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Post by trappnman on Aug 5, 2015 18:18:15 GMT -6
I am definitively, definitely without a doubt in the camp of a fresh rusting trap causes coyotes to avoid stepping over it.
I've just seen too much personal evidence that such is true, and find that the Carmens on fox, and OG who state that he uses a gal of urine over 50-60 traps if in rusting conditions helps confirm it.
There is a school of thought that there's so much rusted material the coyotes come across in their daily travels, buried pieces of farm implements, rusted barbwire, rusted junk buried and not, etc. that they aren't put-off by a small amount of rust on a trap OR wax with rust in it.
I don't think they pay any attention to old, dry rust. I'd agree about the rusted stuff in the ground being all over- but two things are different (well 3) 1) undisturbed dirt if buried 2)odd smells coming from somewhere and 3) fresh rust smells even to me- the science says a gas is released- is this gas a avoidance thing?
don't know
Another thought would be that since everybody seems paranoid about contaminating their wax because wax absorbs odors readily, possibly when the trap is buried, wouldn't the wax absorb the odor of the earth and everything is a moot point??
my wax is contaminated by any measure. I got dye colr, and half the time I wax its just power wash and wax- so heavens knows whats in it- but it masks, or changes, the rust smell- again, proof in the pudding.
interesting thought about wax absorbing the dirt smell-
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 20:08:27 GMT -6
1. I am definitively, definitely without a doubt in the camp of a fresh rusting trap causes coyotes to avoid stepping over it. 2. I've just seen too much personal evidence that such is true, and find that the Carmens on fox, and OG who state that he uses a gal of urine over 50-60 traps if in rusting conditions helps confirm it.
3. but two things are different (well 3) 1) undisturbed dirt if buried 2)odd smells coming from somewhere and 3) fresh rust smells even to me- the science says a gas is released- is this gas a avoidance thing? 4. but it masks, or changes, the rust smell- again, proof in the pudding. (1.)- I know, you've said that for years and I don't doubt you for a seconf! (2.)- That is a true statement. (3.)- Yes rust does smell because it releases a gas for the "oxide/oxidation" process I believe. (4.)- "masks, or changes, the rust smell". Now that I'd not thought or heard of!! Interesting concept!! Which in a way is saying that even though the melted wax has literally removed most of the rust fron a rusty trap due to the heat exchange (like millscale on steel does in hot oil) that the suspended rust particals don't have or can't release an odor because of the wax itself? Interesting!
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Post by braveheart on Aug 7, 2015 4:17:24 GMT -6
I see this info on Rust.I took lessons from O Gorman he had several rotten rib cages with maggots crawling all over them laying on top of his traps.I picked up a trap and he went out and set them.The he set the trap and lured it up and called it good.Other time before he had a dog box had a topper dogs bedded on top of traps same more rib cages.I a person uses lots of good urine and lure and bait how is the rust smell going to over power the rust?
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Post by trappnman on Aug 7, 2015 5:40:55 GMT -6
I don't believe it overpowers the smell of lures/bait- but I also KNOW that rusting traps- traps that were not rusting before you put them into the ground- cause tremendous refusals for me. There are very few things I consider absolutes with coyotes, but this is one of them.
old rust, traps that have that almost dyed look to them but its just surface, old rust- don't seem to have the same effect.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 11, 2015 6:52:42 GMT -6
thinking on this- its quite apparent, at least to me, that wax does zero in masking or eliminating odors.
or at least the wax I use.
same pot for years, just adding wax as needed- its discolored, and for sure has particles of "stuff" in it including rust, animal odors, etc.
so, in no logical way, could waxing be said to be done to eliminate odors, the best I can conclude is that wax changes odors
or, one could conclude, that waxing stops rusting, and prevents it from reoccurring.
I keep thinking back to my first trip trapping out west- Wiley E gave me a bunch of traps to use (jakes sterlings, etc) and those traps were rusted- also drags, that were also rusted, and chain that was still oil fresh- yet, I had no problems whatsoever with digging and/or avoidance
interesting to think about once you start breaking things down-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 11, 2015 17:14:53 GMT -6
Contaminated wax not a good thing what so ever, not because of avoidence but digging at the trap itself.............
