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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 27, 2015 7:32:15 GMT -6
Easy answer dye and was traps and catch critters.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 11:05:41 GMT -6
Easy answer dye and was traps and catch critters. Easy answer eh? Will here's another easy question that's directly related to the subject looking for your "easy answer" TC. Do you or would you wax rusted traps?
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Post by trappnman on Jun 28, 2015 7:06:34 GMT -6
it would be interesting to know- but at the same time- I cannot but help concluding that IF the dye turns color, which it does- then it MUST be having a chemical reaction
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 7:57:04 GMT -6
Interesting to say the least but with the deafening silence from the suppliers I figure they either don't know crap OR do know but refuse to discuss if there are tannins i the dye they sell.
The point of me asking TC if he waxes rusty traps has everything to do with whether or not the dye is just coloring the traps (COLORING RUST) or causing a chemical change so that it's no longer rust. I think back to the many times rusty traps and to the degree they're rusted has been discussed on this board. So, if the smell of rust is a negative thing for coyotes wouldn't rusty smelling wax also be a negative thing? If the present dye is just that, a coloring agent, then if its used on rusty traps don't you still have rusty traps except the rust has been colored?? This IS the whole reason for asking the question for crying out loud!
Some years ago I changed out my wax and the old wax I saved and used to wax my mink traps. My mink traps were rusty so I didn't care and tossed them in and waxed them. The heat of the wax removed almost all of the rust from the steel BUT turned my wax a pretty rust color and I could see particulate suspended. How many of us would then toss in our coyote traps into the same wax? Well, if today's dye is a coloring agent alone without tannins and you wax you pretty black traps, your wax will turn black but it's still black rust in the wax!!!
Everywhere you read on trapping forums, in trapping books and videos is that wax absorbs odors and folks go to extremes to avoid contamination to the wax both in the pot and on the trap. Now if rust-smelling traps are not an issue for coyotes, cool beans but folks can't say one thing and do another without sooner or later being ask what's up with the contradiction.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 28, 2015 11:08:25 GMT -6
check this out never- search.yahoo.com/search?p=how+to+test+for+tannic+acid&b=&fr=ie8--------------------- on the contaminated wax- now there is something that has always boggled my mind insofar as I cannot believe that wax does not give out a mixed bag of odors. I used to cut off bototm of te wax at the very least, if not changing it over every other year- but I haven't done anything but add wax for a number of years now. and while I start each season out with boiled & dyed and waxed traps- during season at least once ir not twice I redo used traps, and then I'm just spraying off good, and then waxing. And can honestly say I see no differnce in reactions to either method. At the same time- I DO, each and every time I try to use rusting traps, see a markable difference. One "rule" that I find to be true, is the 3 day rule- if yo umake a catch, and don't recatch something in 3 days, replace the trap.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 9:47:08 GMT -6
Thanks Steve, there were several good reads on that web page. So it's obvious due to the cost of tannic acid if there is any in "today's Logwood Dye" it's damn little!! That being said, I do my own testing of stuff that doesn't make sense similar to my testing of lures and baits before I use them. Notice in the photo a digging hammer on the ground under the traps. Since my trapping got cut super short last seasonI clean-up everything, dyed & waxwd over two months ago. At that time I just dropped the hammer in my dye and left it there as the dye cooled maybe 3-4 hours. Once dry I just store the hammer in a tote outside that isn't air tight so realitive humidity is in effect. Part of my hammer is an old leaf spring which is badly rust-pitted so after over two months I see no rust breaking up from the pits or on any surface. I took the scrapper and scrapped anarea off to the pits for a closer look. I then took the hammer out back to where I have a sprinkler and stuck it in the ground within the arc of the sprinkler and left it there for 6-7 days(3 sprinkler cycles) When I took the hammer out of the ground I didn't wash it ff or scrap, I used a wiskbroom to clean it. Previously scrapped area Top of blade which is a piece of bar stock and not pits. Head that was exposed and side of blade It's tough for those just looking at photos to draw an opinion let alone a conclusion as to the value of my little test. Never the less, it is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 10:25:09 GMT -6
