A Couple More Passable Ones

[bogio]

Yes to all the above.

Location by far the most important and not just where but WHERE. That's what I'm working on.

[Zagman]

Yes to all.......

Agree with Bogio.....all the right stink, set type, etc. don't mean poop if the set is in the wrong spot.

Of course I'd love to set nothing up BUT what I call A-plus locations.....and that would certainly increase my percentages......

There's only so much time in the day for me to trap AND skin....eventually, driving further and further to get to these A-plus spots (that I currently do not trap) eventually can no longer make sense, especially for a one-man band. I turn down TONS of potential trapping inquiries as they are simply just too far away.........

Loops, by their very definition, have you starting near home and ending up near home......so a huge percentage of my loop is established and silly to drive by.......IMO.

So while I agree on wanting to improve daily percentages, driving further and further in the middle part of my loop (where I don't now trap, but to get to "better" locations) doesn't get me home at a decent enough time to skin my day's run.....along remakes, adding new farms, and transitioning into the new loop.

We will agree to disagree on this one.....

While I certainly understand your desire to find the Fountain of Youth, I have accepted reality and just going for the plastic surgery and Botox.......

Not sure I can express my thoughts any clearer than I did in this post.

Zagman

[trappnman]

why not hire a skinner? O'G did for many years.

what you say is very true, insofar that setting up all locations, doesn't give you time to search on A type locations. but if money isn't the object, then why not take the time, to find those locations?

It took me 3 years to expand my line to have short check loops, and to try to fil lthose loops with A type locations. Once those loops are set up, then its just a matter of finding those locations, within the loops. It was hard for me to expand- such a myriad of farms and roads and possiblities. Last year, I finalized the loops insofar as where I'll drive to cover the most of each loop, and on the 3, really 3 1/2 new loops- I tried to get nothing but A type locations-

not entirely successful of course, but now, with more familiarity of the area, I can add to, eliminate and tweak.

distance and time really isn't relevant comparing the 2 styles, as once set up-on a daily basis, both would be about the same now, as under my old style. As bob once said- I'd rather drive 20 miles to check a full trap, than 1 to check empty traps.

So lets say when I was "adc trapping" so to speak- I'd have say 30-40 locations running 80-100 traps, and would stay at least 2 weeks, if not longer. My goal now, is to have half that many locations, and eventually the same number of traps- catching more coyotes, covering more coyote groups by not staying longer.


Cause thats it for me in summing all this discussion up- to run and gun, to set up and check traps for only 4,5 at the most 6 checks- to have the coyote coming to ME, rather than me going to each pair or singleton which takes nothing but time- I need to have only "come to" type locations. And then, on those "come to" locations, to find "the spot" where they can be taken the quickest

I love travel ways and setting up longer- did it for years with good success. and I freely admit- I thought 7-10% on a fur line, was pretty good. It gave me coyotes to skin pretty much every day, and I picked up a lot of incidentals as well.

and to be 100% straightforward- until 1080 came along- I'd still be doing what I did. I imagined him coming to my area, and taking 3-4Xs the coyotes, in a fraction of the time. and I haven't a doubt in the world he would do it.

so if HE can do it, I can do it- or at least thats the lifetime goal.

I decided for me, that I was tired of looking at empty traps- or being somewhere a week or more for a coyote. My thought before 1080, was purely mechanical- that I could, eventually, put in a set that 90% of the coyotes that were aware of it, would work.

but after the discussions, I came to realize that my sets were ok enough- but #1 I was setting for coyotes that weren't there when I was and #2 the inherent natures of coyotes was working against me.

every method book out there it seems, says set up on tracks, travelways, corners, edges etc- and I used to beleive, that if a coyote came by, and I had a good mix of sets in the area (flat set, hole set, etc) that more likely than not, he was mine.

I've come to the reverse of thinking this- the discussions and the research, has convinced me that I'm wasting my time, even though I'm catching coyotes, by setting up those type of locations.

and by wasting time- I mean lower %s. T ostop checking so many empty traps. and I don;t mean empty traps so much as I mean empty locations- cause for me, I got traps at a location, and if I get 1 or a double- its a good location for that day.

But I hated, coming into a location, seeing some scat and tracks, seeing clumps of greener grass, setting up- and pulling without a coyote, or maybe one is staying there a while.

We all know how we feel, pulling into an A type location, or area with several in a row to check. You feel confident, cause you know, more often than not, there will be a coyote or two there.

now compare that to a spot where you have checked 3-4 days with nothing-

I just want that A feeling at every stop.

As I get older, just catching coyotes isn't the issue- I've taken as many as pretty much anyone on here, with the obvious exception- so the only way to improve- is to increase the %.

I too, cannot express it any better than that.

[Zagman]

So, when does catch % actually trump actual numbers of target animals?

Extreme example.....you set one trap and catch one target animal/coyote.....100% catch ratio that night.