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Post by trappnman on Aug 12, 2015 5:59:40 GMT -6
how do you get uncontaminated wax after using it once?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 12, 2015 18:38:43 GMT -6
I make sure only clean traps go into the pot of wax.
max cleaning of traps before re dye and re wax. Any trap that caught a skunk is marked with a yellow zip tie. I know these get set in a creek or pond for a period of time then power washed before getting re waxed.
I learned the hard way one year of not getting traps good and clean and I could smell odors in the wax and had a lot of dug up traps nothing to do but start over with them or face a lot of frustration.
I have little problem changing out wax and starting with a fresh pot every 3 rd year. Doing ADC and doing traps 3 times a year and then every other year the wax was brand new.
Out west I added sage bows to my trap bins sage every where and has an odor I had no problem being Imparted into the wax.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 13, 2015 6:48:20 GMT -6
if you re-dye, and then wax- you are going to get contaminated wax.
I can't see any way around it.
if you take your wax pot and warm it up, and then turn it over so the wax slides out- you are going to see particles in it. and particles mean contamination.
I've used black dye, red dye, hulls, etc- and all, even if washed off after the dye, is going to transfer
I used to change out wax every year, then every couple of years- now haven't for many years- and to be honest, I see no difference in results on the line.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 9:37:59 GMT -6
That one time where I had surface rust on my traps after drying and only waxed them, the wax kettle turned orange from the rust. Not only did the particulate settle to the bottom, a lot stayed suspended enough that the wax stayed orange-colored just like you see a back tint from dye. I never used that wax again for my land traps but used it for my water traps. So I've come full-circle again, about whether or not the dye we use is just coloring the rust or actually changing it to a different compound. I don't want rusty wax regardless of color.
I will say this, I have not had traps being uncovered or seemingly avoidance observed and my simple hammer test seemed to tell me there are some tannins in the black crystal dye being sold.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 13, 2015 14:33:28 GMT -6
Tman dye in was is one thing sure I get that as well, but I am talking improperly cleaned traps etc skunked up making the smell of skunk upon dipping in wax etc.
I wouldn't chance 5 year old wax and many batches through it.
My key to dye in the wax again is if was gets really black I change it out, again why get risky if one doesn't have to? if your sloppy on cleaning traps then at some pint animal odors etc, will cause problems with wax. Again I like a natural pungent odor in my trap totes to add a odor, sage, cedar etc. Dow here cedar is very common nothing to add a fee sprigs to a tote of traps. helps or not could care less makes me feel better.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 13, 2015 14:36:55 GMT -6
Renno has a new dye out I think it ightmightthe be cedar? Don't know for sure but is sold as a natural US based dye very common in the US gives traps a medium black color. Would like to handle and smell some to figure it out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 15:18:32 GMT -6
Renno has a new dye out I think it ightmightthe be cedar? Don't know for sure but is sold as a natural US based dye very common in the US gives traps a medium black color. Would like to handle and smell some to figure it out. See photos on page 2
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 13, 2015 18:23:07 GMT -6
Well did you buy some never? At the price if I can find some at a convention will buy some just to see what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 18:39:52 GMT -6
Well did you buy some never? At the price if I can find some at a convention will buy some just to see what it is. No I haven't TC, all traps were ready to rock & roll before this dye question and the Renno ad was seen.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 14, 2015 10:44:49 GMT -6
the more I think on this, the more I become convinced that there is no way dye and or/wax eliminates odors.
I don't believe its possible to use wax, and to not leave some type of odor, and particles in it.
Wax and dye, I am now coming to believe, simply changes the odor- changes it, masks it, "neutralizes" it- in short, changes the odor of the trap, the dye, etc in such a way that the odor no longer matters to a coyote.
and I also am starting to believe, that the main purpose of the wax, is to STOP the rusting process. I have read about many times in certain climes- that waxing etc is just a ritual, but has nothing to do with success- and I'm starting to fall within that school- that as long as you have no rusting occurring, then it doesn't matter with what you treat traps (within reason) as long as there is a barrier to keep fresh rust from occurring.
the results speak for themselves as to the worth of waxing-
I dye, because its just as easy to boil w/dye as w/o.
