A Couple More Passable Ones

[bogio]

I heard through the grapevine that the landowner had told a local caller that the coyotes were coming up around his house and taking his cats so I approached him about trapping. Long fence line running south from his house towards the river. About half way to the river another fence crosses it forming a four way corner. On the southwest quadrant of that four way, a crescent shaped terrace is built against the east/west fence forming a dry basin. My sets are just south of this terrace.



Looking straight south. Long brushy fence row with a wide buffer strip heading to the river. Bean stubble to the west.



Virlin checking out the coyote who is now on his best behavior.



Second coyote in same set. Looking west. My access was a field road that came south off the gravel to an outside fence corner over that way about 400 yards. The terrace is evident there.



Coyote in the stubble up against the terrace. Shows heigth of terrace better. You can see how it hooks back north to connect to fence forming the basin. That outside corner of the terrace is were I had the pull out. Fence is running straight west to where I come in.



Same coyote looking east. Half a dozen coyote carcasses and a squirrel Virlin caught placed in the basin towards that wooly corner. A fourth coyote was caught in the stubble against the buffer strip about five yards south. No pic as it was in the dark and raining. Following the rain we had snow and high wind which drifted these sets in pretty bad. That outside corner of the terrace blew clear so I put a set there and pulled the others.

I can take a wider angle shot from a distance if needed.

[trappnman]

Yesterday at 8:50pm, zagman wrote:Easy now....that's top secret stuff on the learnin' and teachin' forum! LOL

MZ

I don't know about top secret stuff- but sometimes the forest is hard to see with all the trees in the way.

on Mar 22, 2012, 1:55pm, zagman wrote:

So.....the million dollar question.
You get a new farm. Never been there before. What do you look for to find "the spot".

That's what I want to know.....

MZ

easy- first pick the right farm. If there isn't a good attraction point on that farm, with the right habitat to make it a stall out area, then the answer is again easy- move on.

and quite honestly, that's a weak point for me that I'm trying, albeit slowly and heels dragging, to give up traditional spots that aren't stall out areas, and that I just want to trap.

I also am trying, to eliminate trapping for the same coyotes- and looking at the big picture, how everything connects and what WOULD be the "main attraction" for that territory/territories-

by doing that, I can run less traps, with more coyotes. Some might ask why not then run more traps, on more areas- and my answer is simple- its how I want to do it. I like how my lines are coming together, and running the amount of traps I do, on a 5-6 day check, is working out nicely and its just refining the system.

any failure of the system on my part, is the carpenters fault, not the hammer.

picking new farms and new locations on those farms, is easier when I have no ties to any of the farmers- my only purpose there is to trap coyotes for a week, and see you next year.

So, I am very picky on my new locations- I look for surrounding habitat, I look for BIG operations with lots and lots of cows, and I look for farms that allow me to set, more or less, where I need to. Oddly, I find the bigger the farm, the less restrictions on where I go and what I do, plus the number of domestics drops substantially. In 3 years of setting by buildings and barns, I've never caught a dog at them.

look at it like this- in a town with streetlights and other lights all over, the amount of insects buzzing around each will be small- but have one light out in the country, and every bug in the area will be there

so if the farm has potential, I ask. and when I ask, I also ask about what he knows, concerning the coyotes on his farm.

I'm not 100% successful, but by gosh when I am, is it pretty to see- so its in a way, boom or bust- either I choose wrong and do little, or if right I get 5-7 coyotes out of a couple traps.

Some might ask, why not set more traps at those hot spots, and I did this year- but one problem of the bigger farms, is that places to put traps AT the location I want, seem to be minimal due to every inch of the land being used, and many times I crowd 2 sets in, and that's about all I can do.

FYI- this year, we made a real effort to always have in 1 clean set that has not taken a coyote (possums, skunks, etc so be it) and I caught so few at the new set, compared to the continued catches, that it doesn't seem worth the effort. Either my coyotes are very stupid and work remakes readily, or I make a remake set that appeals to them.

Everyone that has trapped more than a few coyotes, has found THE spot- tracks, scat everywhere, obvious sign of coyotes coming to an area, and spending time in that area. And more often than not, setting that location confirms that.

