Midwest coyotes

[bogio]

Here's my example of that coyote mindset.

North/south county road Ts into an east/west road. Continuing south of this T is my access field road. It runs about 3/4m south through mixed corn/bean/hay ground with a large timbered drainage at the half way point running from the road to the east.

At 1/4m in is a T intersection running east out to the next county road (close to a mile). One set placed here took 2 coyotes passing by it.

At 1/2 mile is the spot my boy Virlin said was it, passing the head of the drainage. He would pee/poop/roll/kickback and just have a general helll of good time there. One set there took 1 possum.

60 yards pass this was where I thought it looked best. Little jag in the road where it once passed through a fence that was long gone. Put 2 sets here as I felt good about it and took 9 coyotes. Snow showed them cruising by the other spots regularly but going right into what I am assuming was "THE SPOT".

[trappincoyotes39]

Bogio for years I was trapping the same ranches to keep the sifitng of coyotes low around sheepmen and early spring calvers and a few fall calvers as well.

I guess my mind set was different due to ADC versus maximum take in a peoriod of time.

It can work either way if I have 10 spots that are good for 10-15 coyotes per spot trap it 10 days that is 100-150 coyotes for 10 days. Or I could move sooner and hit new coyotes quicker. Alot will depend on density and permission one has. You can't keep moving if you don't have the permission lined up.

Tman those coyotes have to get to the "spot" correct? So you still have to find those spokes or travel lanes which will sift the majority to the spot. By looking at the lay of the land and terrian/ cover one can knock out alot of ground in a hurry as not ideal for the spot to be.

Case in point this area I talk of down this way, I see coyotes by the hwy alot of times I could set there and pick them up willy nilly or I can go down to the major travel corridor and find the spot and set less traps and cover less ground for the same amount and probably a few more coyotes than setting on the other 3-5 spokes or hunting lanes. By adding to that spot we can make it even better at times.

[trappnman]

yes they have to get to the spot-

when you drive to work each day- does your mind react the same, on all stretches of that road over the entire distance driven? or do you think with a different mindset, depending on where you are on that route?

if you work at a plant with 100 people- all those people, take a multitude of different travel routes to that plant- until they get to within a short distance of it. and all those people, are thinking all kinds of thoughts, until they get close to their goal- in this case work.

when the goal is near or in sight- mind processes change.

one thing I observed, ratified my own thoughts- I'll draw you no conclusions, but simply tell the story:

was trapping gophers, and had just walked up to my truck, when I saw a singleton coyote walking across the ridge, maybe 100 yards from me, and completely unaware I was there. I watched him for a bit, then dropped my trowel into the truck to see what he did-

immediately, without a glance, second look or hesitation- the sec that trowel hit the truck bed he was gone- BANG!

just dropped out of sight over the ridge on the opposite side.

now compare that reaction to the reaction of a deer, etc in the same scenario.

[trappincoyotes39]

so your scenario was that a coyote is far more spooky than a deer?

That depends on where your at and what that sound means, as I have stated a good friend that takes bee's out to california every January watches coyotes out there compaired to SD and say's there migrant workers working mean little to them and in fact at times comotion means a food source.

He would call and they would come within 250-300 yrds of him in plain sight with people working the almond fields.

Conditioning plays a big roll.

Do the same thing to that deer after 1 week of being shot at and see if the reaction is the same or not?

[trappnman]

"so your scenario was that a coyote is far more spooky than a deer?"

no- here, coyotes regular follow manure wagons as they spread manure, and also work the edges of fields as they combine corn.

and they also, regularly, come into farmyards, feedlots, pens.

let me ask you this- if you see coyote tracks around the back door of a farmers house, and he visits regularly- would setting by that back door, be "the spot"

if not- why not?

[trappnman]

Iv'e seen many, many many deer during hunting season on a stand- what do they do, when they first become aware of possible danger- whats their FIRST reaction, compared to that coyote?

the moral of the story has nothing to do with deer per se- if you want another comparison animal- look to the crow.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman where are you going? If I wanted to catch the coyote at the back door I would set it, if I wanted to catch multiple coyotes at a location then I wouldn't. Knowing how I love to trap coyotes heck I would set the back yard and the farmer/rancher could check the trap for me.

Your zen line of thought is leading to what?

As far as your deer hypothosis is the big ones don't get big being dumb same as young coyotes don't last long in the fall, their under condtioned nature see's to it they die first in areas of high persicution.

Best calling time is Sept and first of October you have plenty of coyotes tripping over each other to get to the rabbitt blues, even ma and pa want to beat the kids to the punch and makes it a frenzy that sure is fun for the caller or trapper.