but only once a year- rest of time I just clean (somewhat good, but certainly not perfectly) the trap and wax-
but for sure- if I take traps off a line, and try to reuse them- I get trouble-
so on one hand- doing nothing to rusting smelly traps shows up at the set with digging and avoiding the trap area-
and dyeing & waxing, or just plain cleaning (a good soak, with a little bleach, rinse off) and waxing- eliminates that. I can say without hesitation- that I see NO difference in traps dyed and waxed, vs just waxed and agree with those that say dye doesn't matter- but again, just as easy to toss in some dye
I'm really starting to re-access, this whole trap and odor thing- and am thinking- that since waxed traps work better, we jump to the conclusion it eliminates or "traps" odors-
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Post by bobbrennan1 on Aug 14, 2015 14:11:21 GMT -6
I guess no one ever catches any coyotes in iron rich soils or next to old farm equipment either!
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Post by trappnman on Aug 14, 2015 14:57:40 GMT -6
old farm equipment or iron rich soils- don't have an odor coming out/under/around a disturbed place in the landscape.
iron rich soils would be a macro situation
if my pronouncement that I think RUSTING is different from RUSTED, let me again say imo it is so- and we know, the active rusting process produces heat, and more importantly (again imo) gases- that do, disturb coyotes.
one of the best in the coyote business O'G thinks the same, as do some of the best I nthe fox business the Leggetts
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 17:12:01 GMT -6
the more I think on this, the more I become convinced that there is no way dye and or/wax eliminates odors.
I don't believe its possible to use wax, and to not leave some type of odor, and particles in it.
Wax and dye, I am now coming to believe, simply changes the odor- changes it, masks it, "neutralizes" it- in short, changes the odor of the trap, the dye, etc in such a way that the odor no longer matters to a coyote.
and I also am starting to believe, that the main purpose of the wax, is to STOP the rusting process. I have read about many times in certain climes- that waxing etc is just a ritual, but has nothing to do with success- and I'm starting to fall within that school- that as long as you have no rusting occurring, then it doesn't matter with what you treat traps (within reason) as long as there is a barrier to keep fresh rust from occurring.
the results speak for themselves as to the worth of waxing-I dye, because its just as easy to boil w/dye as w/o. but only once a year- rest of time I just clean (somewhat good, but certainly not perfectly) the trap and wax- but for sure- if I take traps off a line, and try to reuse them- I get trouble- so on one hand- doing nothing to rusting smelly traps shows up at the set with digging and avoiding the trap area- and dyeing & waxing, or just plain cleaning (a good soak, with a little bleach, rinse off) and waxing- eliminates that. I can say without hesitation- that I see NO difference in traps dyed and waxed, vs just waxed and agree with those that say dye doesn't matter- but again, just as easy to toss in some dye
I'm really starting to re-access, this whole trap and odor thing- and am thinking- that since waxed traps work better, we jump to the conclusion it eliminates or "traps" odors- I agree, I believe wax "seals-off" oxygen so there is no further rusting going to take place if there is some rust on the steel as would be with a "membrane-type" coating. As I stated previously, when you dunk a rusty trap in wax, most of the rust particulate comes off due to the heat but remains in the wax.So you are also saying that the dye , if it contains tannins which changes the rust to a neutral compound OR not, makes no difference either way! What is a common belief for many decades, maybe from the start of time is that wax will absorb undesirable odors causing avoidance. If we follow your philosophy, it wouldn't matter if there was a contaminate in the wax or the waxed trap was exposed to a supposed contaminate during storage or transport?You see, what we are talking about is experience vs a historical belief! that has been perpetuated for decades and possibly incorrectly assumed! You can be a "thinking" trapper or a "follower"! The question remains though-if you can cause wax to smell like a skunk, can you make wax smell of a less subtle contaminate such as rust?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2015 5:36:45 GMT -6
So after a season of use, the traps take on some rust waiting for cleaning & waxing. After cleaning( car wash, boiling in detergent, soaked in bleach/water, etc) we get the traps clean but the traps continue to rust while drying and waiting for waxing so they take on more rust or at the least continue to rust. Would everybody be comfortable waxing those traps with obvious surface rust on them?
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