If You Sing it- Bring it!

[Deleted]

As everybody should already know on this board, I don't belive everything "those who say it to the greatest magnitude" tell me!  Yup, I'm a "free-thinker" and a proud, F-N "over-thinker" so when somebody states something that is "implied" as fact, I will challange that person to prove it to me and everyone else reading.  Subjective thoughts based on observations and personal experinces are only considered fact as personal opinions to THAT peraon, not me and have no objective basis whatsoever!  I don't need or believe the BS when someones says "well so-in-so says so" crap, that's nothing more then BS from "those who said it to the greatest magnitude"!!

For the 2nd time in the past year, I had a person write that- "The dye today Is a synthetic product and Is not a natural substance.
I didn't say It caused traps to be dug up I said It had no benefit as to protection and It does add a distinct odor to your wax that Isn't natural."  

OK, if that is so I ask on that board- "OK, there's a bunch of suppliers on this board, if that is true, show us some documentation such as a MSDS sheet or other similar documentation telling us there's no tannins, natural or otherwise or a chemical compound that reacts with rust in a similar manner as tannins in the present products. It's one thing to tell it but it can be a whole other thing to prove it!".

As of now(7:13pm ET) nobody has stepped-up and offered one tiny bit of documented proof that what is written is a fact and over a 1000 views have been recorded!  If you "sing it- you better F-N bring it!" if I'm reading your post!!

[braveheart]

I only wax my coyote traps.I see no need to dye them.The new traps out of the box I boil them in lye to get a little pitting to help the wax hold.I tried some red logwood last year and let them soak for a month. Didn't have time to wax didn't have any digging problems.

[trappnman]

well, we know that the present dyes, do ptorect traps from rust. Thats obvious to anyone that has dyed traps- obvious because all one needs to do, is to dye traps and let them out in the rain, and compare them to undyed (or waxed) traps left similarly in the rain.

a question that is left, is whether the dye is just a coating, or a bond.

I tend to beleive it IS a bond........but thats opinion.

I find the debate that it adds odor to a trap to no doubt be true, but then 2 questions come to mind- 1) is it an odor that matters and/or 2) if it matters, why then (with wax pots using the same wax for years) is not the odor of the wax (and all it contains)a concern as well?

in the opinion catagory, I am of the belief that you will NEVER set a trap, that the coyote is unaware of. the key is to make thme unconcerned.

I do know a rusting trap, causes concern. Whether others agree matters not, I see a systemic pattern of avoidance/digging at rusting traps- I do not see that with either dyed traps, or dyed and waxed traps.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2015 5:58:16 GMT -6 trappnman said:

well, we know that the present dyes, do ptorect traps from rust. Thats obvious to anyone that has dyed traps- obvious because all one needs to do, is to dye traps and let them out in the rain, and compare them to undyed (or waxed) traps left similarly in the rain.

a question that is left, is whether the dye is just a coating, or a bond.

I tend to beleive it IS a bond........but thats opinion.

I find the debate that it adds odor to a trap to no doubt be true, but then 2 questions come to mind- 1) is it an odor that matters and/or 2) if it matters, why then (with wax pots using the same wax for years) is not the odor of the wax (and all it contains)a concern as well?

in the opinion catagory, I am of the belief that you will NEVER set a trap, that the coyote is unaware of. the key is to make thme unconcerned.

I do know a rusting trap, causes concern. Whether others agree matters not, I see a systemic pattern of avoidance/digging at rusting traps- I do not see that with either dyed traps, or dyed and waxed traps.

Exactly right!  That's why I challanged that board to show the facts pretaining to the chemical composition of commercial logwood dye being sold today.  The silence is deafening!   Must be one of those elusive, "everyone knows" deals.

BTW, Back in the 70's I never waxed a trap, just dyed but I didn't have any coyotes then just fox.  As we all have had to deal with saturated ground, I did not experience immediate or quick rusting of my traps.

[blackhammer]

This is a little off topic but do any of you speeddip coyote traps?

[trappnman]

I have used speed dip in the past. I actually used it a couple of years-

I had lots lf digging and/or avoidance of te trap in doing so- BUT at the same time I was both learning, and had an unexploited population of coyotes to trap- thus, I had some good years using speed dip. I was during this perios, during an unusually wet year, that I first started misting/spraying sets with urine- and my first experience in seeing the positve effects doing so hadon digging/avoidance.

after a few years with the dip (and a year with F-1), I had some free time nad set out a winter trap line. the ground was bare, very cold (zero range) and we put out 12 sets, all with traps that had been speed dipped or f-1'd in early fall, and traps hanging since. We set those set,s had a couple of incehes of dry snow- and the next day the tracks told a terrible story- lots and lots of tracks at the set- avoidance of the trap and slight digging at some traps. We ran those traps for 2 weeks, saw the same scene multiple times (we did catch a few coyotes during that period) so pulled the traps. boiled, dyed, waxed some traps- went out a week or so later- used the SAMER sets, frozen i nstakes, etc- and the digigng/avoidance stopped and i mean stopped.

that was many years ago, and I've dyed and waxed ever since

[blackhammer]

Thanks Steve, guess I should just buy your video. lol

[trappnman]

or come along some day next fall.

[turkeyfanatic]

Is FMJ a speed dip? Is this the same as F-1 that you are talking about Steve.

I've always dyed and waxed my traps but thought about trying FMJ.

Thanks

[trappnman]

never tried that- it would be a speed dip, whether the same as F-1 (which is similar or maybe even the same as latex paint according to some) I do not know.

