Midwest coyotes

[trappnman]

keep in mind I know the basics of what I'm looking for, but being able to always find it, is not always the case.

and I have a hard time, not trapping a place that does have some coyotes if I've previously stopped and gained permisison.

as such, I still set locations that I should pass by- grant you, I'm not going out of my way for them, but.....

1080 has summed up what he has been trying to get me to understand- and I do, believe I do-

If you haven`t already digested what I just said in the previous post than consider this.As it relates to TRAPS.

Territory Overlap and Communal location Exist.Traveling coyotes are often hard to stop,hunting coyotes easier to catch.
There are spots coyotes come to,different than travel by.Setting a trap anywhere will not catch Most coyotes.Throwing a carcass or a bait anywhere will oftentimes get refused/avoided.Coyotes have tendancies and traits.Learn them
There are reasons some sets get avoided,others worked freely.Not every coyote will be taken with the steel trap,Unless you have the time.
Old old saying,point of entry point of exit,figure out who originally said it and what was meant by it(goes back a looong time)

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what he hasn't done, and won't do- and I fault him not for that- is tell us HOW to find that "spot" and what to look for.

but he has given several key pieces of information and also provided much research material that again, provides info insofar as coyote behaviors and interactions.

For ME- a stall out area is close to where they want to be, it's used by multiple groups (this is hard for me to determine, yet the pathway- seeking out dens, howling is clear), and its in a location where coyotes feel safe enough to mill around, lay around, etc.

I do have some clues to multiple groups: farmers reports, sign I see at various locations vis a vis the attraction point (sheep, deadpile, water, etc) & of course previous year results ie adults, pups, etc.

but I still am new at picking out the spot- and I still go by physical characteriscs ie what my successful multiple group areas feature more thna I should- often becasue I can't find "the spot".

I'm learning & refining as I go. some lines, I feel fairly confident I'm on or close to the spot more oft than not- yet in other places I'm baffled (and the answer might be no coyotes, or the answer might be "there".

I remember talking to ole Wiley E many moons ago concerning stall out areas- and he stated look for reoccurring sign. Look for evidence of tracks coming and going in several directions, look for scat, and the scat should show age progression (meaning there in successive nights, rather that isolated). Look for kickbacks, rolling places, bits of bone, feather, etc. All mean multiple coyotes that stayed at that location for more than a pause on their travels.

I understood stall out spots- but didn't understand the different behaviorial mindsets that coyotes have, and didn't understand that while I might have access to most of those coyotes using the stallout spot via their travelways, that WHERE I set was as important than HOW I set.

and also There are spots coyotes come to,different than travel by

[blackhammer]

You mention cattle. Is heavily grazed pasture an attraction simply because coyotes like hanging out in the golf course like, grazed down habitat? It's a nice place to loaf around and do what coyotes do? At least in this hill country were I am.Where your pastures are on the ridges on the marginal farming land surrounded by corn and heavy woods and brush.

[tripleex]

You guys that are keen on coyotes, is there any common features that account for a high percentage of territory boundaries in cropland/midwest?
Hope that question makes sense.

[trappnman]

blackhammer- I set near cows, because it seems like coyotes are always hanging around cows, and much of that, I'm sure, is do to the farming operations around cows here.

[ChrisM]

Territory Overlap and Communal location Exist.Traveling coyotes are often hard to stop,hunting coyotes easier to catch.
There are spots coyotes come to,different than travel by.Setting a trap anywhere will not catch Most coyotes.Throwing a carcass or a bait anywhere will oftentimes get refused/avoided.Coyotes have tendancies and traits.Learn them
There are reasons some sets get avoided,others worked freely.Not every coyote will be taken with the steel trap,Unless you have the time.
Old old saying,point of entry point of exit,figure out who originally said it and what was meant by it(goes back a looong time)

Lots of knowledge and experience in that paragraph

Triplex... roads, creeks, streams.

Stall out locations are not always places "coyotes come to"... far from it.

[blackhammer]

Thanks for sharing. lol

[trappnman]

Chris- you said this-

"roads, creeks, streams.
Stall out locations are not always places "coyotes come to"... far from it."

I agree completely with boundaries being stall out locations, if I'm correct in your point. And of course at an "edge" even like a road, coyotes would stall out.

but isn't the point not so much a location being a stall out point, but rather the mindset of the coyote at that point?

I know the damn stove is hot- but consider this:

If insteads of calling "the spot" a stall out area, perhaps the term "layup area" mighht be more appropriate.

After all, this is all coming together in advance of an attraction.

[bogio]

Is too much emphasis being given to simply identifying stall out areas? While they are an important part of setting/determining the coyotes state of mind, are all stall out locations equal in regards to being the spot? I'm assuming stall outs occur throughout a coyotes range, the ones that concern us most are those that lay in overlap areas, correct? If sign reading is used to identify a stall out, what is used to seperate the good from the even better? Shear volume of sign?

[ChrisM]

"Roads creeks and streames".... was in reference to Tripless's question regarding common features that account for a high percentage of territory boundaries in cropland/midwest?