I see you at the fur sale.....I have 100 coyotes and you have one coyote. But you had a 100% catch ratio, which is way better than mine. I know, I know, but its a starting point.......

At the end of the day, its all about how many you drag to the fur buyer.....

I have yet to get paid on my catch % ratio by any fur buyer.

I think another way of looking at your long term play here, is you want to work less for the same coyotes, right?

Our catches were so similar this year, I can't help but to keep going back to that example. With the same miles, and time each day.....I am still a little surprised to hear you say 115 coyotes in 16 days out of 100 traps is second fiddle to 115 coyotes in five weeks out of 50 traps.

You have more than double the time and expense to get to the same number.....

At $25 per coyote for each man, once you apply expenses, whose "made more" at the end.....aka whose "lost the least?" LOL

I have tried to understand what you are doing but something is missing for me still, that catch % would ever trump total numbers caught, especially when considering expenses and time.

I am sure you are tired of trying to lead this horse to water........and we can and should probably move on.......

I know others are interested in your concept and I am sure the topic will continue.

MZ

[trappnman]

always about you vs me? doesn't that get tedious?

I am still a little surprised to hear you say 115 coyotes in 16 days out of 100 traps is second fiddle to 115 coyotes in five weeks out of 50 traps.


you should be surprised, and I as well, since I never said it

but if that post is your comprehension of what I wrote, wow.

An eureka moment.....

have tried to understand what you are doing but something is missing for me still, that catch % would ever trump total numbers caught, especially when considering expenses and time.


driving a day is driving a day- hours in a day are hours in the day- how you are missing that setting the same number of traps on A locations doesn't give you more coyotes for the same time, that 25% on 100 traps is beter than 7%- etc is beyond me. I cannot explain it any better than I have.

oh wait- you think the exploratory years are the pinnacle of the system?

not hardly-

[CoonDuke]

Steve, do you feel the system will ultimately produce numbers that correlate to the catch percentage? Using the ratios of 7% and 30%, do you feel when you reach the pinnacle of all A plus location it will increase your numbers by 4 times?

[trappnman]

yes Coonduke, I do.

I don't think 25% is possible for me, but I think a consistent 10-15% is, over my current 7-10%

[Zagman]

Never said it?

Re: A Couple More Passable Ones
« Reply #51 on Jan 14, 2013, 1:23pm »
MZ: In the end.....we caught roughly the same amount of coyotes....me in 16 days, you in 35 days.



Tman: and me with half the traps.

You said it on this very thread on page three!

No, this ain't you vs. me.....you are trying to tell all of us a better way of doing it.....and I am showing you a real world comparison of almost identical catches....trying to juxtapose the two approaches and showing why AT LEAST FOR ME, it does not seem like a better way of doing it....again, if our goal is dead coyotes, not percentages.

So, rather than talk real world facts (our catch numbers and time involved/miles) lets just talk conceptually and ignore them? OK!

Like I said.....I am happy with the Botox and you are happy chasing the Fountain of Youth.....different strokes, as you say.

MZ

Postscript: 1080, we have never been talking about setting the same amount of traps.....100 vs. 100. Tman has always talked about setting less traps.

I agree....................enough!

[trappnman]

seriouisly? good grief

yes, I reponded to you posting the number of coyotes you caught, and your days and number of traps vs mine.

but please - tell me how this:

MZ: In the end.....we caught roughly the same amount of coyotes....me in 16 days, you in 35 days.

Tman: and me with half the traps.


equates this:

hear you say 115 coyotes in 16 days out of 100 traps is second fiddle to 115 coyotes in five weeks out of 50 traps.


you gave your data, to what point not sure, and I gave mine.

but in no world I live in, does:

and me with half the traps.

mean the same as

hear you say 115 coyotes in 16 days out of 100 traps is second fiddle to 115 coyotes in five weeks out of 50 traps.



postscript: I've mentioned several times, and i know repeating it again won;t matter that the number of traps is down for now for a specific reason. if you do not know, or agree, or comprehend that reason, too bad- I don't really care either way

but the end goal is indeed to run a 100 traps plus or minus. At fewer locations for sure.

I'd be pleased as punch, with 25 locations with 4 traps each

[thorsmightyhammer]

1080 I agree, time is limited and a guy should only set the high percentage areas if they are unlimited.

If they arent unlimited than what?

[1080]

Jan 22, 2013 18:37:35 GMT -6 Zagman said:

Postscript: 1080, we have never been talking about setting the same amount of traps.....100 vs. 100. Tman has always talked about setting less traps.

Not How I see it !!!

Jan 22, 2013 8:27:29 GMT -6 trappnman said:

.

So lets say when I was "adc trapping" so to speak- I'd have say 30-40 locations running 80-100 traps and would stay at least 2 weeks, if not longer. My goal now, is to have half that many locations, and eventually the same number of traps catching more coyotes, covering more coyote groups by not staying longer.

