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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 18, 2014 15:18:07 GMT -6
James the people we have been and are at war with today ISIS and possible future conflicts, can you honestly tell me they give a crap about the international laws?
Hasn't the past 15 years shown anything?
Bottom line is investigation ordered in 2008, had information in 2009 and now this comes to a head heading into 2015? Hum? Obama never did state he would pursue charges against anyone, just to vilify and denounce the use of such tactics. 5 years later people are clamoring for charges? Hum?
Semlls fishy to me once one sees the timeline and who knew what when. hard to throw stones at glass houses...........
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Post by trappnman on Dec 18, 2014 16:56:37 GMT -6
its doesn't matter if they give a crap about the laws of warfare- WE DO (or did and isn't that the conversation?)
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Post by James on Dec 18, 2014 18:52:16 GMT -6
TC, please answer my question. Is it okay that the enemy in some future conflict waterboards our POWs? Or should we prosecute them for war crimes if they do?
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 18, 2014 19:36:43 GMT -6
Jim that has been answered what have we done in the past 15 years? how many of these people have been brought up on charges? ISIS when do we bring them to court? Bin laden where was his day to stand trial? I would rather be water boarded than my head cut off. One leaves me alive and the other is sure death. The problem being with these enemies they would water Board you then behead you all in one day and not think anything of it. Is it OK for them to treat our POW's in that way? We have no control over it for crying out loud. Water boarding or be heading what is the option? You think if an enemy that got our people in this day and age wouldn't use water boarding because they are afraid of some lawsuit or UN sanction or fine? Come on. Love your sign line They use the guise of religion to convince people they are just in their terrorist actions, true religious people are silent in the deeds they do and they are good deeds. God is about faith and love, there is only one god. That is my belief and millions of others. if you have another belief so be it, doesn't make me an atheist as I have a belief in god and Jesus Christ.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 18, 2014 19:41:18 GMT -6
An atheist is someone who lacks of belief of gods or god. They believe no deities exists period.
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Post by James on Dec 18, 2014 20:19:55 GMT -6
Jesus loves torture supporters too.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 18, 2014 20:44:11 GMT -6
You are correct Jesus love all people, it is up to all people to love him back for the gift he gives all of us. no better time to think of him outside of lent than advent.
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Post by James on Dec 18, 2014 21:36:17 GMT -6
But why do some of the staunchest Christians support torture? They must think Jesus would hold the water bucket.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 19, 2014 18:16:26 GMT -6
Well many versions of the bible state an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
Are the standards by which Jesus wants us to live too high? Don't the demands he makes on his followers seem too difficult? "I say to you, love your enemies; and pray for those who persecute you?"
Can anyone really live up to the requirements of such a command?
The Law of Moses on retaliation which says, “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”, seems far more reasonable, and yet, is itself often misunderstood.
I once saw a bumper sticker that said: "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind". It was certainly clever, but it also missed the law's real point and intention.
In reality, the so-called "Lex Talionis" was not meant to encourage revenge. In fact, it was intended to put a limit to the vengeance a person could take on another who had caused him harm.
The Law was the basis for order and justice in ancient Israel. It forbade one seeking vengeance to take more than what was taken from him. If an enemy took one eye from me, I may only take one eye from him, no more than that. Without this Law, revenge would’ve been excessive. With this Law, the possibility of an endless cycle of vengeance was put to an end.
But Christ was not satisfied with Laws that merely put limits to the evil we can do. And so he replaced it with one that would not put a limit to the good that we should do.
And so the Lex Talionis, the law setting limits to revenge was replaced with the Law of Love, which calls us to a higher standard, precisely because it’s very difficult to live up to.
“Love your neighbor”, it says. But notice that after we’ve loved our neighbor, it tells us again, “love your neighbor”. [And in today's gospel, we are enjoined to see that even the enemy is encompassed in the command to love.] "Love your neighbor; love your enemy". And should we reply, "I have already done so", it simply answers us back, "then love some more", repeating the command over and over again.
One can never fully satisfy the Law of Love. For with this Law, love is made endless, limitless, and ultimately something which one must spend his entire life doing. Love then becomes an endless quest, a life-long endeavor, not vain and hopeless, but a quest whose fulfillment is the quest itself.
There was once a philosopher who said, “the standards of Christianity are either the standards of a madman or the standards of a God who has too much faith and trust in human beings”. The standards by which Christ asks his followers to live are indeed higher, more difficult, and more challenging.
But that’s because he has far too much trust in our ability to achieve the highest and most noble goals and aspirations life sets before us. We are after all, made in the image and likeness of a God who is fullness Himself.
