes the dominant dogs." Not necessarily referring specifically to type of set (dirt hole, flat set, blind set). It's the presentation that's the key...for me it's a matter of refining a truly consistent pattern in what I do with each type of set that determines whether it will primarily catch a certain class. Who knows....maybe it's been dumb luck all along and I'm not on to anything monumental. Sure is fun testing things tho to see if it's coincidence or cause/effect.

"why you think the avoidance take place and what will change that reaction towards our favor?"

That my friend is what we are still trying to perfect.... Not ready to play that hand quite yet.

[curdog]

not 100 % sure of why avoidance takes place many things can cause it. but i do believe u can trigger a reaction in coyotes or so put them in the mindset to work the set ! i played with this the last couple of seasons with a high % in coyotes giving up their hides! location is a factor but from what i have seen u the trapper can put the coyotes in the right mindset!" take advantage of coyote behavior" use it against them. good luck an have fun cant wait to get after um! curdog

[rionueces]

I use flat sets when the ground is too hard to dig a dirt hole. Which is a lot of time down here where there are gravelly caliche hills. Lots of cats and yotes in these areas with thick brush. Unless I am trapping for cats, I almost always use a dirt hole set if the ground isn't too hard. A dirt hole will make them work the set longer....

[bogio]

Primitive man,

If you would, read through the thread "an innate behavior" and give an opinion as to whether or not you believe you could trigger a different response from those coyotes in that situation.

[trappnman]

so the question then becomes this- do subtle sets catch more adult coyotes, than "flashy" sets?

and if so- why?

Innate behaviors are inherited, not learned- this means that at birth, coyote pups have these characteristics inbedded into them.

consider this- in a "normal" population, you are going to have 60-70% pups. that means at least its my opinion, that your set is going to be exposed to 60 to 70% to YOY, and 30-40% of the time to adults

and in a season, most people get about that % of pups vs adults

so lets go back to the set itself- and I am saying this not to bust your balls in any way because I applaud your participation in these discusssions- but what you are calling a flashy set, is perhaps not what I call a flashy set- and if the set is such that it does trigger negative innate beaviors (in all age classes)then I agree, that while the overall attractiveness is diminished through all age classes, of the % that do work, the majority might well be pups.

[trappnman]

one late spring, I had some collars to put on. I thought since it was pup time, I'd take by far 2 types of coyotes- transients of either sex, or adult males.

I think I put on 8-9, and to a coyote they were adult females, and most of them lactating.

I was filled with theorys, but as I was told, all it meant was the first 8-9 coyotes I caught, were such.

[primitiveman]

Not to thrust myself into this conversation but at the request of another I will do my best to answer his question.

I think we all can agree that at some level coyotes avoid sets for one reason or another....only the coyote truly knows why. all we can do is theorize why and do what we can to make him trigger.

just as the coyote has what you call an innate reason for avoiding a set I believe it also has innate reasons that will trigger a hit.....an almost uncontrollable urge.

I'm not saying I have the answer to the Y it finally hits but what I am saying is that what we have done triggers response time and time again.

[trappnman]

I don't disagree with any of the above.

but none of that answers the question- as to WHAT set type, would appeal MORE to an adult, than a YOY.

and I don't believe that can be answered, simply becasue I cannot fathom how a set that would appeal to one, would not appeal to another and conversely- what would repel one more than the other (age class)

for example- a big properly made set thats flashy ie torn up ground, right backing, right hole/guiding/approach and right lures/baits and urine use would be attractive to pups, but also equally to adults.

same with a very subtle set- its still going to catch the first that comes by.

but I can see you do beleive that- since you don't want to go into detail on the sets you think attracts one more than the other, perhaps you would explain the reasoning WHY?

[trappnman]

also- yes, some coyotes simply do not work a set, they are lure/bait/location/set shy- so lets ignore those, since for all practical purposes for us as a fur trapper, they no longer exist. and as stated either here or the other thread, those you seldom know are there, because they DON'T circle a set, work it from the back, etc

so throw those coyotes out of the mix, and you are left with ones that are seemingly random in their choice to work a set- sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

THESE are the coyotes we have to work with.

and the question we need to ask- is there a REASON they are circling a set, etc- or is it entirely random in that behavior?

I believe that its NOT random behavior, and therefore there are reasons WHY such occurs.

and I think those reasons come down to 3 points-

location
mindset at that location
set type and presentation

if 1 of the three is off, then you get that "random" action, and you get that stay back action, worry a set now, work it later

I do not bleive there is one set that is magic, or causes coyotes to committ suicide- by by the same token I DO believe that you can minimize such actions by keeping the 3 above points in mind.

[primitiveman]

Tman,

sorry I was not trying to avoid your questions I just haven't got a chance to reply. since we've both landed back on this thread and the two are quite similar can we agree to merge the two so I don't have to keep jumping back and forth? I'll be back with answers to your questions.....

[primitiveman]

From the "other" thread

"so the question then becomes this- do subtle sets catch more adult coyotes, than "flashy" sets? and if so- why?"

Yes...still working on an absolute why, but for me, what I call flashy sets (regardless of the set type) are more often pup catchers.