Lay-ups vs stall out.....Everyone has their own terminology, and obviously, coyotes will stall out at a lay up areas, but for me, lay-up areas and stall out areas are not the same thing. .

As stated by others traveling coyotes can be difficult to attract/stop/catch ect.. However, all along a coyotes normal travels he will encounter locations where he is prone to stall out. Saddles, gates in fence lines, brushy clump in a fence line, the end of a weedy fence line, stock dams, intersection of two tracks and four corners of fences, a lone tree or clump of tall brush off the trail a bit. None of these would be very attractive as a "lay-up" area but would cetainly cause a coyte to stall out for a bit, take a pee or crap, nose around a bit etc... At this point he is much more vunerable to a set than when just scootin down your sandy trail or two track.

To me... lay-up areas are places where coyotes will spend considrable time, bed down for the day, spend a good deal of time hunting etc... Thse can take many formes depending on the region you are in. Shelterbelts, CRP, Brush/grassy draws or drainages, Corn fields (in the summer) Cut milo and wheat fields in the fall/winter. Slews, cattails, badland knobs, rough set of hills etc..

1080's third video..the grassy patch that he baited up, where he has the double. He created and/or enhanced a stall out, not a lay up IMO

Chicken or the egg? IMO, the location is the key. The location creates/triggers the mind set. Natural stall out areas tend to remain very consistent from one coyote to the next.

[trappnman]

I agree that lay up areas are different from stall out areas-

but aren't all lay out areas, stall out areas?

I know we are getting semantically out there- but I'm not referring to hunting aeras, bed up areas, etc as lay up aeras-

although they would be, but not in accurdance with what I'm trying to convey- and thats areas that are where most if not all coyotes, will stop/be/mill around in conjuction with attraction hot points.

take the 30 cow study- would there not be "spots" where coyotes coming to that draw, that would be a transition spot from travelling, to being there?

in other words- would they travel (from wherever) non stop directly to/onto the attraction (ie bait, dead pile,s compost piles, etc) or would there be transition spots- and wouldn't those transition spots if one had the knowledge, be easy to determine based on envirnment surrounding the attraction point, direction of travel, etc?

I can go to a mink stream, and tell you- thats the spot. I can kinda tell you why, but more so, I just know.

In coyotes, I'm at the point where I can kinda determine why...when I do, the reuslts speak for thmeselves- when I don't. sadly the results also speak

I think another criteria for the spot is simply this- its the spot TODAY

[seldom]

Jul 26, 2012 13:51:03 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I agree that lay up areas are different from stall out areas-

but aren't all lay out areas, stall out areas?

I know we are getting semantically out there- but I'm not referring to hunting aeras, bed up areas, etc as lay up aeras-

although they would be, but not in accurdance with what I'm trying to convey- and thats areas that are where most if not all coyotes, will stop/be/mill around in conjuction with attraction hot points.

take the 30 cow study- would there not be "spots" where coyotes coming to that draw, that would be a transition spot from travelling, to being there?

in other words- would they travel (from wherever) non stop directly to/onto the attraction (ie bait, dead pile,s compost piles, etc) or would there be transition spots- and wouldn't those transition spots if one had the knowledge, be easy to determine based on envirnment surrounding the attraction point, direction of travel, etc?

I can go to a mink stream, and tell you- thats the spot. I can kinda tell you why, but more so, I just know.

In coyotes, I'm at the point where I can kinda determine why...when I do, the reuslts speak for thmeselves- when I don't. sadly the results also speak

I think another criteria for the spot is simply this- its the spot TODAY

I don't know if you're specifically addressing your question to Chris and I don't want to encroach but I know there certainly are. BUT, the majority of the coyotes enroute to the SPOT aren't using the same travel route. So sure, you can as I have set the stall-outs of the individual groups but the point is to set where the majority of coyote "groups"(my term) will be. Just like the diagram in tne study, all groups used a route - their route to get to the dead pile

We all have examples such as 1080's videos and I have one that is exactly as you describe. A large working sand pit, 1/3 mile long and 300yds wide with a truck road around the perimeter that is graded daily and tne pit is flooded. The pit is alive in tne fall with waterfowl and once it freezes over the deer love to be on it. By the way, the pit is surrounded by woods, swale brush, marshes, slash, and tagalder swamps for several miles in every direction.

Each year that I've been able to trap this property there are three family groups of coyote that work this pit from three different directions during those months of prey. These groups each have stall-outs onto themselves BEFORE approaching the pit to hunt. I literally set each group at that group's stall-out. When those have been caught, there are no more using that stall-out until long after I'm done. This is not how I perceive 1080 would recommend though but it fits your description to a T.

[ChrisM]

"the majority of the coyotes enroute to the SPOT aren't using the same travel route."

My experience mirrors Seldom's.

I dont have any 30 cow study but I have worked lots of dead cows in the winter and have observed many dead cows from the plane, being fed upon with snow cover. Not uncommon to take 12 to 20 coyotes out of the immediate area. What Ive seen is groups of three to six coming from different directions to the carcass. These groups will be scattered out around the cow anywhere from several hundred yards to half a mile or more. Each in their own groups, separated from the others. They seem to take turns going to the cow and feeding. Almost like a temporary truce in the territorial battles so that all can share in a feast during a tuff winter.

