coyotes- same set, or mix them up?

[primitiveman]

I've never considered myself an ADC trapper, although some properties I have to talk that talk with the landowner. All of my trapping is done during the fur season. I don't stick around to catch "all" the coyotes...I stick around because it helps me get better at my craft. But for the sake of discussion, we'll call it what you will.

Believe it or not my most productive "alpha" set is also hole set...MY hole set, but I will say subtle flat sets, for me, still far out produce alphas over other flashy pup sets...just my experience. Not saying you're method does not work for you, but like I said in a different post, we trap for different reasons. I'm simply responding to questions others have asked. I would be curious to see what you do differently with your flashy hole set that is producing so many alphas. I'm always up for learning new tricks.

" what state of alert do you think travelling and dispersing coyotes are in? "

Varies from coyote to coyote. However, any coyote is an opportunist and can be triggered to commit. Most traveling coyotes may have an intended destination in mind, but the route differs. I may not have permission to trap the location he comes from or where he is going so I HAVE to make him commit while he is passing by...which does make them more difficult, but not impossible, to catch. Dispersing coyotes (assuming you are referring to pups) to me have no known destination, other than not where it left from, tend to find themselves at set locations because of eye appeal, scent, etc. Couple that with the fact they have pup mentality, they end up at the end of the trap chain with a new steel bracelet.

"do you think a coyote finding a set where he stalls out, senses in neutral or at least as much as he's ever going to do so is going to work it the same as one he encounters travelling/dispersing in full alert mode- head up, ears pointed, nostrils flaring?"

Considering I don't have the luxury of trapping only these stall out areas, it doesn't matter to me...I have to get him in the mindset regardless of where he is when he encounters my setup...but at face value answering your question, given the two scenarios you listed above, the stall out would most likely be the easiest spot to get him to commit. I would love to have situations where all of my setups are stall outs...as you describe, but that's not the case for me; and I'm not willing or able to put the daily miles on that you do...but that's an entirely different discussion.

"how many of those pass by sets, will he even be aware of?"

Aware of....most....commit to.....well that's entirely up to the man making the sets

[trappnman]

jim- conversations over time were in regards to targeting more than one family group at a time and that structure in regard to location was a part of it....

it is- but thats not talking dispersal. "I was referring to one set type and your elimination of coyote types"

I'm not talking elimination- i'm talking about maximum appeal to all types

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my point is the opposite of what you state - not that a flashy set takes more adults than pups, but that it takes the first to work it whatever that may be

Aware of....most....commit to.....well that's entirely up to the man making the se

you can put the best set in a wrong location, and its not going to produce consistently IMO

you can put the worst set in the right location, and it will outproduce the above scenario

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but if it doesn't matter to you, then we have gone as far as you and I can go in this discussion without repeating things over and over

cause it DOES matter to me-

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you really haven't addressed why you feel one type of set, is attrative to one age class over another- all these little side tangents are fun- but its still back to that-

define your 'flashy pup set"

[trappnman]

two questions if you would be so kind-

when you set a location, do you just target adults first, making only adult sets?

when you set up your "prime location" on that farm, or the best spot, or the stallout spot- do you target that spot with adult sets or pup sets, or both?

[curdog]

i think as a trapper depending on ur line you have to set up accordinly if ur a longliner u can duplicate ur sets over an over because u are on different litters spread out for miles an miles but if ur a shortliner wanting to take the most coyotes out of a few small farms u need to mix ur set types an try to catch all or as many as u can out of the litters u got.

[curdog]

get old female first rest of litter comes easy... location where i get old male first ma takes the kids an runs. will pick up 1 or 2 beta males an thats it for that "location" thats what i have witnessed. so i try to get her first...havent figured that out 100%. but the day i do watch out.. lol! i agree with tman on first come first serve as far as what coyote gets to set first. sum may disagree thats fine we all have different theorys. bottom line is i like killing coyotes so im not to picky on whos bouncing around first!

[trappnman]

where I'm at is this-

now keep in mind, I'm not talking about mixing sets to catch the last few here.

in general-

I can understand making a set, that would only catch pups, or at least a vast majority of pups. and that would be a set that delibrately increases neophobic behaviors, because like us, I'm betting that with coyotes along with age comes wisdom-

so if one wanted to catch pups, then not so much use a flashy set, but use a set (ie small distinct patterns)that would shy away the majority of adults.

but where the logic fails me, is how do you then make a set that DOES appeal to most adults, but shys away pups? Because, unless I'm really missing something I just don't see how you could do anything to that set that would accomplish that.

and by the same token, how do you target a female adult? I understand your post curdog, in that you haven't figured it all out yet, but what do you do, to try to increase those odds?

[jsevering]

deleted my post... just now read the start of the thread, guess I got mixed up, caught in the middle when the thread jumped over to the other... sorry about that steve... jim

[trappnman]

heck jim- didn't even notice it all blends into one 2 part thread-

[curdog]

i try to increase my odds on adults with scents that pups tend to shy away from. i make my own scent so i know exactly what is in it. i think that makes a big difference. but its still a first come basis. thats why gang setting is important as we all know. i do use sum commercial scents but after this season will b on 100% my own scents.

[trappnman]

now I understand that you aren't going to tell me what you put in your lures-

but- perhaps you would expound on what types of odors, cause pups to shy?

not trying to be contrary, but IMO lures as well, appeal equally throughout the age classes.

convince me otherwise...