You've all seen this ad haven't you? Oh the irony of it! A closer and possibly readable look
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Griz
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Post by Griz on Jun 29, 2015 10:30:18 GMT -6
Thanks Steve, there were several good rads on that web page. So it's obvious due to the cost of tannic acid if there is any in "today's Logwood Dye" it's damn little!! That being said, I do my own testing of stuff that doesn't make sense similar to my testing of lures and baits before I use them. ... Since my trapping got cut super short last seasonI clean-up everything, dyed & waxwd over two months ago. At that time I just dropped the hammer in my dye and left it there as the dye cooled maybe 3-4 hours. Once dry I just store the hammer in a tote outside that isn't air tight so realitive humidity is in effect. ... With what did you dye?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 11:03:44 GMT -6
Thanks Steve, there were several good rads on that web page. So it's obvious due to the cost of tannic acid if there is any in "today's Logwood Dye" it's damn little!! That being said, I do my own testing of stuff that doesn't make sense similar to my testing of lures and baits before I use them. ... Since my trapping got cut super short last seasonI clean-up everything, dyed & waxwd over two months ago. At that time I just dropped the hammer in my dye and left it there as the dye cooled maybe 3-4 hours. Once dry I just store the hammer in a tote outside that isn't air tight so realitive humidity is in effect. ... With what did you dye? Mine came from O'Gorman's and is called ""Original Black Log Wood Crystals" but by the look of the packaging it could be the same as F&T's "Black Powder Trap Dye".
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 1, 2015 5:18:59 GMT -6
Never you seem bored LOL. I have always dyed and waxed and will continue to do so as it offers me the best for max steel protection. We all know a thin coat of wax is gone after a catch for the most part so using dye and wax affords me the best protxtion of my investment.
Outside of that if you want to just wax or just dye and it works in your area so be it. Again lots of variables to consider on what one does or wants to do for trap prep.
Out west soils where very harsh on steel, here in the Midwest not as harsh.
I find more value in the black crystals than the red and I have used Petes sleepy creek liquid with great results as well.
Each to their own. Different climates and soils will have different effects.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 6:23:32 GMT -6
Never you seem bored LOL. Nope, not bored at all! What I do admit to being is a hardass and when folks try to pass off conjecture or hearsay as fact, I'm in my natural element. I seldom question or challenge personal opinions that are expressed on trapping forums because of what they are personal opinions. It's when someone takes the opinion based on subjectiveness and trys to turn it into a fact that makes me question/challenge. I just read where an experienced trapper purposely rusts his traps, skips the dye and then waxes them.( as of since, he has clarified his stance) I don't know why he rusts a perfectly good trap BUT he wasn't trying to tell anyone that was THE way everyone should do it and I'm cool with that. I do know this though, you wax a rusty trap and as soon as you dunk the trap in the wax, you have rusty wax and THAT is a fact. Anything such as mill scale, red rust, black rust, or iron tannate, WILL immediately come off the trap as soon as it enters the hot wax and will be left in the wax. So, I've come full circle with your answer TC, if rust is a problem for coyotes, WHY would a trapper want rusty wax?? If today's dye doesn't have tannins in it then you've only got colored rust. You wax your traps with colored rust and you have colored, rusty wax!! If coyotes don't like a rusted trap WHY would you purposely use a trap with a rust-contaminated wax???
I don't know if it's how I write that makes my questions un-understandable or unanswerable or what but throughout this topic I was 1/2 surprised that no supplier stepped-up. I'm completely surprised though that few trappers reading this thread had an opinion about the possibility of contaminating their wax kettle with rust IF THE DYE BEING USED HAD NO TANNINS IN IT!! This is the whole point of my original question and of course me taking exception of someone trying to blow smoke up my arse!!
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Post by trappnman on Jul 1, 2015 8:04:25 GMT -6
I've never seen any difference with the black or the red
TC, I would have to disagree strongly about the difference between east and west insofar as rusting and soil on the traps. few places in the west, have near the humidity of the Midwest and states like MN, and with the majority of the rock type being limestone, here, can't see how western soils could be harder on things. Its one reason out west, stuff built 150 years ago is still standing- here, its dirt.