[bogio]

Seldom,

What leads you to trap the coyotes in your example at the three individiual stall outs as opposed to a common stall out at the hunting area? Is it due to it being a working pit and as such to much activity to deal with?

ChrisM,

In working the dead cows with multiple groups of coyotes, if trapping them, do you use an individual group approach or set on them as a single combined group?

[seldom]

Jul 26, 2012 21:52:07 GMT -6 bogio said:

Seldom,

What leads you to trap the coyotes in your example at the three individiual stall outs as opposed to a common stall out at the hunting area? Is it due to it being a working pit and as such to much activity to deal with??

Sign both during the fall and after hard water showed me how each group of coyote hunted the pit. Seldom did any members actually cross the pit on the ice. Rather they'd each follow a pattern of leaving their stall-outs just inside(at the edge) the treeline, cross the truck road, drop down and depending on the season, hunt the cattails. The pit than became the end of a loop for the groups because they each had a repeated and favored exit which did not contain a stall-out. Once they decided to leave the pit area they, as has been said, we're in traveling mode. Also, though they exited using a route, the route quickly spread out, pretty much the opposite as when they'd leave the entrance stall-out.

Two groups used old logging trails through slash and one group used a 20' high cut-hill that the road went through as stall-outs. Interestingly, the hill-top group of three males(leader was huge) were repeatedly caught on a bow hunters cameras after they crossed the road and hunted the pit edge. Their social structure while hunting was repeatable from what the hunter told me.

To answer your question, there was no one SPOT around that size of pit where the three groups would all visit while hunting, even on ice, though the group's sign showed an overlapping. The backhoe operator who works the pit 5-6 days a week year-round told me how with ice on and snow cover, he'd watch coyote come during the daytime, cross the road and stand on the top edge overlooking tne pit a quick second and turn and leave. He said he might see this a couple times a day in late winter/early spring before thaw. He also told of during a 5 year span watching deer on the ice with broken pelvis killed by coyotes. Usually 2-3 would be in the killing group he said.

[bogio]

Thank you seldom and 1080,

Those responses cleared up a question which has been causing me considerable cerebral discomfort.

[seldom]

Jul 27, 2012 0:18:19 GMT -6 1080 said:

Jul 26, 2012 14:44:04 GMT -6 ChrisM said:

This is not how I perceive 1080 would recommend though but it fits your description to a T


You got your coyotes right ?

I have 10 days in Indiana.
It`s all about % and Efficiency for us.The clock ticks!

You better believe it, at each of the three stall-outs.

1st of 3 hill-toppers-


2 of a triple(3rd around corner, impossible to get in same pic) taken from a stall-out directly across the pit from where I caught the 3 hill-toppers. Closest coyote in photo is about 6' off the truck road I'm standing on-


The pit, end-end.



Across far end and vantage point of backhoe operator.

[trappnman]

I think that the semantics of what we are looking for has been debated to death- we are looking for areas that several groups of coyotes use regularly, and locations in which their behaviors are such to put them into a mindset to work the sets.

and I guess we have covered whether such areas are worth seeking out- what convinced me that they are (and yes I'm new to this only been in this mindset last couple of years) is not so much communal coyotes, but more importantly, for me, is the willingness to work sets- and if you feel that you are taking the same ones via all travelways, then you do.

1080 convinced me of this: while I might be encountering all the coyotes at various travelways, their reactions towards working sets, is completely different than in other places.

and that by trying to be on those locations, you can get in and out quickly. 4 years ago, I'd have shudderd leaving traps out for less than week on not only some, but all my locations because I was convinced one needed to wait for the coyotes.

anyone can do anything anyway they wish to, but I'm more than convinced by my experiences so far that while attractions usually attract, you want a big crowd have a big tent.

The question now, at least for me is to understand better what causes those areas, where are those areas & how to pinpoint those areas.

chris- one point of the 30 cow study, is how the amount of bait in an area, affects behavior.

the majority of the coyotes enroute to the SPOT aren't using the same travel route."

isn't that the point of setting "the spot"

[Zagman]

Good thing "THE SPOT" or "SPOTS" are always conveniently located near a spot we can drive our trucks to, or we wouldn't be very productive or catch many coyotes.

MZ

[trappnman]

mark- I'm pretty much like you- I can drive pretty much anywhere on any farm I trap- with strip crops, lots of field roads, and with beans, hay and chopped corn, the fields are mine as well.

[seldom]

Jul 27, 2012 8:00:33 GMT -6 Zagman said:

Good thing "THE SPOT" or "SPOTS" are always conveniently located near a spot we can drive our trucks to, or we wouldn't be very productive or catch many coyotes.

MZ

Mark, are you using the Ski Doo you mentioned some time ago? The accessibility issue is why I bought the Tundra for this year. I have way too many areas that are inaccessible even with my 4x4 after deer season.