this falls muskrat market

[RdFx]

Yep when doing them on wood you gain inches and in todays grading of rats that means money!

[garman]

does it take much longer? just curious, I always put on wire, but today we have no rats to speak of where I trap.

[thorsmightyhammer]

May 22, 2011 17:50:42 GMT -6 @garman said:

does it take much longer? just curious, I always put on wire, but today we have no rats to speak of where I trap.

Gary that isnt true.

Unless you are unwilling to drive 60 to 80 miles.

I had six lakes scouted out that were that close to you would have done me a thousand rats easy if I hadnt had enough to stay home.

Still kicking myself in the azz for not hitting two of them the last ten days of february.

[kelly]

Plus the leather is usually heavier on wood.

Doesn't matter if it takes a minute or so longer-it is all about getting the most money with the longest stretch from ones rats and if you get a denser fur in the process so much the better.

[trappincoyotes39]

how you make the leather heavier by putting on wood?

Also another size larger so what does that really mean? ASre you gaining 2" or 3" of length or what?

[trappincoyotes39]

yes robert but making leather heavier or the impression of such? You don't think a skilled buyer knows what he is looking at?

I want to know the real differance in length gained wood over wire. to move up a grade you need 1.5" so how much more hain wood versus wire? How does one hide kidney marks or leather color? You don't!

Muskrats are not graded like other furs.

Many did as well in the country as those that sold on auction on rats when you figure in commision did they not?

[robertw]

"Many did as well in the country as those that sold on auction on rats when you figure in commision did they not?"

Nope. Compare their prices with what Beav got for his.

Have you ever watched them scan rats for size? Do you understand that it all depends on the shortest point of the skirt? Do you understand how rats ride up on a wire stretcher when they dry, even with clothes pins on the skirts??

Have you ever felt and compared a rat stretched on wood versus wire?? It is like coon on wood versus on wire, just is no comparison.

Leather color and kidney marks all affect quality, not size. SIZE DOES MATTER!!

[trappincoyotes39]

I'm not talking what 1 or 2 guys received I'm talking the avg over those that sold on auction.

so your saying quaility means nothing? wood is going to effect leather how exactly?

Size matters yet no one has stated the gain in wood over wire on say a 17" rat.

Also Beav stated in a strong market doesn't much matter, except the time and cost differance in the stretchers and time involved if your doing up a pile of rats.

[northof50]

In ten day we will know what is going into demand for next fall..
Every time this wood over wire gets discussed....can one of you pass me a beer, because something has to get pppppped at the end.

Each buyer wants a uniform product that he ships to his customers,,, remember that when selling.

[trappincoyotes39]

ok so your stating you gain 1.5" on wood over wire, good enough then.

Color in some species means far more than others agreed?

Good night Robert I have coyotes to kill in the morning

Hope those of you still planning on comming to SD rat trapping get piles and piles of them!!!!!!

[calvin]

I kind of grown fond of the wire/wood debates myself. I have both but have gone to the wire as I seem to be able to narrow them down better gaining more length. However, what sized wood stretchers you use would have an effect on length. Mine could be narrower so overall I think I lose some length with MY wood stretchers. I also end up losing a push pin or two here and there. Found them with my feet and had one of the dogs chewing on one the other day. Figured the vet bill would have far offset any gains I could have made with the wood and put them away for now.

I like hearing the pro's, though....but I just got back from Wiebkes and they only use wire. Also the NAFA fur handling tapes in regard to rats encourages wire. I/m not done with wood yet but at I am faster with wire...and that preference can come down to volume vs time a guy has at the time. I found the creeping of fur up the wire (when clothes pinned) comes from too wide of a stretcher. Narrow them up a bit and it doesn't seem to happen...but all rats come in different sizes, too. Always pros and cons I guess.

[robertw]

The NAFA fur handling tapes are getting old. When those tapes were made they weren't scanning rats yet.