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Post by James on Dec 19, 2014 23:20:21 GMT -6
So Jesus would hold the water bucket?
Jim
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Post by trappnman on Dec 20, 2014 8:34:52 GMT -6
Jesus has left the room.....
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 23, 2014 20:31:01 GMT -6
Jesus isn't gone on mere words...........
he is there, it is up to each of us to either hear him or not. he gave us free will for a reason. otherwise our world would be dull......... he offers every human being the same thing it is up to each to accept it or not......... Your choice.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 24, 2014 7:33:14 GMT -6
according to the Bible- isn't God omniscient?
if you accept that, then free will goes out the window
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 29, 2014 20:23:18 GMT -6
Yep,let's close gitmo . We had this guy then let him go and now we want him back and willing to spend 5 million! our govt is silly at times. Years after liberating an Al Qaeda operative from the military prison at Guantanamo, the United States government has put him on a global terrorist list and offered a $5 million reward for information on his whereabouts. The unbelievable story comes as President Obama frees more and more terrorists—including four to Afghanistan over the weekend— long held in the military compound at the U.S. Naval base in southeastern Cuba. The president’s goal is to close the prison, a campaign promise that dates back to 2008, by relocating the last of the world’s most dangerous terrorists. Still left at the facility are 9/11 masterminds Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM), Ramzi Binalshibh, Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, and Mustafa Ahmed Adam al Hawsawi as well as USS Cole bomber Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. Hundreds of Gitmo terrorists have been discharged over the years under a program that started with President George W. Bush and continued full-throttle with this administration. Intelligence report after intelligence report has revealed that many rejoin terrorist missions after leaving the military prison. In fact, Judicial Watch has been reporting this for years. Back in 2010 JW wrote about a report that the Director of National Intelligence gave Congress documenting that 150 former Gitmo detainees were confirmed or suspected of “reengaging in terrorist or insurgent activities after transfer.” At least 83 remained at large, according to the document. Now we learn that the U.S. government is secretly admitting that it erred in at least one case, the release of a Saudi national named Ibrahim al-Rubaysh. In late 2006 the Bush administration repatriated him back home under a Saudi Arabian “rehabilitation” program that supposedly reformed Guantanamo Bay jihadists but instead has served as a training camp for future terrorists. In fact, in 2008 counterterrorism officials confirmed that many of the terrorists who return to “the fight” after being released from U.S. custody actually graduated from the laughable Saudi rehab program, which started under Bush and continued under Obama. It turns out that al-Rubaysh is the poster child for the Saudi rehab’s failures. He’s a dangerous Al Qaeda operative based in Yemen and now, years after freeing him, the United States wants him captured. This month the State Department coined the “senior leader” of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) a Specially Designated Global Terrorist. “He serves as a senior advisor for AQAP operational planning and is involved in the planning of attacks,” a State Department announcement says. “He has served as a senior AQAP sharia official since 2013, and as a senior AQAP sharia official, al-Rubaysh provides the justification for attacks conducted by AQAP. In addition, he has made public statements, including one in August 2014 where he called on Muslims to wage war against the United States.” The U.S. government has also offered a $5 million reward for information that could lead to al-Rubaysh’s capture. The prize is part of a $45 million pot offered by the State Department’s Rewards for Justice Program involving eight key AQAP leaders, among them al-Rubaysh. Information on some of al-Rubaysh’s buddies could net informants $10 million, but he’s only worth half that, according to the U.S. government. The bottom line remains; The U.S. had him and let him go. Now it’s offering a chunk of change for his capture. Uncle Sam has paid out over $125 million to more than 80 people who provided actionable information that put terrorists behind bars or prevented acts of international terrorism worldwide. The reward program appears to be the government’s best hope of capturing this terrorist it once held.
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Post by James on Dec 30, 2014 2:39:17 GMT -6
"In late 2006 the Bush administration repatriated him back home under a Saudi Arabian “rehabilitation” program that supposedly reformed Guantanamo Bay jihadists but instead has served as a training camp for future terrorists."
At least you can't blame Obama for this guy.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 30, 2014 5:57:06 GMT -6
No we can't , but we can blame Obama and Bush for each letting go detainees and for both trying to win back some kudo's by letting these guys go and I say to those that think gitmo should be closed like a president Obama and others let's put these guys in your back yard then.............
We captured these people for a reason, spend time and lives doing so, then we want to let them go? Knowing full well these guys will go back doing what they where doing when we captured them. Again our govt at times is senseless.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 30, 2014 6:09:42 GMT -6
Tman Jesus Christ being omniscient has what to do with free will granted to all of us?
he isn't going to force people to believe and follow his words. Forceful worship would do what good?
it all starts with the belief and foundation and from there one goes.