I always read about coyotes taking 3-5 days to work a set. Assuming your set is such it's not going to put off coyotes, then there is no reason, if you are on location, that you shouldn't be getting those coyotes the first night. My best days are day 1,2 and 3- then after that, I get those"maybe locations" to start giving me a coyote or two.

Yodog- you really need to read or reread threads in archives etc concerning "come to spots". Its the basis of all these coyote discussions over the past few years concerning locations.

look at it this way- coyotes travel, correct? and travel ways can be productive- but scads of research show how coyotes work stimuli in various scenarios, and it all comes down to this:

in stallout locations, coyotes are going to be in a different mindset than they are travel ling. So at a stall out area, you chances of catching him improve drastically, and if you are in a stallout from several groups of coyotes, your chances go up even higher.

[Zagman]

well, since the moderators here posted quotes of mine from the past OR that I deleted, guess I can respond LOL! This place is great!

That second quote is no longer in context.....it was a question from a post where Tman was saying he NOW only sets "the spot", yet struggled with telling us all how to find the spot. It was just that simple.

You set 100% of these areas/spots yet can't put into words what/how/etc.? So, I then asked that question above.....

In the end, I have accepted that you are setting the same spots we all have.....and your pictures continue to demonstrate that......multiple travel lanes, dead piles, points of interest, etc. And where a lot of these come together, so much the better.

MZ

[trappnman]

mark, many times you have pulled up quotes from me from posts you have saved that had been deleted or were from years ago.
I never cried foul, did I?

Tman was saying he NOW only sets "the spot", yet struggled with telling us all how to find the spot. It was just that simple.

You set 100% of these areas/spots yet can't put into words what/how/etc.? So, I then asked that question above.....



Mark, thats inacurrate. I have never said ever that I set 100% of those locations. EVER. In any thread or in any post or in any pm or in any verbal conversation. I've just never said that , or close to that, or implied that What I have said, includng in an earlier post on this thread- is that I TRY and its boom or bust- either I nail it- or I don't and that any failure on my part, was my fault, not the systems fault.

yes, I struggle to find the spots. I TRY to find those spots- why? because I know that they exist- in past 3 years I took 350 coyotes or so all while using 40% less traps, at less locations.

my goal, is to eventually, be setting up 100% on such locations- I'll run even less traps, and catch more coyotes-
------------------------
your conclusion is we are all setting the same spots- and not to bust yout balls but to trying to get it in context-

bottomline, you disagree with "the spot" concept, and believe that any location with coyote sign, is equal to any other (generally of course, not 100% literal) as far as choosing a spot to set up.

that the mindset of a coyote (which after all is the crux of where the spot will occur and why to seek it out) whether travelling or loafing or hunting is inmaterial? that flat sets, post sets, dirtholes are all the same to an average coyote? And that where that set it, is also realitively unimportant?.

Is that fair summation? that setting a "come to " area compared o a "go through" area is relatively unimportant?

1080s Indiana thing convinced me to try it- my results here confirmed it.

heres a question for you- you have posted, and if I quote you wrong please advise- that many times you have coyotes circling your dirtholes, and you catch them in your grass clipping sets nearby.

why do you think they are avoiding the open sets, and working the subtle sets?

do you think that would be reversed in another location (same coyotes)?

[Zagman]

your system, new to you, is location 101.....available in every beginners book on canine trapping since the start of time.....don't over complicate it.

MZ

[trappnman]

ok

[musher]

Whoa! Utter disappointment here. "don't over complicate it" and "o.k"!!! A bit of a let down.

I was hoping to find out what makes something a "point of interest" or a "multiple travel lanes."

There IS a reason. I thought that Steve's second last post was pretty good and it is something I try to do. Less traps for more fur due to location.

So don't stop! Argue a little. I might learn something!

Thanks.

[thorsmightyhammer]

Less traps for more fur is a good idea Musher but if one has daylight left why not set more.

Wouldnt it stand to reason there is only so many perfect spots.

[musher]

When I say less traps for more fur I'm referring to a catch ratio. If by setting less traps you lower your costs but you still catch more fur, it's a good thing.

There's no point in setting a trap where you know the odds of a catch are nil or when cost will give you a financial loss.

I agree with the perfect spots but that just means you need more ground to cover so you can get more of those spots.