Many of your fall doubles and triples will be those litter mate coyotes.

Many mature whitetail bucks most people don't ever get to see, as little pressure and they become nocturnal a game camera can show you much of what is missing on large whitetail deer. I know plenty of people who have some light footage of real big deer and then pressure comes and there day light pictures all come under the darkness of night as the pressure mounts.

Trying to compair the two is of little value really IMO.

[trappnman]

TC- I think your experience with whitetails, is pretty low insofar as observing them, when they become aware of you IN THE WOODS, not along highways or in bale stacks.

Because the thing that happens almost if not 100% of the time- is they LOOK at you, often they cock their ears, and flare their nostrils. niow I'm not saying they stand there and continue doing so- but I'm saying that they want to know whats spooking them, before reacting.

now- if you don't see the point, then I've done maybe not all I can do, but all I am going to do, in making it.

as far as "zen thinking"- I guess to some, anything beyond setting on tracks bcasue there are tracks, is out of the box thinking.

so be it- I've been accused of worse.........

[trappincoyotes39]

sure deer are curious but not the big ones curious deer or coyotes neither last long! I think that was your point right? The coyote reacts quicker to stimuli either positive or negative correct?

Well again all depends where your at and other factors like age groups and the rest. To state coyotes are less curious I buy that! Big racked old deer don't do as you state neither. I have sat for hours in tower blinds and watched deer interactions but it has little to do with coyotes.

A coyote doesn;t always turn tail and high tail it. I once watched 5 coyotes use terrian alone to weave in and out a group of 7 deer hunters in a wheat field and all of them crossed a gravel road undetected. They didn't panic they used the terrian to there advantage. Quite neat to watch, the benefits of the open plains and a high knob with good optics.

They all ended up down in the drainage I had snares in. Yep that thing called the major travel way and also the spot! Funnel and a great place to hammer quite a few coyotes in. The end of that funnel was a 180 acres of p -dogs and other prey. The place for many coyotes to move through this area 3 miles N-S and 5 miles W-E.

Snares in the funnel and traps along the buck brush row next to the dog town , a spot they could look and survey the dog town on a slight knoll. Plenty of tracks of different size and plenty of scat to boot.

[trappincoyotes39]

Numbers mean little, but I took 26 coyotes out of that area.

[trappnman]

big racked deer do exactly what I stated- I've got 4 hanging on the wall, and too many others to count not hanging on the wall- those, are ones that I saw, middle of hunting season in public well hunted land, looking at me before I was looking at them. and keep in mind not looking "AT ME"- but looking in my direction, doing exactly what I said they did.

I have no doubt the coyotes you observed, did just that.

whats the difference in my observation? what key point are you overlooking?

as far as the 26- pays to set the spot, don;t it?

[trappincoyotes39]

tman a few can make mistakes and I'm not talking 130 or 140 class deer I'm talking true giants 170 and above in areas of heavy pressure.

Try a trail camera in your areas and see what pops up on them at night! You might just be surprised. I;m not the deer guru but have killed my share, this is comming from guys I know that put in alot of time chasing them, hard core deer hunters. They spend tons of hours of preperation in pursuit of something other than the ordinary .

Nocturnal large deer call for different tatics but that is not what the majority of the orange brigade do. They sight in a week before deer season fill their doe tags and look for a "decent" buck to shoot. The prep time and goal is far different. The thing remotely close to the avg coyote trapper is the majority are doing the same thing. Catching avg coyotes .

Otherwise deer and coyotes are apple and oranges.

Now lets get back to the "spot" talk.

[trappnman]

TC if I say black, you have to say white.....

all the horns I got hanging, are 170 and more the best is 22" across the tips, a 10 pt

I hunted whitetails with a shotgun from a stand for over 50 years, all but 3 on heavily hunted public land. I've done my due diligence and will bow to no one on the habits and patterns of SE mn whitetails. But thats neither here nor there.

you can talk trail cams and whatever that have absolutely positively no bearing on the point I introduced.

so let me make it perfectly clear- whitetail deer, when encountering something unknown- do NOT flee within a nano second of being aware of an unknown.

What they do, is to STOP. look, listen and smell. Thats a fact 99% of the time. I say this after observing 100s of deer in that exact scenario.