I understand Nevers thoughts- but I feel, based on what I've read, while the logwood powder might not be logwood, it must contain tannic acid. one of the links I posted, shows a test for tannic acid, and its simply adding a substance to an iron solution- if it turns black- tannic acid is present.
so if I'm understanding it right (and if I'm seeing the pictures right, your experiment shows this) the mere fact that the iron turns black, means bonding occurred.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 9:03:47 GMT -6
Along the same lines as what I've tried to explain and describe with "today's dye" there are folks who use lye(caustic soda), vinegar, etc. to rust their traps. What folks don't realize is a phenomenon called stress corrosion cracking. The microscopic surface of all metals may look smooth(such as a coil spring) but in reality the surface is covered in microscopic cracks/fissures. If you have a part such as a coiled spring that hand of course is stressed in order for it to be a spring any acid type solution introduced creates excelarated corrosion(far faster then if the part was not under an induced or created stress) down in the fissures /cracks. The little + & - ions are circulating to beat the band until the acidic environment changes to a neutral one. So, you start out with say a .125" diameter spring and after introducing an acid to it, lets say that from the bottom of the fissures through the cross section, the diameter is now .120". The next time you do the acid deal, your spring is now down to a .115" diameter and so on. The diameter of the spring, due to it's loss of working diameter now has only the strength of a .115" spring, not the original .125"!! Acid(vinegar) or caustic(lye) alone have this impact on steel that is in a stressed condition. Little do these folks know that if you use a lye-based solution to clean and rust traps, vinegar actually will neutralize the lye(caustic soda). My example is exaggerated in order to explain the principle but is absolutely FACT. Depending on the quality of spring doesn't mean there will always be catastrophic failure but most certainly does mean there will be a reduction of the cross-sectional size which is direct relation to strength! This is FACT and easily researched!! My guess is that most folks who use caustic or acidic solution to rust traps never know that they've weakened the springs even though it's literally impossible for it not to happen!! Many, many times during my years welding for DOW I had to repair caustic pipelines and in order to weld them without cracking( remember when stress is introduced(weld and weld cooling) I'd go to the cafeteria(easier then going to the aspirin plant for some acetic acid) and get some vinegar and mix it with water to a 10-1 ratio and flush/wash the area or joint I needed to weld BEFORE I welded it. If I hadn't performed the neutralization 1st the weld would have cracked right behind my bead as the bead was cooling. Chemistry & stress! Yes, I believe the product I used does have some % of tannins in it.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 1, 2015 19:36:59 GMT -6
Tman far more to things than humidity, soil make up I have found to be far more an issues than pure humidity. Gumbo and alkaline soils very hard on steel. I have found more Midwest soils to have a more neutral PH than soils where I was out west. hence one of the reasons Midwest soil grows better crops more soils fit that 6-7 ph range for sure.
The red and grey gumbo is as hard on steel as any soils I have worked in my life and varying states. Just a little mositure and in 48 hrs you will have some bad rusting taking place. In 5-7 days that traps is slick slime coated of rust. I wasn't in the sandy types what so ever . Hard pan for the most part.
I will take the soils of the Midwest and humidity over that gumbo for trap rusting any day.
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Post by northof50 on Jul 3, 2015 20:34:12 GMT -6
Organic chemistry was 35 years ago, and this has been an interesting read. Because I did not come off a farm could not get into the welding courses , but what I do know is spring steel has a 30 percent Damascus hardner and the C-Fe ratio resist rusting. Traps 30 years ago had more virgin steel in then not this re-processed stuff of today, the hardness is reduced so not to wear out the presses. Hunting partner has a tool and dye co and the re-jig after 150,0000 now vs 50,000 then - economics. Of the day..