Currently,you catch more quicker,with roughly twice as many traps.

His program is a work in progress,he openly admits.Will 80-100 traps eventually be set,and for what time frame,3wks,5wks,time will tell.I have mentioned to him to focus on the %,the spots,the bigger picture.With time,IF the 80-100 are set,AND what I advocate is adhered to.He can maximize "HIS" potential.

He is in fact currently setting Half his 80-100,with the goal of 1/2th the locations,and eventually back to 80-100 traps..

If in fact his %`s stay at current/better levels,and 100 traps are set,,,you do the math.

Even at 80 sets.

If 100 sets are run,% to %,it`s a landslide,but once again,it`s the math !!

His 1st 21days (mathmatically) will exceed yours.Now,he has Lori,your 15yrs younger,is it a wash?
Hard telling,you put up with 2 dogs, he, a woman (shoot me either way)

I will say skinning on the line is great,BUT you better be Fast.Tman,I saw your video,you ain`t fast

Hopefully,,this battle will end....

Me.....I put my money on Andy,but I`m biased !!

[thorsmightyhammer]

Thanks for the reply 1080.

Nope I'm not a coyote guy(self admitted).

Never will be. When the time comes(if) that I get a hard on to catch a bunch, I'm gonna head off to Texas where the pickins are easier.

My accountant is the one who told me not to do itlol.

You answered my question on if what to do if the A spots arent unlimited in that you believe that the locations arent unlimited.

But what if my ability to find the locations is limited?

Are you suggesting I stay the course and run the locations I am able to discern to the detriment of my overall numbers.



But what would you suggest I do when I decide to start

[trappnman]

But what if my ability to find the locations is limited?

Are you suggesting I stay the course and run the locations I am able to discern to the detriment of my overall numbers.



But what would you suggest I do when I decide to start


I can't speak for how any others would approach it, but it seemed like a logical place to start for me.

What I needed to accomplish, was not how to catch coyotes in traps, nor hit any perceived goal, but to learn how to find and recognize the locations I needed to be at. I don't have a doubt in the world I'm seeing such spots, but am not as pointed out recognizing them as such.

could I have caught more coyotes last year by setting up 100 traps on lots more locations- sure, of that I have no doubt- the singletons add up-

but to learn new, you cannot continue with old. If I want to only catch coyotes at A spots- then catching them at other locations, tells me nothing.

for example- lets say here is an A spot. All coyote will come there from that area.

so I set up that area, then I set up all the travel lanes and lesser spots surrounding that area.

what have I learned?

nothing.

so in effect I'm sacrificing additional numbers in the short term, to punitively increase my numbers long term.

[bogio]

The first photo of this thread shows a problem with straight link chain becoming caught on the pan post of the monty dogless trap. It also shows I was still using some universal swivels. I have switched everything over to the above pictured chain set up. 24 inches total length, cut back from 30 to 36. I couldn't find a source for the Sterling swivels so I made my own. The bail on the body is a little longer than the originals but is how I have always built them with no problems experienced. I will use a #6 J hook on the end swivel to connect to my staking rig. I also have forgone the shock springs at this time as most of mine had alot of age on them and the coyotes destroyed several this past season. I will run them this way this coming season and make any changes based on what I see and experience.

[Gerald Schmitt]

Anyone who is half way intelligent can learn how to make a good set that will catch whatever animal you are targeting, be it from a trapping forum, book or video.

You take a thousand trappers that can dig a good dirthole or pocket set and place the trap properly.

Out of this thousand, maybe 10% can string a trapline along knowing how many sets to put at a location by reading the location and knowing what opportunities are there.

Out of this thousand, maybe 1% can maximize their catch by knowing which locations to set and which ones to drive by, by knowing how many checks to stay at a location before pulling and moving. To be able to place their sets to keep it working as long as possible in adverse weather conditons. Be able to make a set fast with no wasted time or movements.

These are the folks that are making the large catches that some folks cannot comprehend. Or if they only have limited time to trap, they are maximizing their personal catch for the amount of time they have to trap.

And this is something that comes from experience, generally by trying lots of things on a large scale and quickly discarding things that don't work. It is really hard to learn this from a book or DVD.
It also takes being to able to admit to yourself that what your are doing, could be done better or faster.

[motrapperjohn]

Took me to the last picture to see what you were talking about. Next show you are at stop by my booth an d check out my new trap I have been working on. Started 3 years ago but due to trying to keep up with the Dagger it got put on the back burner. Its a dogless design with wire levers and a modified monty pan and a few other things you might like. Been busy building dies for it got about half done. Might have a few ready by this fall for feild testing.

[stickbowhntr]

Hey Carlis you can send me one to try and field test for you, with me, IF IT CAN GO WRONG IT WILL...L.O.L.....YOU KNOW ME!!!