[calvin]

Point taken Robert. I wonder if they would still advocate wire in the scan world. Been selling locally and shipping to FHA...still the old standard. Maybe things will change if all go to scan but don't know that it would do anything for more surface area. Seems even a slightly too wide wire stretcher will kind of keep pulling outwards from the wire tension...which I believe can cause the pins to move upward. I suppose if a guy wanted maximum surface area, he would have maybe 3 different sizes of stretchers for maximum stretch. Sizing the stretcher to the rat size somewhat...but now we maybe into more of a time/vs size gain issue that may or may not pay out.

I was going to ask Wiebke today about the wood vs wire to get is perspective along with any pros and cons he sees. Like usually, I forgot, though. Heading back in a couple weeks and will try again.

I know he grades by length, damage and feel of the leather. I suspect the "feel" part of the grade that wood gives may have a benefit to price paid out.

[trappnman]

I don't believe wood gives ANY total extra size, if done right on both mediums.

I measured a lot last year- the ONLY reason I was thinking of going to wood was thei nternet, and like many things on the internet, the relaity didn't match the tale.

I do like the look on wood.

I hear from those against wire- I'm not going to do this, do that, on wire- well duh- maybe thats why your wire rats are poorer than your wood rats.

When the buyers tell me wire over wood, I'll take THEIR word for it.

a heavy rat is a heavy rat, wire or wood.

A paperback is a paperback, on the carcass, green or put up.

A rat is what it is on length- properly put it up on either wood or wire, and you bring out the length thats there.

if you think wood will change all that- go for it!

for the individual who got posts deleted, knock off the nonsesne

[renny1]

Robert,
"Have you ever watched them scan rats for size? Do you understand that it all depends on the shortest point of the skirt."

Sounds like you know how the scanner works. Can this shortest point be the belly or the back? The opening cut would be critical in keeping belly and back the same length if belly is scanned.
The deep V that a wire stretcher makes goes away on wood and fills in the side to make a straight skirt or at least straighter. Since they scan for square centimeters to the shortest point it seems to me that length/width are important and straight skirt is essential. What are your thoughts on the belly scanning? Do they do it or not? And where is the top cutoff on the scanner? eyes? mouth? Not meant for just Robert if anyone else knows. Thanks.

[thebeav2]

Part one:
Thickness of the leather.

First of all you can't make the leather thicker, It Is what It Is.

Here's what happens when you place a green rat hide on wire. First you have to compress the wire to get the hide on the form. Now your form Is acting like a spring and placing constant pressure on the green hide. Then you have a constant opposing pressure created by the drying hide. What this does Is THIN the hide and as the hide dries and Is being thinned out It loses more moisture thus you get a papery feel and sound from that hide. This will get you down graded In the final Inspection.
Now this Isn't as noticeable when you have a GOOD rat to begin with but when you have a sub par rat to begin with It just Intensifies the problem.
Why squeeze the form to make It smaller? why not just have them bent down to the right size to begin with and let the hide dry normally with out all the pressure being created and thinning It.
Like Robert said there Is no way a clothes pin Is going to hold a drying rats skirt In place.
Wire Is OK If you get them narrowed down In the shoulder area.
Next season when I have some rats I'll take one and put It on wire and then scan It at NAFA then I'll take that same rat and put It on MY wood and scan It and we will see which one comes up with the most square Inches. Want to take any bets?
Big buyers like Webkie and Groney have all their rat hides sold to a overseas buyer they normally don't see a final grade like we do when we ship to the Auction.

Like I said before In a strong market It makes no difference what you use. BUT when things go south you need all the help you can get.

A LGE Rat measures 13.5 to15" a 2XL measures 16.5 and over so If you can go from a 15" rat to 16.5" rat you have gained two grade sizes . And that's all you have to do Is pull down that skirt area 1 1/2 inches. I think that 2 grade sizes Is going to make you more money.