We all have had an experience if having done much whitetail hunting- of slowly scanning the woods, and seeing a big buck frozen, ears cocked, looking right "at" you or rather where he knows something is- either by sight or hearing a sound I made, but he knows something is "not right"

and we all know, that the minute we blink an eyelash let alone bring up the gun- he's gone.

but he didn't go, until he knew.

and that was on full alert- after all- its hunting season.

now take that coyote I mentioned- summer morning- zero humans around, territory miles away from farms, at least a mile or more from the road...

and at an unknown- he DID NOT HESITATE. He reacted immediately, without question.

now, in an attempt to further clarify, I'll ask a question- why was that coyote able to react instantly? And how does that relate to set interaction?

you might have to put on your Zen hat to answer that........

but for me, the answer to the question- is THE important factor in why THE SPOT is so key.

btw- travelways can be, in my ace opinion, the SPOT. I have several I consider just that. but travelways in and of themselves, are not, again in my opinion.

I'll again go back to that sand road- for sure it was a travelway, one heavily used- I am out on that farm 40 days a year or more, walking and driving that road, 3-4 days at a time from april to oct. I've never failed to find fresh tracks, and daily while I'm there I see fresh tracks, and have gophers eaten from my traps, traps heavily covered with human scent........

yet 14-15 days of trapping in 2 tries, produced me one pup coyote.

WHY? I'm not asking cause I want to know the answer- I KNOW the answer

I've got similar locations on my new lines-

first year, some of those produced nothing, yet the sign was there.... last year changed locations on the farm, and had mixed success. Some produced better, I was either on the spot or closer to such, some remained unproductive. This year I'll try to pinpoint the spot better

so the SPOT is twofold- its where the majority of coyotes in an area will go, and its where on that location they can be caught the easiest.

1080- take a bow- you got an old dog thinking there is a better way, and I thank you for all your help. When someone consistently takes 25-30% and more nightly, I'll listen. I was feeling pretty good about my 1 in 15-17 traps.

and as far as spokes on a wheel, I caught most of my coyotes for 25 years, on just such locations.

I still set many of those up, those I've learned over the years are multiple coyote aeras.

but in my new lines, and upcoming expansion lines, I'll not waste my time looking for spokes-

[trappincoyotes39]

so let me make it perfectly clear- whitetail deer, when encountering something unknown- do NOT flee within a nano second of being aware of an unknown.

If you think ALL coyotes do then you do, but I have seen many do the opposite at times as well. Depends on many factors where are you, where are they, age class and pressure applied etc.

You can't base that off of one coyote hearing you drop metal on metal in a pickup box.

Take a dog and work a den and see how much you can get by with "some" coyotes. Calling coyotes has shown me alot that has helped with using other tools as well. It is all a learning experiance.

Agressive coyotes are easier to kill!

I can tell you of a time when we had a group of coyotes living in a flower field and had the plane come in they where out in the middle on a knob of rocks, the pilot could see them as he got close into the flowers they went. Cat and mouse as I howled in and out, finally with the plane over head I snuck in closer to the edge by some round bales called them in with the plane over head and shot them with my .243. I can tell you another time we where flying some more open ground in the summer looking for a den and the plane went off a few miles and I like to locate behind the plane in case due to cover they couldn't pin point them, I used a great sound on my caller and 3 mins or so I could see 2 coyotes comming my way I radioed the plane by the time they got back over, those coyotes where 300 yrds from my truck out in plain sight we both where waiting on the other to kill those coyotes in the end I shot one and the plane got another, the den was found due to the location they where traveling from. Easy to find once you have that travel location figured out!I have other stories like them. So they aren't all like you tend to believe. Time,place and circumstances all play into it.

Set interaction is the same time and place all have something to do with it, but not all coyotes are spooked of a fresh set either. To those young coyotes a flashy dirhole and the smells of goods is more likely to be worked than not. Again the reason I like a coyote to find something with his/her nose before their sight kicks in. The nose is a natural hunting tool and they rely on it all the time. The eyesight is far more easy to get by than the nose both good and bad experiances.

Yet a natural hole set where they are accustomed to finding such will be worked with far less so called fear than one that is out of place to begin with.

Your scenaro is this: you caught one pup because of location, locate that den and set in close and you would have had more action in a quicker amount of time, or later on after they quit using the hole find the lay up spot for that family group and hit the trails going into and out of that lay up, but gang set it!

Tman the spokes lead to the spot!!!!!!! The hub of the wheel is your spot!!!!!!!! They are connected talking the main travel corridor not the hunting spoke like you set up to catch the pup.

Not saying every spot will have 4-8 spokes but they will have to travel into and out of the spot where that all comes together is the spot. Unless there flying into your spots.