That is what separates us from the animals we have the choice to decide on a life path and how we live each day. We all also have consequences for all of those actions earthly ones and spiritual ones as well.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 30, 2014 8:36:54 GMT -6
I thought you were raised a Catholic? Verses 4-11; “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”If you have free will, why is it that those called to heaven, are predetermined before they are even born? Jeremiah states that God knew us even before we were born in chapter one, verse 4-5: “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Isaiah 43:7 also presents evidence that God knew us before hand and had plans for us, “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”
Job 23:14 “He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store.”
I Corinthians 2:7 says “…we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.”
Galatians 1:15, “But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased.”
Read more: www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-teach-about-free-will-and-predestination/#ixzz3NOMZQsIP
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 30, 2014 18:15:12 GMT -6
Tman what your quoting is not catholic beliefs
Easy enough: For Catholics, when God "establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace" (CCC 600). Thus, anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved.
However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell. Indeed, the Bible cannot be any plainer than to say God is, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Pt 3:9). God wills all to be saved. To be damned, a person must willfully reject God’s "predestined plan" for his salvation (cf. CCC 2037): simple enough.
But for a Calvinist, Ephesians 2:1 declares all who are apart from Christ to be "dead in trespasses and sins." In that view, to say a man could freely choose to accept or reject God’s grace and invitation to salvation would be as ridiculous as saying a corpse could choose to raise itself from the dead. Moreover, for Jesus’ declaration that a man must be "born anew" in John 3:3 to include the freedom to reject the offer would be akin to saying a baby has a say in whether or not he will choose to be born.
Romans 9:18-22 is perhaps the favorite-among-favorites of Calvinists:
So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction . . .
Could Paul be clearer? Our salvation is entirely dependent on God’s unchangeable will. The free will of which the Catholic Church speaks is simply unbiblical. Shall we all join the local Calvinist ecclesial community, then? The answer seems—predestined.
This is from the Vatican :
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28
1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.
1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
1736 Every act directly willed is imputable to its author:
Thus the Lord asked Eve after the sin in the garden: "What is this that you have done?"29 He asked Cain the same question.30 The prophet Nathan questioned David in the same way after he committed adultery with the wife of Uriah and had him murdered.31
An action can be indirectly voluntary when it results from negligence regarding something one should have known or done: for example, an accident arising from ignorance of traffic laws.
1737 An effect can be tolerated without being willed by its agent; for instance, a mother's exhaustion from tending her sick child. A bad effect is not imputable if it was not willed either as an end or as a means of an action, e.g., a death a person incurs in aiding someone in danger. For a bad effect to be imputable it must be foreseeable and the agent must have the possibility of avoiding it, as in the case of manslaughter caused by a drunken driver.
1738 Freedom is exercised in relationships between human beings. Every human person, created in the image of God, has the natural right to be recognized as a free and responsible being. All owe to each other this duty of respect. The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in moral and religious matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of the human person. This right must be recognized and protected by civil authority within the limits of the common good and public order.32
II. HUMAN FREEDOM IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION
1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.
1740 Threats to freedom. The exercise of freedom does not imply a right to say or do everything. It is false to maintain that man, "the subject of this freedom," is "an individual who is fully self-sufficient and whose finality is the satisfaction of his own interests in the enjoyment of earthly goods."33 Moreover, the economic, social, political, and cultural conditions that are needed for a just exercise of freedom are too often disregarded or violated. Such situations of blindness and injustice injure the moral life and involve the strong as well as the weak in the temptation to sin against charity. By deviating from the moral law man violates his own freedom, becomes imprisoned within himself, disrupts neighborly fellowship, and rebels against divine truth.
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37
1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 30, 2014 18:20:52 GMT -6
1743 "God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him" (GS 17 § 1).
1744 Freedom is the power to act or not to act, and so to perform deliberate acts of one's own. Freedom attains perfection in its acts when directed toward God, the sovereign Good.
1745 Freedom characterizes properly human acts. It makes the human being responsible for acts of which he is the voluntary agent. His deliberate acts properly belong to him.
1746 The imputability or responsibility for an action can be diminished or nullified by ignorance, duress, fear, and other psychological or social factors.
1747 The right to the exercise of freedom, especially in religious and moral matters, is an inalienable requirement of the dignity of man. But the exercise of freedom does not entail the putative right to say or do anything.
1748 "For freedom Christ has set us free" (Gal 5:1).
Christ Has Set Us Free 1For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. 2Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. 7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view, and the one who is troubling you will bear the penalty, whoever he is. 11But if I, brothers, still preach circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. 12I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! 13For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
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