[thebeav2]

a heavy rat is a heavy rat, wire or wood.

A paperback is a paperback, on the carcass, green or put up.

I dissagree

[calvin]

Beave,

Do you know what sized wood you are using. I mean, width across the bottom?

I bought a dozen last year and the seller (at convention) asked what size. Not knowing, I took the ones just slightly narrower than normal wire. After narrowing my wire stretchers down quite abit, I/m finding the wood maybe a tad wider...coupled with the width of the wood, and I think I/m losing length with MY wood stretchers. Maybe I/ll shave them down...or only put the XXL rats on them as you don't get the side pull.

I try and get most of the side tension out of my wire...this adds length I/ve found and keeps the skirts down.

[trappnman]

"a heavy rat is a heavy rat, wire or wood.

A paperback is a paperback, on the carcass, green or put up.

I dissagree "

and I disagree with your disagreement- and also think you are eggarerating, by a long shot, the "springingness" of the wire on a good wire stretcher.

your theories are yours, mine are mine- I'd imagine we both have put up enough 1000s of rats to form an opinion-

try and get most of the side tension out of my wire...this adds length I/ve found and keeps the skirts down

exactamondo

Like Robert said there Is no way a clothes pin Is going to hold a drying rats skirt In place

clothespins aren't needed, and have never used them, to keep the skirt right where it should be-

don't want to act like putting them on wire is rocket science, cause it for sure ain't but there are tricks to getting all the length thats there, and keeping it there.

I gave one example and Calvin concurred, about keeping tension off the wire until its fully in place to get length AND keep the skirts down. Another trick is you don't just pull them down, you rotate them down in a back and forth manner, from shoulders on down, releasing tension as you go. Then you LOCK the clamps front and back.

heres a bet beav- I'll put a rat on wire, we will measure it- then you try on wood- I'll bet you that the difference is minimal, at best.

Why squeeze the form to make It smaller?

you are not squeezing the wire to make it smaller.

The purpose of squeezing the wire is to remove the tension as the rat is put on. The tension is then gradually released, as the rat is worked on. sounds like lots of foolery, but its simple and quick.

on small rats/kits, I have "bottomless" stretchers, some wired at certain widths, others left open.

It loses more moisture thus you get a papery feel and sound from that hide.

I don't know if you ever have trapped true paperback rats. You can take 1000 rats from the winona pools, and 10 from creeks 20 miles away, and the difference is night and day. Its all in the leather.

as far as over stretching- what do you call pulling the sides down so they create a straight look with the mid sections? Either you aren't getting maximum length vis a vis middles, or you are over stretching the sides, are you not?

[rk660]

Ill have to jump on the WIRE side of the fence. I truely doubt its any big bucks difference. If its a dime-quarter more, but takes 2x the time.....plus large outlay in cash to get set up with boards when you own plenty of wire.

AND, if one busts his ass 5-7 weeks open water in fall....does some ice trapping when conditions are profitable...then 7 more weeks open water in spring..... TIME is definatly a factor to be considered...

If you still screwing around putting rats on boards.....at such time as open water in spring where 200/day can be the norm....your missing the boat.

You need to be killing when killing time comes around....not messing with trying to get extra 1/4" and 1/2" on boards. Your picking up nickles, when your missing the dollars just in front of you.

Stretchers-I do best with the Newhouse type on smaller rats. I have a bunch that say peerless on them, and about 1" narrower base than most other strechers, they do real well with the smaller rats too. Trick is-getting more lenght with a slighly narrower stretcher, but not having pencil like pointy nose/neck. You need a slightly narrower strecher to accomplish this. Most are too wide. Once you get a big enough rat, it dont really matter, you cant really f(*& them up.

BTW-I did an 11.17 AVE at NAFA last year--no misprint--11.17. ALL ON WIRE. I didnt see anyone with wood come even close to that last year. And Ida done 12.50 on wood?---very very highly doubt it.