Any perfect spot I've found, for any species, never seems to last. Sure they last a while (or they wouldn't be perfect spots) but something always happens and they go dry. My latest one was a fox location. It was good for 1 to 3 fox every season for the past 25 years or so. This year zero with a line through it.

I haven't a clue as to why except for the obvious "there weren't any fox there."

With wolves it's easy to explain why the prefect spot disappears. The pack changed. But with other fur bearers things are not so simple. Unless there is something obvious, like logging, what makes a good location suddenly not good?

That's why the "come to" and "go through" stuff interests me. If the "come to" perfect spot is suddenly not so perfect then the "go through" might still be great as the animals use it to get to the new perfect spot.

[Zagman]

I will do the honorable thing and not go any further with this.....we did get into this discussion pretty good last winter....I'd assume that quote of mine from March would have been pulled from that post.

Agree to disagree, I guess....


MZ

[bogio]

Not trying to throw gas on the fire here. While I have locations that produce several coyotes, they don't do it in only 5,6,7 checks. They require a much longer effort. They are good locations, but they are not the primo locations. Zagman, are you staying very short times at each location, rotating out the way Tman is advocating?

[thorsmightyhammer]

Agreed Musher, but if you are driving by a spot and have more time, why not set it?

Setting less traps to increase your ratio may lower costs but I'd counter not enough to offset the potential revenue.

Seriously for us in the lower 48 with roads pretty much everywhere one 25 dollar coyote will pay for a lot of extra mileage.

[musher]

If I'm driving in front of it I will set it. I'll even go a few minutes out of my way if snow isn't coming soon.

[trappnman]

you nailed it bogio- its taking those animals running and gunning, something in ever even considered in coyote trapping. note what I said earier- on the correct locations, I'm hitting them day 1,2,3- THEN those marginal here comes a coyote location give me a coyote or two

it isnt tending the trap thats the issue- its wasting time and effort on a possible coyote vs trying to, as a multi year goal and not instant gratification, to eliminate all locations but THE locations- I'd rather take my coyotes with half the traps, than set 2xs as many, for the same amount of coyotes. What you need to understand is that the TIME and DISTANCE would be the same if I set whether 50 traps, or 100 traps. the stated goal of "the system" is to NOT check empty traps. if numbers of traps were important to me, I could set up every farm like cordwood, one after the other- but thats NOT my goal-

I HATE empty traps- and setting and tending empty sucks- esp if you need to leave them in for a long time to connect.

[trappincoyotes39]

Bowen & Wells)Coyotes scent-mark more frequently at territorial boundaries or areas of high intrusion.Analysis shows Coyotes scent mark about every 150yds while traveling and consequently coyote may encounter a recent scent mark every 3 min at their normal rate of travel

;D


THis is a good read:

www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/cdcg/pubs/Nealeetal2007.pdf

[thorsmightyhammer]

Instant gratification pays the bills.

I could give a nuts about percentages. Its the total that matters.

If time is limited I agree 1080.

[Zagman]

Regarding "circling", I have said that my downwind "sleeper" set found by my dogs is a very natural offering to a coyote IF he circles, stalls out, slows down, demonstrates neophobic reaction to my big, gnarly, wasn't- there-yesterday dirthole with a myriad of unusual odors coming from it.....OR OR even if NOT circling, if I play the wind, the target animal will be going by the sleeper first on his way into the louder offering. In sod ground, hard to tell what actually happened......or in the case of NO catch, what also might have happened.

You have said you don't get circling, or avoidance so no need for what I do with my dogs and grass tufts....but how do you know in no-snow situations?

On the snow trapping thread, you say the opposite:

On one hand, I believe coyotes DO do the same things on bare ground as on snow, regarding how the approach & work sets, how the react to certain stimuli, etc. But on the other hand, God damn can snow coyotes be hard to trap!

I had an experience once that I'd like to share again. I was checking water traps on a 24 with about a foot of snow on the ground. I walked the same path back along the creek every day, on the edge of a cornfield and a tree belt at the creek. Ever day it seemed, fresh coyote traps walked down the trail on top of my tracks. The trail passed by a big tree, and this was before we got snaring, and I thought how easy to snare, I'd just put a stick here (on other side of trail) and bobs your uncle. I put the stick in just for fun. The next day, the coyote trail followed my path, til the tree/stick point, went around it and came back to trail on other side. Rest of time, they ALWAYS walked this new trail, forever avoiding the stick/tree route.

so thing of that- placing one stick- changed their routine

so heavens knows what all your sign and visual activity on the snow does to their innate behaviors of caution, etc

*****************************************************

I can't poo-poo your "system" vs. mine.....when pressed for specifics, the detail you give us is not enough to make a comparison...but what you DO share seems consistent with what I seek......regarding coyote trap locations.