[primitiveman]

"you really haven't addressed why you feel one type of set, is attrative to one age class over another- all these little side tangents are fun- but its still back to that-

define your 'flashy pup set"

Technically.....I guess "set" is not the proper term...I should say presentation because it really doesn't matter if its a hole or a flat set



"but where the logic fails me, is how do you then make a set that DOES appeal to most adults, but shys away pups?"

So I believe we agree there are sets that adults will shy away from (small distinct pattern as you mentioned, as well as various others)....hence what i call pup sets (not to say these sets cannot catch adults). As far as the adults only sets, curdog is on to something and has a big piece of the puzzle. other factors include location relative to and approaches to and from the avoided pup sets. Just my opinion based on what I've analyzed with big tracks that have avoided my sets. There are behavioral tendencies, call it evolutionary survival traits, that keep alphas out of many of our traps. If you think Clyde Briggs caught o'three toes on his first outing....you're mistaken. By studying the evidence left behind you gain insight into future success with targeting alphas.

[primitiveman]

TMan

For me, at this point, to say I can roll into an area and catch only adults...definitely not close to that YET. Considering most of my success with adults comes mainly after some other sets have been avoided, this style is definitely not for most of you longliners. For now I'm happy picking up whatever coyote slips up and ends up in a trap, but I have to admit fooling alphas is turning into an obsession.

[trappnman]

Considering most of my success with adults comes mainly after some other sets have been avoided

and thats it in a nutshell- WHY are the adults, avoiding your sets?

I'm not trying to turn you around here- but wouldn't a longliner, or even more so someone with few traps, want to make sets that are NOT avoided?

[rionueces]

The one trap that an alpha male or female can't avoid or detect is a snare.... I sometimes get into situations where I have snared almost every coyote in and around a high fenced ranch. There may be only one or two coyotes on a thousand acres. The smart ones have seen every lure and set that I have to offer, and may have been educated by one of my sets where they had a near miss or were hung up briefly. In these instances I will blind set trails or crawl unders with no lure, or I will set snares in the same locations. After a few weeks I may get a call from the landowner saying "well you finally caught that SOB".

[trappincoyotes39]

Consider the makeup of a healthy population and one can an see your odds are more young coyotes than older to begin with.

Alphas is a general term at best, much goes into what makes and alpha in the first place.

I remember the white bucket article from a few years back on conditioning alpha coyotes LOL.

[garbage collector]

Don't forget about the pumpkin study as well.

[primitiveman]

TMan....haven't been on in a while, but I'll try to answer your question.

"WHY are the adults, avoiding your sets? "

Because of the mistakes I'VE made with my setups....that are still good enough to fool pups and some adults on the first go round, but not adults that have learned to or instinctively avoid unnatural scents, sights,etc. With every avoidance I study what has been left behind...as I start to see patterns I adjust my methods/setups and have seen a significant decrease with avoidances at old and new sets.

With every season I am getting more effective targeting all classes and reducing avoidances.

[trappnman]

I understand completely what you posted above

thats the trouble with the internet and posting, I took your previous posts to mean you were delibrately making sets for pups, and delibately making sets for adults.

Because of the mistakes I'VE made with my setups....that are still good enough to fool pups and some adults on the first go round, but not adults

thats exactly right. Now keep in mind, and i've said it before, that my sets aren't THE set, but they are the best I can do, in trying to make a set that appeals to all age classes or more apt sets that don't cause negative behaviors with all age classes.

have learned to or instinctively avoid unnatural scents, sights,etc.

you are getting it- but you need to then understand that the LOCATION comes into play as much as the set itself does.

so that for maximum effecientcy (and for all the talk about % and traps etc thats what it comes down to) you need 2 things- set construction to bring out the minimum negative behaviors, and a location that allows it to happen. The talk about "THE SPOT" then comes down to the above, and the talk about multiple groups comes down to this- fewer traps, with a larger pool to take coyotes from, equates to more efficentcy- thus allowing those 50-100 traps to be on far more coyotes, in a shorter time, in a location where they have more time, more attention, call it whatever you wish but bottomline- they wrok a set better that locations like travelways, roads intersections, etc. It should always be as once told to me, not how many you took, but how many you missed

[primitiveman]

Not to say I don't plan to have it figured out in the future...curdog and I are on to something as I stated before. He told me he PM'd you to answer your question about a piece of it because he didn't want to air it out in the public forum but you never replied to him.....??

No hard feelings though....we'll keep up the "research and development" on our own and perhaps after a few seasons have a refined system that targets the adults first so we can then mop up on the pups and other subordinates.

Stay tuned........

[trappnman]

actually, I thought I had answered curdog, but looking now I see I haven't- I'll do so after this post

I see though, you have now swung back to your original stamtent- that it IS possible to target adults first via the set type.

I've asked several times not so much what set, but what coyote behaviors do you think would allow that to happen- and thats a fair question I beleive.

and the reason I state that, is that I've posted that I do not think its possible to target adults before pups, although as you posted it is possible to take pups and not adults, just through the set construction

curdog pmd me his thoughts, and w/o discussing what curdog asked me not to, that it was in whats down the hole at the set not so much the set. and again, my personal thoughts are that its not possible to do so- that any set made, and lured to take "the first" adult that comes by, is also going to take the first pup that comes by.

in fact, I'd be pretty safe in betting, that at a set, chances are 60% or better, that yo uWILL catch a pup first, simply becasue 60% and more of a normal population ARE pups.

I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion, but the balls in yoru court, you need to discuss more than vague generalities to contine the conversation.

and certainly no hard feelings on my part.....