I know guys in other areas, that like the dips- well, kind of like kissing your cousin...each to their own.....

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2015 13:43:02 GMT -6 turkeyfanatic said:

Is FMJ a speed dip? Is this the same as F-1 that you are talking about Steve.

I've always dyed and waxed my traps but thought about trying FMJ.

Thanks

I don't know speed dips from smead dips but I do have some experience with F-1.  It's a membrane that contracts/tightens as the water evaporates from the F-1 after the application.  A good, tight multiple coating of F-1 requires a good drying time in between coats for this evaporation to take place and minimize the chance of having rust grow under the membrane which is a common complaint with F-1.  Being a membrane, any sharp corner can become a source of loss of protection because once the membrane is broken, moisture WILL get under it and rusting WILL start and travel under the membrane.

[braveheart]

I remember years ago Milligan came around with little clinc's.Was pushing some speed dip.I used it and never had coyotes did a trap until I applied the speed dip that year.Took it all off then met Ron Hansen.He just gave me a big smile he showed me the ropes of trap prep.

[aaroncurtis]

Jun 14, 2015 17:18:58 GMT -6 @never said:

As of now(7:13pm ET) nobody has stepped-up and offered one tiny bit of documented proof that what is written is a fact and over a 1000 views have been recorded!  If you "sing it- you better F-N bring it!" if I'm reading your post!!

Maybe they are just waiting for the water to warm up a little or the lead sheep hasn't left the barn yet!

[blackhammer]

Jun 15, 2015 11:10:47 GMT -6 trappnman said:

or come along some day next fall.

Might have to do that sometime.

[trappincoyotes39]

Not all dye is the same hence the red powder and the black crystals, am I a chemist Nope? But logwood dye is also used to color fabrics in a natural way as well, you can get it in colors and adding iron to it makes it darker.

how well does dye work for keeping rust down? lots of variables in that soils conditions, time of year humidity and quality of steel in the traps all factor into how well dye adheres and helps prevent rusting actions of steel.

One can get the same from walnut hulls as the Tanic acid etches the steel and the deep black color is about the same as black crystal dye.

Have always dyed and waxed traps for maximum protection , did speed deep dip twice found no time savings as cleaning them as more of a pain than dye and wax and its removal. Plus the other obvious reasons. nothing like a boiling pot of dye and the smell of such.

[trappincoyotes39]

For those with some time on their hands

waynesword.palomar.edu/ecoph4.htm

[Deleted]

This is what Steve and I are talking about.  Dying or coloring was a non-issue in my challange.

""Rust Converters

Rust converters are solutions or primers designed to be applied directly to a rusty surface to convert residual rust on steel surfaces to harmless and adherent chemical compounds. Unlike the standard scrape, prime, and paint regime, the user does not have to bring the surface down to bare metal. These in turn are able to develop a protective film (usually phosphates) on the metal surface that protect against rust.

Rust converter available at The Rust Store

Rust Conversion Mechanism

The tannin is the heart of a rust converter. It reacts with the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable blue/black corrosion product. Tannins are a group of water- and alcohol-soluble natural products extracted from a variety of plants. Little is known about their true structure as they are complex and variable. Industrial research in the effectiveness of tannin solutions as rust primers began in the 1950s. Since then, tannic acid (a tannin) has become a standard conservation treatment for corroded iron artifacts found on archeological sites. (reference)""

[trappnman]

so if I am understanding it right- the fact that the trap turns black, is evidence that a bonding has occurred?

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2015 8:16:46 GMT -6 trappnman said:

so if I am understanding it right- the fact that the trap turns black, is evidence that a bonding has occurred?

I should have put the quote I used in italics or boxed it so folks would know it's a quote from another website that sells rust converters.

I don't know about "bonding" because it says "It reacts with the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable blue/black corrosion product."  So, the better coat of rust your trap has, the more uniform and complete the change to a "stable" state (iron tannate).  STABLE being a key word meaning to me, no longer making rust.  The "blue/black color is then a signal that the iron oxide(unstable compound) has been chemically converted to iron tannate(stable compound)

Here's a study that may interest folks.  At the very end of the paper it says that it doesn't last long in an outdoor enviornment.
www.cci-icc.gc.ca/resources-ressources/ccinotesicc/9-5-eng.aspx

[Deleted]

OK, so there is a reason for rusting traps IF you are using a tannic based solution to "dye" them because there is a chemical reaction that changes the iron oxide to iron tannate which will prevent or impede further rusting.  If those people who say that today's logwood dye is synthetic and doesn't do anything but change color are giving honest , fact-based info that there is no tannic acid in today's "logwood dye", then why would anyone "rust" a trap??  Also, I want to point out the deafening silence of the trapping suppliers.  

Directly above this post is a banner from Schmitt Enterprises.  Now maybe Schmitt doesn't come on here very often but I know he has at times, regardless, still no answer to my original question from him or any other supplier!!  That being said, I am pointing the crappy finger at ALL suppliers with their failure to answer my question!!!  I will not accept blah-blah from"those who said it to the greatest magnitude" because they mean absolutely nothinhg to me and their opinions are nothing more then subjective bullshit!

Now there are probably some, if not the majority on this board that think I'm asking too much, over-thinking too far, etc. and I say bullshit!  I'm saying if there are FACTS that are being purposely withheld in order to sell more logwood dye under false pretense, spit it out, man-up for christsakes and try and be honest with an answer because the question was honestly asked!!