You can move the spot to your advantage some by placing larger baits, it doesn't have to always be a natural pile and many times won't be on the spot either. Some areas might have 2 spots just all depends. I had a ranch where I had coyotes on 2 spots on 1 ranch of 5,000 acres sperated by a major drainage one spot was east of the main ranch the other west between the two in a years time I caught alot of coyotes ( alot for western terms) from those 2 "spots".

Timing of the year can dictait the spot as well, like early spring calvers and where the majority of those coyotes will be. I could tell you of some bigger numbers taken off of a 10,000 acre ranch at the right times of the year. An area roughly 3 miles wide and 5.5 miles long and the numbers taken out of there and another one along a rough drainage in 9 sq miles and the amount of coyotes stacked up in their.

Take advantage of what they want or expect with your trap sets. Gang set those spots is my advice to people your' advice might differ.

[bogio]

TC,

Do you believe "THE SPOT" exists in the context that Tman and 1080 have been putting it out to us. That there are certain locations that by their nature put the coyote in the mood and more receptive to our advances, making those locations superior to all others. I ask because you stated that the spokes led to "THE SPOT", and if "THE SPOT" is all of that, why not set it rather than the travelways coming in that will lack some of that mojo.

[trappincoyotes39]

Bogio I don't know if it is my wording or what, but yes set that area spot,stall out, what ever you want to call it, but it won't jump out at you unless you look to why it is the best place to set, most need to connect the dots as to why it is what it is and how the coyotes get their in the first place!

There are locations to catch a few coyotes and then there those areas that will take the majority of the coyotes, put it all together- the hows and whys they come there and you have the best place to set. Those areas will produce quicker and offer more coyotes than others.

They still have to have a way to and from and an attraction for the majority to be there in the first place. Various reasons as to why but terrain plays into it for sure.

There is fall/winter trapping and then there is core area spring/summer trapping a differance when setting up for sure. Yet the denning areas won't be a longs ways off of those spots come fall either in many cases. There just spread out and locked in along the main spokes.

[trappnman]

ah, but I can transpose that info from 1 coyote, to all coyotes in a distinct way.

and no, you haven't addressed that issue.

not trying to change your mind, because we both know that isn't going to happen- and nothing wrong with that, I too was set in my ways and still am to a large degree.

but for discussions sake- why would a coyote be able to react as he did? what mindset, was that coyote in? and you are going to tell me- that that coyote would work a set there, the same as he would elsewhere?

because in my NSHO you are dead wrong, if that indeed is your thought. if not, as Rosanne Roseannadanna said....never mind

but that coyote, in the mindset he was in crossing that ridge, would have no interest in working a set. He is in TRAVEL/FULL ALERT mode- his senses are concentrated on possible risks and dangers, thus when something unexpected occurs, he REACTS. He is POISED & READY to react- thats where his heads at, as old hippys like 108- used ot say when they were fun people.....

If he was hunting, mosying along, would he have the SAME reactions?

(the answer to why btw)

[trappincoyotes39]

He is also an oportunist as well. No interest? None?

I have done things that many books say don't work with coyotes as have others. Never use the word never with them. Would he work a set the same as another probably not, the bottom line if he works it he is caught!

There are primary and secondary locations no doubt but I'm betting that trail on the ridge would be a great place to snare him. Bottom line is a dead coyote is an uneducated coyote.

The reaction can be varied much by the set itself as well. Big differance in putting a trap set right under their nose or off a beaten travel lane as well.

Times change things Tman no set deal, remember hearing about the fox pen in Iowa and how a certain female in the pen would dodge traps like no ones business until a pup of hers got caught, she lost her mind started barking and going crazy and worked a near by set. She was on full alert until the stimulus changed the brain. Short term memory is poor. I have called in coyotes and shot one and called in/back in the other in a few minutes time. Or called in 2-3 coyotes bang flop and the others on full alert running high tailed, with a different sound got them to stop for the shot. Quick change makes the mind react differently.

I was with Scott one morning we where working a complaint a pair in a flower field started calling and they raised hell in the field here comes pa 100 yrds bang and dead, the bitch in that field started warning barking, 2 mins later pup in distress brought her same line died 25 ft from pa. Stimulus change in a short period of time.

[trappincoyotes39]

sure you play the odds but at times trying something different sure does work. Short term memory not so good. I wouldn't say your coyote on the ridge was incapable of working a trap set right where you last saw him by any means.

Your coyote reacted from a loud noise nothing new there could have taken it as a gun shot or what ever bottom line just because he bolted didn't mean alot. Alert by nature keeps them alive, no doubt.

Hard to fear a natural odor comming from a natural set at times as well.

[trappnman]

ok