"Innate behaviors are inherited, not learned- this means that at birth, coyote pups have these characteristics inbedded into them."

I'm familiar with the term...also familiar with natural selection. Not all pups innately avoid sets in the same manner, which is why some get caught (or commit suicide as others here have put it) and others don't (not to say it isn't dumb luck or lack of trapping pressure that saves many). As far as innate behaviors, I also feel there is something that triggers a coyote to hit a set he otherwise has avoided, which is what we have been experimenting with quite successfully over the past two seasons.



"and in a season, most people get about that % of pups vs adults"

I agree...."most"....depends on my purpose at a particular location...if I'm trapping property where the owner wants "every" coyote killed (knowing this will never be possible) I set a variety of sets that tend to produce numbers of all classes of coyotes and make the farmer happy.....gets me back to his place and who knows, he might even tell his neighbors. If I'm setting a property where the owner doesn't really care...then I'm not so concerned about catching every class of coyote because in the end, every adult female I don't catch means more pups the next year....(please don't confuse this with saying I try not catch adults....definitely not that) In these cases I can simply slam in sets that I know will at least catch pups and not take the extra time to trouble shoot avoidances and make the subtle changes needed to catch the adults....only so much time in the day


"I was filled with theorys, but as I was told, all it meant was the first 8-9 coyotes I caught, were such."

which is why they are theories....so true tho

[primitiveman]

"is there a REASON they are circling a set, etc- or is it entirely random in that behavior?"

Yes there is a reason, but there are too many variables for me to say why a particular coyote avoided your set...I would have to see you construct a set and then see the sign left behind at the avoidance. With any missed coyote, the only thing I can control is the changes I make to cause him to hit.



"and I think those reasons come down to 3 points-

location
mindset at that location
set type and presentation

if 1 of the three is off, then you get that "random" action"

Anything but random in my opinion...

Location is a must....I think we all agree without a good location success isn't even part of the equation

Set type and presentation....I agree but this is where we veer apart because I feel an adult that avoids one of my sets will get caught in another that is more subtle

Mindset...Here's where you and I disagree the most....I will paraphrase you in saying that you feel the mindset is dependent upon the location. I say regardless of the mindset (as long as location, set type and presentation are up to snuff), I can PUT him in the mindset!



Trust me, I never believed it either until it was proven to me by another, and now I'm beginning to see it at my own locations. I think too often we try too hard to see what's been there all along. Some of you make this far to complex then look for quick answers. There's something to be said for reading between the lines of some of your posts...keep them coming! I for one don't want "the answer" handed to me...

[jsevering]

take the young dumb and run... I was under the impression you wanted locations that were comfortable enough to be worked long enough, to collapse the social structure of more than one family group and allow dispersals into territory without maintained scent markings or aggravation lines, if you just use one set and type and avoid all other mind sets... natural or with a man made catalyst... how would that be even close to possible, unless you stumble on that type of scenario by the grace of god or lucky enough to have a dispersal route like the beltway around Washington dc?.... jim

[trappnman]

primativeman- I used quotes around random, because agreed it is anything but random, except in the discussions concerning it. If a coyote avoids a set (discounting that 10%)then there is indeed a reason for it.

so the question then needs to be asked- what caused that reaction (the very questions bogio opened this thread with).

and it only can come down to 1 of three things- mindset, location (and really these two are intertwined) or set type/presentation.

we agree on that.

and if you want to stay for weeks on weeks- then yes, catching "all" the coyotes will be aided by trying different sets, or completely different lures baits presentations- but until that stage- its first come first serve. I've never disagreed, and have said so, on ADC coyotes, which as 1080 points out is what this type of setting is

I no longer want to, nor need to in fur season catch "all" the coyotes. I want the most, the qucikest and stated that to do so (in the other thread) I'm going to use the set that I find, to be the most appealling across the spectrum of age classes. add that set to the location that allows him to pay attention to the set in a non high alert state

Where we disagree, is that there is one set type that consistently takes one age class over another- that there is one AGE CLASS that will work a specific set more or less.

and on that, I totally disagree.

earlier I mentioned that I once got to the point where I found flat sets far outproducing my hole sets- but over time, I found the opposite to be true- my hole sets, were, far outproducing my flat sets.

same flat sets. the lesson I learned, was it wasn't "the hole set" it was "MY hole set"

I debated wendt and other for many years, on the premise flat sets got cageier coyotes, etc- I was wrong.

-------------
Dispersal routes are not even part of at least my conversation concerning any of this. I talked above about setting in areas where high alert status was minimal- what state of alert do you think travelling and dispersing coyotes are in?

lets put it this way- do you think a coyote finding a set where he stalls out, senses in neutral or at least as much as he's ever going to do so is going to work it the same as one he encounters travelling/dispersing in full alert mode- head up, ears pointed, nostrils flaring?

how many of those pass by sets, will he even be aware of?

not sure jim what you meant by "even close to possible"?

[jsevering]

steve... I was referring to one set type and your elimination of coyote types, we all know are there... in regard to your previous post.... or will be there in real time... i was under the impression at least part these conversations over time were in regards to targeting more than one family group at a time and that structure in regard to location was a part of it.... jim