No doubt about global warming

[PamIsMe]

This July was the hottest month recorded on Earth, ever—beating the previous record, which was actually just set the July before.

motherboard.vice.com/read/july-hottest-noaa-nasa-climate-environment-global

Also the hottest year ever recorded.

Warming isn't debateable, the cause is what is debatable. In any case, how could it hurt to curb our excesses and get away from using fossil fuels?

Pam

[trappnman]

I agree.

whats frightening, is the ignoring of science by some in power

[trappincoyotes39]

Pam why ? Because unless you get every major country doing such as you want then it will never makes any change to so called global warming, the atmosphere does not stay over the US so we can be be super clean, of China, Japan, Korea,Russsia and others use cheap and reliable fossil fuels won't make a difference globally. That is science.

Also what are you replacing fossil fuels with exactly?

[bblwi]

So part of your argument is that if others don't why should we? That may make sense but does not say that warming is not occurring, but even if it is if other nations don't change why should we. One of the reasons we can is that we do have the wealth, technology and science to research and create new energy models that may be more beneficial for us than what we currently have.

Bryce

[trappincoyotes39]

Ok what are we replacing fossil fuels with?

To be honest have you noticed what the cost of tier 4 compliant engines have done to the diesel market? To save a little bit on emissions the cost have been staggering here in the US and has put a damper on some business and a burden to others. Engines have gone up in price by 3,000-5,000 because of R&D and the demands to keep HPmup for need applications turbo chargers have to be applied to many of those engines.

So easy to say we will do R&D on alternatives, but what will be the end market price for consumers? If a business cannot put a product on the market at a fair cost how much will they spend doing R&D on something that will price itself out of the market early on or add a major burden to the end consumer? Or do we not care?

Name another country that has Tier 4 compliant in place? The cost for many business has taken a 10-20 percent jump just on this one aspect alone.

[bblwi]

We don't know if the cost of not doing R&D and investing in new energy sources is more costly than the changes that are being initiated or demanded and or recommended. When one compares the cost of the few newer units with those that have had 70 plus years or more of usage and are common place then sure those costs look high, so did a computer 30 years ago with less capacity than a smart phone has today. Look at the thousands of miles of fiber-optics laid down in the late 80s and early 90s to replace the cables and then the cellular market and the internet came along. A lot of that fiber never got used or way underused and we are surviving that change as well.
On another note we need to realize that our population is increasing but also condensing into smaller geographic regions and thus other methods of travel and energy system may well be affordable and desirable when 350 million Americans live in 20-25 metro areas by 2050. We will need to find better alternative delivery systems for goods and services other than 18 wheeled fossil fuel vehicles as that system is the costliest system to deliver product. Growing locally is not just about a bunch of people wanting non GMO food or organic food it is about a smaller foot print when it comes to producing CO2 and using non sustainable non renewable resources.
Fossil fuel energy has a dominant place today due to supply and current lower costs. What fossil fuel energy does not create is large amounts of employment when compared to the production and gross value of the production worldwide. To find jobs for millions more and 100s of millions more coming into the workforce other industries will have to grow exponentially to hire that many people.
One of the main reasons that companies look to developing nations for growth is that many of those nations have high rates of unemployment when compared to the USA and that creates a real opportunity to find and keep low cost labor and the small wages that are paid unlike here raise the lower income earners significantly and they buy the products being produced. China is a nation that made it difficult for their citizens to buy their production as they wanted to export goods to bring money into the country, but mostly to their government so they could continue their control over the large population. To service 300-400 million elderly coming on board China will need to reinvent how they fund retired persons and also how they will deal with immigration to bring on board the workers that are needed for the future.
I am sure that nations like China, Russia and Japan with stable to actually declining populations and rapid growth in elderly are happy to see how we want to build walls and keep immigrants out.