Also consider the use of fertilizer today as 20 years ago, the potash salt is nasty on steel- just look at your car bottoms since it is the main road salt of today. And at 40 pound/ acre your trap does not stand a chance in touching a few kernels of salt P
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Post by flathead40 on Aug 1, 2015 19:58:36 GMT -6
I hope it's ok to bring this thread back up. After reading it, I had a question for you guys that are smarter than me. I have used all the above mentioned methods (except blackies liquid dye) at one time or another. I still to this day prefer sumac,walnuts to any of them. My question would be, why there would be any difference between the black logwood crystals/red logwood powder/ sumac and walnuts? I know it's different on my traps. Chemically why would there be? I'm not trying to say sumac is better than logwood, or trying to tell you my way is better. Just saying I can tell a difference but don't understand why there would be one. You'd think once it reacts with the rust, it would all be the same?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 20:30:08 GMT -6
That was the point of my thread-starter question Flathead. Folks had stated on trapping forums that the black logwood crystals and red logwood powder sold today were only coloring agents and do not contain tannic acid. It's the tannic acid that reacts with iron oxide causing a chemical conversion to a rust preventive compound. This is what the tannic acid in the sumac does with rust. I was asking the suppliers to prove whether or not the product they today sell has tannic acid in it or not or is it just a dye for coloring. Apparently there are a lot of trapping folks who aren't smart enough or thinking is to hard for them to understand the ramifications that just coloring the rust on your traps means you just have black rust and how many want to use rusty traps for coyotes??? How many of these same folks want to wax their cannine traps in rusty smelling wax??
I don't know if you read the entire thread here but I thought I pretty much forced the issue but not a single person could or would show me and the rest of the trapping comunity the truth on this board or the brown board. In fact while I was pushing and shoving the issue, the "who says it to the greatest magnitude" were on the brown board posting. One tried weakly to devert the thread but he made a mistake trying that chit with me and the other person who has his own forum and has stated on his board he had some college chemistry would not answer or post a reply.
So, if ya sing it ya better be able to bring it!!
For all practical purposes, I'm done with this thread!
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Post by RdFx on Aug 5, 2015 11:04:44 GMT -6
I use sumac berries, works great. Makes black traps, has light black pwdr residue, i spray or flush traps, hang , let dry , wax... Have waxed with residue on traps and didnt have any problems with yotes as wax had black tint to it... used next year.... good to go.... so havent flushed black residue off traps for 20 some years, good to go !
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Post by trappnman on Aug 5, 2015 14:04:40 GMT -6
I've used both hulls and sumac, and both work good- nice thing about walnuts and berries, is you can cold dip them if you want...takes time, but they will come out black as an ace of spades.
I guess the only reason I don't use either anymore, is because its easier to use the powder
Never- I still contend that since the trap is turning black, then it MUST be reacting with the metal,not just coloring the rust- or you would be able to wash it off, would oyu not?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 16:24:40 GMT -6
I've used both hulls and sumac, and both work good- nice thing about walnuts and berries, is you can cold dip them if you want...takes time, but they will come out black as an ace of spades. I guess the only reason I don't use either anymore, is because its easier to use the powder Never- I still contend that since the trap is turning black, then it MUST be reacting with the metal,not just coloring the rust- or you would be able to wash it off, would oyu not? OK, ya sucked me back in again! I feel that the consistency of the rust particle is so porous that I don't think you could wash dye out or off of it. So, black is black whether it's black colored rust OR a black, neutral compound that the rust has chemically turned into. You see what is bothering me under this "no tannic acid-yes tannic acid" is as you've said before, coyotes smell rust. If coyotes really do smell rust and and are put off by it, you wax a rusted trap regardless of the color, haven't you in fact contaminated your wax with rust??? So when these two yahoos mouthed-off that the stuff being sold today is only a dye(coloring agent) I wanted to know the truth. There is a school of thought that there's so much rusted material the coyotes come across in their daily travels, buried pieces of farm implements, rusted barbwire, rusted junk buried and not, etc. that they aren't put-off by a small amount of rust on a trap OR wax with rust in it. Another thought would be that since everybody seems paranoid about contaminating their wax because wax absorbs odors readily, possibly when the trap is buried, wouldn't the wax absorb the odor of the earth and everything is a moot point?? So now, maybe the question should be asked, are coyotes concerned or put-off by the rust smell? That's why I think when folks read my opening thread they never thought beyond that and considered the ramifications which really are far reaching beyond is it logwood dye or not!
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