To Bogio's question: The run and gun you now do Tman is what I have been doing for a long time...you often quote my "fresh faces, fresh places" line......you used to be on a farm for 2 weeks or more and struggled with that concept vs. the 5-6-7 days and out.......so this change with Tman's line is certainly in line with what I do, Bogio.

I was being flippant when saying this is location 101 and not to over complicate it....but Tman when you try to explain what you are looking for, well, it sounds pretty basic to me, and thus, discounted it to being location 101......

My point.....I am a pretty logical guy, but see no sense in a back and forth between two "systems" when I don't know what yours is due to the fact that you won't be specific, won't share "hard found" info OR can't put it into words.....and again, what you DO share seems like things all good coyote trappers already look for......

Percentages are only a personal thing IMO......no one but the individual trapper cares about anyone's catch ratio percentage......

At the end of the day.....if I catch 10 coyotes out of 100 traps and you catch 3 coyotes out of 20 traps......who cares? Steven49er said it best last year when he said was all that matters is how many we drag to the fur buyer.

Guys make posts about catching 100 coyotes, or 500 coon, or 250 beaver, or 3000 rats.......no one makes a post saying: Hey, I ran a 25% catch ratio this year, with the ensuing "CONGRATS"

Your loops are bigger than ever....so you are driving the 150 miles and spending the time......so what is the benefit of a better catch ratio if the gas and time you spend is relatively similar?

Or, if you are not going to spend the extra time setting even MORE traps on more coyotes?

Kinda like having a three-day check but not using those other two days to run separate lines......

I had an 18-coyote day this year and a 16-coyote day...on a 24 hour check. Sure, I loved the percentages those days compared to others, but you know what? I remember the number of coyotes I caught, and already forgot the percentages.

The weather moved them and I was plum tickled to have enough traps in the ground to catch the ones that I did..... . If I'd had half as many traps in as I did, I'd reckon I wouldn't have caught as many!

I have limited time to trap each year.....I get hung up more on number of days spent trapping than on daily catch ratio. Doesn't mean I can't improve.....but, I'll sum it up like this:

If I catch 100 coyotes in 14 days running 100 traps a day and you catch 100 coyotes in 4-5 weeks running 50 traps, I think I'm ahead on time spent/hours, fuel, costs, etc.

Maybe not? Just the way I look at it I guess.

MZ

[thorsmightyhammer]

I didnt mention instant gratification first Tman did.

I agree 100 percent on taking htem faster if you have the locations to do so.

But what should a newbie to the "spot" system do when he runs out of spots? Call it a day?

Hell no, set more traps.

Also dont misinterpret me, I'm not very enthralled with coyotes but some of this discussion is pertinent in all that we do and how we operate on a daily basis.

I always like reading your posts Mark.

[trappnman]

Hey, I ran a 25% catch ratio this year, with the ensuing "CONGRATS

congrats 1080

isn't that the whole point? to have that 25% catch ratio, rather than a lesser number? and the way to achieve that, is to not set traps at every interestion, every possible spot?

and I'll repeat, time and distance. Unfortunately, setting up a coyote line, is NOT like setting up a rat or beaverline

why set 20 traps for one group of coyotes in 10 locations? the whole concept, the whole plan, the whole enchlada is just that-

I really don't know whats so hard to understand, about time and distance vs number of traps- I guess if that part is not understood, then much else follows.

its not how good are you doing- its how good could you do.

why on earth, should anyone give you (or me) any of their hard earned work for free- just "here ya go"

instant gratification I guess

the clues are there, God knows the clues are there- if it takes me a few years to partially understand someone elses lifetime 365/24/7 work on studiyng and learning, I guess I can live with that

[thorsmightyhammer]

Jan 13, 2013 16:38:42 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I don;t really know, what is hard to understand, about time and distance-
but it does seem to be something impossible to grasp

Huh?