Bryce

[trappincoyotes39]

Sure we do and the cost will be high because of the guidelines to be met. We tried E85 a disaster and now look where farmers are today? We want nuclear energy until it comes time to place the u its, no one wants them by there house, we have wind but then many compliance about birds etc,etc. we have solar been using that for years but not feasible for large scale production, then Hillary says, " we are going to put a lot of coal miners out of business" yet her plan for that is what exactly?

Many demonize fossil fuels but have to come up with an alternative that works .................

We can keep trying in the mean time some in our govt wil penalize what we have to the point it cost the consumer more and more everyday.

[trappnman]

is there anything, in the world, you aren't opposed to?

wind power is everywhere there is wind- elec cars are flying out of the showroom- demand for oil is dropping

TC- when you go to work at the buggy whip factory today- tell your fellow workers all is well

the biggest problem I have, are people that deny science. My mind just can't understand those that turn their back on knowledge.

[redsnow]

I'm all for new energy supplies, but I don't understand this comment from Bryce:

"So part of your argument is that if others don't why should we? That may make sense but does not say that warming is not occurring, but even if it is if other nations don't change why should we. One of the reasons we can is that we do have the wealth, technology and science to research and create new energy models that may be more beneficial for us than what we currently have."

I'd like to know about this new technology and science!

I'm not impressed with "wind power".

If you get right down to it, our country needs new and better nuclear power plants. Wind power won't supply our energy needs! And electric motors won't cut it either. Ask anyone that's ever operated a battery powered fork lift. It's like working in slow-motion, compared to using a gas lift. Twice the time, and half the work accomplished.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman where did I say I am against wind? It is the anti culture that has an issue with wind, they all vote for democrats each election cycle. You never heard of the groups that claim wind turbines are killing millions of birds annually?

I have been around wind turbines out west and in NW Iowa never seen a pile,of dead birds laying about? Talk to the anti use crowd about wind. They used to give tax breaks and incentives for wind much of that has went by the way side because of this crazy lobbying against wind.

Also in many areas one needs to get the Power from the turbine field into the main line, in some areas one I know really well,the cost to do such was 35-40 million dollars, investors where not keen on that idea without govt hekp which never came. They had some of the best wind readings in the US but still NO turbine filed there today.

Yet the govt taxes the hell out of fossil fuel motors and all the Teir 4 money 100's of millions where does that all go?

In Germany they do not use gas powdered engines for much, I know a guy that lived there for a period of time had to mow his lawn with an electric mower, really limits how much of a lawn you can have and the time spent mowing and money spent replacing electric mowers.

[bblwi]

E-85 is not a major shift in energy systems, it was and is a tweak on internal combustion engines and fuel types and that is all. It also came at a time when hybrid technology was rising fast and that continuing to grow. E-85 resulted in lower efficiency per mile driven but really was all about leaving the personal transportation system pretty much intact With the hugs shift in population to large centers with less open road driving the hybrid will increase a lot more as prices come down and fuel mpg's hit 40-60 plus as city driving is where the big savings comes in fossil fuel for a hybrid. Auto companies really like 0% financing as more people pay much higher sticker prices for their autos and even with a 0% rate the companies are making money use loans to sell cars.

Bryce

[trappincoyotes39]

0 percent is the only way new vehicles are moving period that and the extending of payments our to 84 months. Again lots of the auto makers money tied up into loans with more than a small risk due to high sticker prices. They have to be willing to assume more risk on the credit if they want to keep moving vehicles. If the economy takes a downward turn again, lots and lots of repossessions will be taking place. We will be bailing out automakers all over again. The number of people,using a bank for an auto loan is about nill these days.

E 85 is a dead duck, done and over. Once the 1.00 per gallon susidy went away that ended E 85 .

Hybrids are nice until one has to replace the power cell (battery) that adds a lot of additional cost on a vehicle that runs 10-15 percent higher to begin with. I checked into a hybrid until I found out the cost of cell replacement. Ouch no way was I going to,pay more up front and then the cell at 3,500 5 years down the road. 3,500 buys alot of gas even at 26-28 MPH.

[bblwi]

Most hybrid batteries are warranted for 7 years and the reports are there are very few complaints. My former boss has had his now for 8 plus years and it works fine.
0% percent financing has been around for over a decade if not longer in some form so this is not new stuff and yes this allows the sellers to get more for their cars. Ford has had many years where their stock lost money and the business lost money yet they paid dividends so that indicated that financing cars was the way to make money so they are creating a way to move cars and so are not most if not all other major auto firms.
I did not state E-85 was viable I indicated my thoughts as to why it is dead. When the hybrids first hit the market heavy in say 2007 and 08 $3.00 per gallon was about the breaking point for the additional cost based on 15k per year and 40 mpg instead of 25. That has changed now as the hybrids are comparatively lower cost today than 8 years ago and with longer life than anticipated the cost now for 15-20k per year is down in the $2.40 range thus many purchasing hybrids at this time.
Seven year financing for autos has been around since the late 1990s. Leasing is now an option many that don't drive a lot are doing as they get new autos every 3 years and thus never change tires and many don't change oil until 6-10k.

Bryce

[trappnman]

yes poor oil companies- taxed to death, and they still manage record profits.

dang- computer is getting slow- time to add more coal..................

[trappnman]

Ask anyone that's ever operated a battery powered fork lift. [

ask me- I did it for years. never had a battery problem

[bblwi]

Just look at all the golf carts today compared to internal combustion vehicles not so long ago. Many plants and facilities are now wanting battery power as it improves air quality in their facilities.

Bryce

[redsnow]

Hmmm, guess I have somewhere around 4,000 hours of forklift experience, maybe 5.

Just say we'd have 100 pallets, full of stuff out in the parking lot, and we need to move them 200 yards. If I'm on my propane lift, racing someone on an electric lift, I'll be finished before they pick up skid #50.

I've operated electric lifts. Sure they are nice and quiet, don't have much power going up a grade, slow going up and down. And where do you reckon that electric power is coming from to charge up the battery? Around here it's from coal!

[bblwi]

There are probably very good reasons that firms choose to buy and utilize forklifts of all sorts and yes in your area coal would create the electricity and in other places it could be Nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, natural gas, clean coal etc.

Bryce

[redsnow]

There are a bunch of wind turbines across the Allegheny Mtn's just west of here, all tied in with the power grid from the Mount Storm power plant.

I forget the exact figures, but it's something like this: 50 wind turbines, all online, will generate in a months time, about the same amount of power that the Mount Storm power plant generates every 15 minutes.

It's just a drop in the bucket, compared to the coal fired plant.

My opinion, we need to use nuclear power more. Wasn't it back in the 70's when the last nuclear power plant was built here in the US. I think that's right.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman so sick of heating about oil companies and profits, business is in business to make money. What do you think their profits are when gas is 1.99- 2.15 a gallon versus 3.25? Their inout cost do not change just the price of crude on the open market. Also every price how much a refinery cost to build in the US today? That never gets mentioned when some talk profits.

Bryce asked Toyota about the cell life and warranty and they stated 5-6 years is avg without a loss of energy after that they tail off, the guy was honest. Where do you think all that lead come from to make batteries? Why does a car battery cost 100.00 today?

A coal plant is far cheaper to build than a natural gas plant, over time depending on location and price of either can make a difference in KWh cost to consumers.

Reds now here is the problem with Nuclear power, everyone thinks it is a great idea but no one wants the nuclear plant in their neighborhood. We here all the talk about this energy source until it comes time to place it. Then people are all up in arms and picketing against them going in. In this country will be a very long time before one would ever see wide use of nuclear energy. Specially with all the young "earth" lovers we have today. Their thinking is they do not like us using fossil fuels or coal but do not like any other options so far to date either, silly really.